Woman who killed daughter to be sterilized!

Hey thats pretty cool! Better than serving time. Id give up my nuts to be able to murder someone.

That is disgusting......I agree she did a heinous thing by murdering one of her children but what right has anyone got to say...hey your unfit to have more children ...lets stop anymore from happening...where does it end....


The Chinese one child policy? Or hell..maybe we can have a lottery of all fit persons and the winner gets to bear life....

Yes it is a step towards controlling the population growth and one step further towards genetic enginieeering our infants.........

When has a woman had too many children? How does the author of a previous post define his "slut".. single parenthood? so what, many species in nature leave the child rearing to the female....nothing new there...I'd much rather a child be bought up in a happy well adjusted one parent family rather than a warring or abusive two parent family...Does a family have to have a 'dad' controlling it and bringing home the bacon.....to be a real family?


Did anyone stop to wonder why this woman killed her baby before they judged her and the posters called for her castration? Oh ya she just got out of bed one day and thought to herself, today i will kill my tiny defenceless baby....Nah, see guys, there is a story behind it, a reason why........a history..........something that built up into a crescendo of a climax...murder but...still there is a history that maybe needs to be understood before just labelling this woman.....


Anyhows those people out there ready to label people sluts and welfare bludgers.........I am sorry that these people do not live up to your perfect world..............and I am sorry they are not as perfect as you...............

From a slut with six kids who decided one day to be a single mother.......*Insert sarcastic giggle here.... ..like it just happens like that.......just like waking up one morning and deciding to kill a kid.........

Judges jury and exectutioners eh........







[edit on 19-2-2005 by Mayet]

This is idiotic. Murder does not equal surgery, it means long jail time.

Justice is NOT served.

Degrees Of Outrage

It's instructive to follow the discussion in this thread, and some of the inferences being made in this case.

Here are some facts I consider relevant, and I wish to call attention to them:

From the source article:
Carisa Ashe was charged with murder and faced life in prison if convicted. After two days of trial, Ashe, 34, admitted to voluntary manslaughter.

As a condition of her sentence, she has 90 days to get a tubal ligation or prosecutors can reinstate the murder charge, Fulton County Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes said in an order issued Tuesday.

According to prosecutors, Destiny Ashe had been shaken and hit so badly her brain swelled and hemorrhaged. She died Dec. 16, 1998.

This woman has admitted to shaking and beating her daughter to death.

She has been given an option: get a tubal ligation or face murder charges. In other words, she is being given a choice.

I have studied Eugenics and its history somewhat (its connection to Planned Parenthood is intriguing, among other things). I can understand concerns about eugenics, but think they are misplaced in this case.

We're talking about a mother of seven children who has a demonstrated propensity to abuse and, in this case, murder them.

I am unable to muster more outrage at the idea she's being given a choice between getting her tubes tied instead of facing murder charges than I am over the idea that she might indeed bring another child into the world -- only to suffer a similar fate.

I think a little perspective can go a long way when examining cases like this one.

That sucks it really does.....as I said she didn't wake up one morning and just decide to kill her child... there is a lot more factors in the equation...seven kids well i know how stressful that can get, maybe some of you should try it when your really really tired from lack of sleep and being woken up every hour or so for nights on end...sleep deprivation does strange things....Parents out there will understand what I mean with just one sleepless child..try a whole heap, try having a different child wake up at all different times in one night, try one going back to sleep and you just lie down and another one starts crying..........try falling into bed when the last of them is finally down, then to suffer nights and nights on end like that with the children all waking up in the morning with the first beams of sunlight and birds chirping........Where was her support network........Yeah I know I wasn't there but i can step inside and get and idea of how she was feeling..........

Thje judge was wrong, what right has he got to even give her that choice, what choice, its blackmail.....

she needed help long before this happened....

What "Right" Means

Originally posted by Mayet
Thje judge was wrong, what right has he got to even give her that choice, what choice, its blackmail.....

As far as I know, there is nothing illegal about the judge's actions, and he is acting within his legal authority. At least, I've seen nothing to suggest that he has done otherwise.

But I'm curious. You claim that the judge's decision is wrong.

What would your decision have been in this case?

Originally posted by Mayet

what right has he got to even give her that choice, what choice, its blackmail.....

she needed help long before this happened....

IMO - so-called "Shaken Baby Syndrome" needs some serious investigation. Pediatric guidelines have been revised recently to say that bleeding from the eyes etc is normal in newborns!!!!!!!



Excuse me very much - but bleeding from the eyes wasn't normal several years ago. This is evidence of congenital vascular problems.

....The guidelines go on to say that such bleeding is normal for about 4 weeks - after which, it is evidence of "Shaken Baby Syndrome." I don't think so.

True, abuse happens. ...But IMO - what's happening here is more evidence of an underlying infectious disease - covered up - and again, blaming the victims.

FYI - Hundreds of parents were charged with murder for Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) until authorities finally owned up and admitted SIDS was caused by fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD), usually affecting the electrical conduction system in the heart.

...Looks like "shaken baby syndrome" results when congenital FMD affects the brain, and destroys blood vessels.

Mayet is right - there is a LOT more to this story.



.

Originally posted by Mayet
Thje judge was wrong, what right has he got to even give her that choice, what choice, its blackmail.....

she needed help long before this happened....

I can't believe some of the other response here. Mayet is right, this woman needed help and she probably still does, and she probably won't get it.

Something has to be seriously wrong with a mother who kills her own child. It is not an act of selfishness, it is an act of severe illness. Ignoring that fact to applaud a judge who had the ability to get this mother help (though it shouldn't have come to this in the first place if people with mental illness had the proper acces to it) to me shows a serious lack of understanding and compassion.

The problem is not solved by sterilizing this woman and it sets a very dangerous precedent. As far as I can see the message is, instead of solving the problem (that this woman needs serious help), the judge chooses instead to see to it that since she won't get it , let's make sure we don't have to see her again to be reminded that the system is failing. I really think this is a sad commentary on society at this point.

Evidence Of A Coverup?

Originally posted by soficrow
True, abuse happens. ...But IMO - what's happening here is more evidence of an underlying infectious disease - covered up - and again, blaming the victims.

So you are claiming that the coroner and prosecutor in this case are lying?

That's a very serious allegation. You are accusing them of committing multiple felonies.

What is your foundation for this claim?

Do you know something about this case that they -- and we -- don't?

If so, please share it with us, because I, for one, am fascinated by your charges, and think they should be carefully investigated.

After all, you may be implicating yourself as a witness in a felony criminal case, and that's never anything to take lightly.

Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by Mayet
Thje judge was wrong, what right has he got to even give her that choice, what choice, its blackmail.....

she needed help long before this happened....

I can't believe some of the other response here.

The problem is not solved by sterilizing this woman and it sets a very dangerous precedent. As far as I can see the message is, instead of solving the problem (that this woman needs serious help), the judge chooses instead to see to it that since she won't get it , let's make sure we don't have to see her again to be reminded that the system is failing. I really think this is a sad commentary on society at this point.

Great contribution, Relentless. Thanks.

Originally posted by Majic
Evidence Of A Coverup?

Originally posted by soficrow

True, abuse happens. ...But IMO - what's happening here is more evidence of an underlying infectious disease - covered up - and again, blaming the victims.

So you are claiming that the coroner and prosecutor in this case are lying?

I didn't rule out ignorance, or a lack of appropriate medical or social education on the part of said coroner and prosecutor.

That's a very serious allegation. You are accusing them of committing multiple felonies.

No. I'm not. You need to pay attention.

What is your foundation for this claim?

Do you know something about this case that they -- and we -- don't?

The "shaken baby syndrome" issue is both medical and social. So-called "shaken baby syndrome" has all the earmarks of a disease called fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD). FMD is caused by a misfolded protein called a-smooth muscle actin (a-SMA), which appears to be an infectious prion.

FMD causes mutations in connective tissue stem cells and smooth muscle cells in the lymph and blood vessel walls, destroying vessel integrity. ...The disease is transmitted congenitally about 10% of the time and may cause a variety of different birth defects. Many of these defects are invisible, like those inside blood vessel walls.

What is Fibromuscular Dysplasia (FMD)?

The main diagnostic problem with protein misfolding and prion-related disorders is that there are no standardized tests to identify the diseases - they are diagnosed solely by their effects on tissue, called "pathology." The pathology focuses on late stage and acute effects; with FMD, acute effects include protein deposits that create blockages or "stenosis," and vacuoles that result in aneurysms.

For example,

"A 32-day-old boy died of recurring cerebral hemorrhages starting on the 4th day of life. Autopsy disclosed a remittingly ruptured saccular aneurysm of the anterior communicating artery. A 7-day-old brother of his had previously died of recurring subarachnoid hemorrhages as well. Nonaneurysmatic basal cerebral arteries showed remarkable histological changes partly resembling those seen in fibromuscular dysplasia…"

* A probably familial saccular aneurysm of the anterior communicating artery in a neonate. Childs Nerv Syst. 1993 Aug;9(5):302-5 Kuchelmeister K, Schulz R, Bergmann M, Schwuchow R, Vollmer E. Institut fur Neuropathologie, Universitat, Munster, Germany. PMID: 8252525

A significant difficulty in diagnosing FMD is that the pathology is often microscopic - finding the characteristic lesions, and thus evidence of disease, might require a nano-meter by nano-meter biopsy of the brain's blood vessels, with spectroscopic analysis. This is time consuming, VERY costly - and NOT in the budget for dealing with throwaway poor single mothers with "mental problems."

"A detailed post-mortem examination revealed FMD involvement of the intracranial vessels, not demonstrated by arteriography."

* "Fibromuscular dysplasia of cervico-cephalic arteries with multiple dissections and a carotid-cavernous fistula. A pathological study." Stroke. 1985 Mar-Apr;16(2):255-61. Bellot J, Gherardi R, Poirier J, Lacour P, Debrun G, Barbizet J. PMID: 3975964

Another difficulty in diagnosing FMD is that many fatal disease effects are dynamic, and can be observed only in living, functioning tissue. This limitation currently is documented with respect to the heart's electrical conduction system, but may be applied to the brain as well.

"Fibromuscular dysplasia of small coronary arteries has been described in several conditions: hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, Friedreich's ataxia, scleroderma, prolonged QT interval, Marfan's syndrome, progressive muscular dystrophy, tunnel aortic stenosis, mitral valve prolapse, and in the sinus node artery in sudden death."

* Sudden death and regional left ventricular fibrosis with fibromuscular dysplasia of small intramyocardial coronary arteries. Heart. 2000 Jan;83(1):101-2. Lee AH, Gray PB, Gallagher PJ. Department of Histopathology, Southampton General Hospital, Southampton, UK. PMID: 10618348
heart.bmjjournals.com...

Since SIDS first appeared in the 1960's, many parents have been charged wrongfully with murder when their babies died suddenly. However, unless the parents are wealthy and have the resources to force a full medical review, the cases are NOT reviewed or looked at differently. The anguish created by wrongful charges in SIDS is fairly well documented, yet the situation remains unresolved.

12 January 2005. Angela Cannings, who spent 18 months in prison for killing her infant sons, had her conviction quashed a year ago after judges ruled that expert evidence given by Professor Sir Roy Meadow had been flawed. (Sir Roy Meadow is a paediatrician and a former President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.)
...Campaigners and legal experts accused the Home Office yesterday of flouting human rights laws over its refusal to pay compensation..."
Cannings' compensation claim is rejected

....

Oct 18, 1999. NEW YORK, PRNewswire/ -- Researchers at Harvard Medical School have documented a physical abnormality in the brain stem that renders some infants more susceptible to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS), while researchers at the University of North Carolina have been developing new diagnostic tools and techniques that should ultimately allow physicians to identify infants during the fetal stage who are most at risk for SIDS and other developmental problems.
..."We have now identified a specific physical abnormality in this site," explains Dr. Kinney. "This abnormality can range from a complete absence of critical nerve cells in a small number of cases to a significant decrease in neurotransmitter receptor binding."
SIDS Risk Prevention Research Begins to Define Physical Abnormality in Brain Stem, Points to Possible Diagnostic/Screening Tools
Press Release

...

June 27 2003. "A group of Australian forensic experts and pathologists will join forces next year in a bid to set national standards for infant autopsies and a uniform definition of sudden infant death syndrome. ..."In Australia, we don't have a single definition of SIDS that everybody uses, we don't have a standard autopsy protocol to follow," Professor Byard said. "That means that everybody, particularly in smaller centres, is really following his own guidelines, and that's not a very good situation." ...If the workshop achieved a consensus, he said, it could lead to Australia becoming the first country to have an accepted national SIDS definition and standard infant autopsy procedures, which would ensure the accurate investigation of all infant deaths."
Experts to meet in bid to define SIDS

....

Child abuse is not a major cause of sudden infant death, according to a study.
...Previous research has suggested that as many as 40% of cases of sudden infant or cot death may be a result of deliberate abuse.
...However, a new study by a doctor in the north of England suggests the true figure may be much lower.
...Her study estimates that between 3% and 10% of sudden infant deaths may be murder.

Few cot deaths 'are murder'
...

"A radical overhaul of the way suspicious cot deaths are investigated is needed to avoid miscarriages of justice and torment for bereaved mothers, according to experts in the field. ...In the wake of the Trupti Patel case, where a mother was cleared of murdering her three babies, children's charities and pathologists said the investigations needed to be carried out initially by expert panels of doctors, before a decision is made to prosecute."

Call for an end to cot death court anguish

...

"An expert said there was a one in 73 million chance Sally Clark's babies died naturally - and a jury agreed. Sally Clark was ...condemned to life inside for murdering her two babies because - among other evidence - there was only 'one chance in 73 million' of the babies, born a year apart, both dying of natural causes.
But the discovery of a cot death gene means that the odds for a second death could have been as high as one in four - and that by hearing 'one in 73 million' the jury was presented with a simple, but false, probability.
...The new genetic research raises the possibility that Clark - and other women - have been the victims of an appalling series of miscarriages of justice in multiple cot death cases.
...A joint investigation by BBC's Five Live Report and The Observer has revealed a climate of suspicion against mothers who suffer two or more cot deaths, based on the 'crude aphorism' of top paediatrician Professor Sir Roy Meadow that, unless proven otherwise, 'two is suspicious and three is murder'. Sometimes known as 'Meadow's Law', it has been adopted by doctors, lawyers and the police.
...Microbiologist Dr David Drucker, who helped to identify the cot death gene, said of Meadow's Law: 'It's scientifically illiterate.' His is not a lone voice.

Gene find casts doubt on double 'cot death' murders

Three things stand out in cases of sudden infant death, 1) there are no standard autopsy procedures, 2) medical discoveries and scientific advances are not integrated into investigations, 3) new discoveries are still forthcoming which might explain natural causes, and 4) prion-related diseases are not recognized as a possible cause of death.

Despite the fact that SIDS has been around for more than 30 years - and parents are known to have been wrongly charged with murder - the flaws remain. The situation with "shaken baby syndrome" is much worse.

Following the mini-epidemic of SIDS in the 1980s and early 1990s, "shaken baby syndrome" emerged as an all-new cause of baby deaths. There is good reason to suspect the true cause of this emerging mini-epidemic is a new form of an underlying and evolving infectious disease, most likely prion-related, rather than an upsurge in violent abuse.

"In the 1980s and early 1990s SIDS incidence rose considerably. ..."It is much more plausible that the rise was related to a changing epidemiology of an infectious agent or agents, i.e. natural variation," "
* "Research "Flawed" and Clues Ignored" Arch Dis Child 2003;88:1031,1095-1100.

...

"Arterial angiodysplasias constitute an ill-defined entity comprising conditions of apparently very variable natures. Apart from arterial fibrodysplasia, the clinical features of which, if not the etiology, are well established, there exists a number of different arterial abnormalities, stenotic or aneurysmal, the significance of which remains unclear (dolicho-arteries, the Moya-Moya syndrome, etc.). However, the role of genetic factors and metabolic abnormalities in these conditions is uncontestable. They demonstrate both the authenticity of this group of diseases and the importance of metabolic disorders of the interstitial tissues in the majority of these vascular abnormalities."
[Anatomopathological aspects of arterial angiodysplasias] Ann Med Interne (Paris). 1983;134(5):444-50. Chomette G, Auriol M, Tranbaloc P, de Saint-Maur PP. PMID: 6651065

My point here is that "shaken baby syndrome" likely represents a changing epidemiology of FMD or another prion-related congenital disorder, NOT an upsurge in parental abuse. As it stands, we don't know because the appropriate tests and medical examinations are not made.

If so, please share it with us, because I, for one, am fascinated by your charges, and think they should be carefully investigated.

Regarding a "cover-up," the point is that the prion disease epidemics are not acknowledged officially, so changing epidemiology with respect to neonates is unrecognized.

Yes, the whole mess should be thoroughly investigated, and the gag oders on our scientists should be removed. Mad Cow-like prion diseases are epidemic and IMO - the extent of the epidemics is being covered up to protect corporations from liability, and to preserve future profits. Parents being wrongfully charged with murder is only one of the cover-up's impacts.

US Still Silencing Scientists
Mad Cow Madness

After all, you may be implicating yourself as a witness in a felony criminal case, and that's never anything to take lightly.

Your sarcasm betrays your own ignorance - not just your lack of knowledge, but also your ignorance regarding your own lack of education, intellectual receptivity and tolerance.




Further reading:

* Conduction tissue and SIDS. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1988;533:176-90. Ho SY, Anderson RH. PMID: 3421625

* Morphology, immunohistochemistry and morphometry of the thyroid gland in cases of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Int J Legal Med. 1995;107(4):187-92. Rothfuchs D, Saeger W, Bajanowski T, Freislederer A. PMID: 7599094

* [Comparative histologic and hormonal studies of the thyroid gland with special reference to sudden infant death (SIDS)]
Z Rechtsmed. 1986;96(1):31-8. Risse M, Weiler G, Benker G. PMID: 3716646

* Pulmonary vessels in SIDS. N Engl J Med. 1975 Feb 27;292(9):479. Mason JM, Mason LH, Jackson M, Bell JS, Francisco JT, Jennings BR. PMID: 1113831

* Prevalence of the factor V leiden mutation in children and neonates with thromboembolic disease. J. Peds. 133:777-781, 1998. Hagstrom JN, Walter J, Amatniek J, Bluebond-Langner R, Manno CS, High KA.

* Reversible serous retinal detachments in two patients with thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura. Arch Ophthalmol 103:1172-1174, 1985. Lambert SR, High KA, Cotlier C, and Benz EJ Jr:

Well researched, well thougt out, well argued informative post there. Thank you. A real eye opener.


What would my judgement be? was asked of me by a poster. Untill All the facts are in my hands..and I do mean all facts..and I am of clear and non bias and non emotional I cannot judge what the punishment should be...but I damn well know what it shouldn't be within the boundaries of humanity, freedom and this planets future.......

When you walk a mile in her shoes.........................

Originally posted by Majic
Degrees Of Outrage

It's instructive to follow the discussion in this thread, and some of the inferences being made in this case.

Here are some facts I consider relevant, and I wish to call attention to them:

From the source article:
Carisa Ashe was charged with murder and faced life in prison if convicted. After two days of trial, Ashe, 34, admitted to voluntary manslaughter.

As a condition of her sentence, she has 90 days to get a tubal ligation or prosecutors can reinstate the murder charge, Fulton County Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes said in an order issued Tuesday.

According to prosecutors, Destiny Ashe had been shaken and hit so badly her brain swelled and hemorrhaged. She died Dec. 16, 1998.

This woman has admitted to shaking and beating her daughter to death.

She has been given an option: get a tubal ligation or face murder charges. In other words, she is being given a choice.

I have studied Eugenics and its history somewhat (its connection to Planned Parenthood is intriguing, among other things). I can understand concerns about eugenics, but think they are misplaced in this case.

We're talking about a mother of seven children who has a demonstrated propensity to abuse and, in this case, murder them.

I am unable to muster more outrage at the idea she's being given a choice between getting her tubes tied instead of facing murder charges than I am over the idea that she might indeed bring another child into the world -- only to suffer a similar fate.

I think a little perspective can go a long way when examining cases like this one.

Proof Or Consequences

Originally posted by soficrow
Your sarcasm betrays your own ignorance - not just your lack of knowledge, but also your ignorance regarding your own lack of education, intellectual receptivity and tolerance.

My sarcasm is directed at your use of your own suppositions and pet theories to slander public officials in this case.

You may now add my skepticism of your attempt to turn the discussion against me instead of posting honestly about the actual topic of the thread.

That is how liars and charlatans respond to reasonable inquiry, not someone who believes what they post. I am not saying you are a liar or charlatan, but your attacks on me fit that pattern, and I recommend refraining from them if you wish to salvage some credibility from this exchange.

While there is a great deal of information in your posts and accompanying theory that I find interesting, my objection is to your substitution of opinion for fact.

If you define that as ignorance, then we have differing definitions for that word.

If you have proof of wrongdoing in this case on the part of someone other than Carisa Ashe, I'm just asking that you present it. You have posted all sorts of things at length, but so far, nothing that proves your allegations are based in fact.

Your claim that Carisa Ashe is wrongfully accused is a very serious one, and I don't see why my decision not to dismiss it out of hand should offend you.

Unless, of course, it's all a bunch of bunk that you want to post without anyone questioning it.

I'm questioning it, and insulting me is not a satisfactory substitute for honesty.

So what's the truth? What is your proof that Carisa Ashe has been wrongfully accused?

Knowing What Is Wrong Without Knowing What Is Right

Originally posted by Mayet
What would my judgement be? was asked of me by a poster. Untill All the facts are in my hands..and I do mean all facts..and I am of clear and non bias and non emotional I cannot judge what the punishment should be...but I damn well know what it shouldn't be within the boundaries of humanity, freedom and this planets future.......

So let me see if I have this straight:

1. You don't have all the facts.

2. You are not free of bias or emotion in your current opinion.

3. You cannot, by your own admission, currently judge what the punishment should be.

4. You are claiming that such a punishment shouldn't be “within the boundaries of humanity, freedom and this planets future”. (A typo? I'll go with “typo” on this one).

In other words, you don't know what the punishment should be, just what it shouldn't be, and this opinion is based on a lack of facts and colored by bias and emotion.

I hope you can understand the reasons for my skepticism regarding your opinion versus the opinion of the judge in this case.

The Green Mile

Originally posted by Mayet
When you walk a mile in her shoes.........................

Should I do that, then I would be walking in the shoes of an admitted killer of a 5-week-old baby.

I will repeat what appears to be getting overlooked: This woman has admitted to shaking and beating her daughter to death.

Your posts appear to rationalize the murder of a child, and that is extremely disturbing to read.

Destiny Ashe is dead, killed by her own mother. She will never grow up, never know anything other than five weeks of probable hell on earth. It took years to bring her killer to account for her death, which is itself a disgrace.

This seems to be of less concern to you than the fact that her killer is being punished for the crime, and in the process -- unless I am grossly misreading your posts -- you are implying that she should somehow be allowed to kill her children with impunity if she's too stressed out to deal with them.

Please reassure me that, despite the content of your posts, this is not actually the case.

And I mean this sincerely and not as an insult whatsoever, but if you are personally responsible for the care of children, please talk to somebody about how you feel about this.

Yes, I am worried about that. Seriously.

[edit on 2/20/2005 by Majic]

And I mean this sincerely and not as an insult whatsoever, but if you are personally responsible for the care of children, please talk to somebody about how you feel about this.

Yes, I am worried about that. Seriously.

Yes I have six children dear, The eldest is 18 and the youngest is six months old. Oh and yes I am a single mother..oh and they have three fathers between them..........So I am sure you can make your biased judgments of me from the tiny titbits of information I have given you. But it still comes down to this ...you have no clue outside your own comfort zone.

This seems to be of less concern to you than the fact that her killer is being punished for the crime, and in the process -- unless I am grossly misreading your posts -- you are implying that she should somehow be allowed to kill her children with impunity if she's too stressed out to deal with them.

Yes you are misreading my posts or only reading the parts of my posts your biased brain wishes to take in. Read again. Your posts show an extreme bias, lack of impartialality, a lack of the complete facts within your possession.

Your posts also sound like they have been taken directly from the site of BilloReilly

To quote

Destiny Ashe was an American citizen for just five weeks before her mother savagely beat her to death in Atlanta.

www.billoreilly.com...

and your words

Destiny Ashe is dead, killed by her own mother. She will never grow up, never know anything other than five weeks of probable hell on earth.

By the Way...that site contains a very biased account of the case...nothing along the lines of true journalism there. A sad example......and you...full of bias abd prejudice......

Originally posted by Majic
Proof Or Consequences

Originally posted by soficrow
Your sarcasm betrays your own ignorance - not just your lack of knowledge, but also your ignorance regarding your own lack of education, intellectual receptivity and tolerance.

My sarcasm is directed at your use of your own suppositions and pet theories to slander public officials in this case.

You may now add my skepticism of your attempt to turn the discussion against me instead of posting honestly about the actual topic of the thread.

In fact, it is the "shaken baby syndrome" diagnosis that is based on supposition, pet theories and dogma.

I posted about 2 linear feet of information about the topic, with references - and specified that the officials involved are likely ignorant rather than involved in a cover up. ...You are choosing to focus on one comment, about 1/2 inch of text out out 24, that offends your ego. This tells us all a lot more about you than it does anything about me and my motives.


Back to the topic:

There is a behind-the-scenes controversy about "shaken baby syndrome," asking whether or not it's a legitimate diagnosis. It's similar to the early debate about SIDS. ...The only difference between my comments and published scientific and medical arguments is that I identify prion diseases as the likely underlying culprit.

It may be time to look at the "classic shaken baby" and the case history reported by Lantz a little deeper. What else can be found in common besides alleged nonaccidental trauma in the "classic shaken baby" and tested and proved accidental trauma in Lantz's case report? Is there increased intercranial pressure? Is there hypoxic assault? What kind of hemorrhages were seen? Is it time to investigate whether it takes trauma at all to cause the findings?

In regard to the reports on retinal hemorrhage from the birth process in neonates: One glaring problem just leaps out at me every time I read about these hemorrhages disappearing in four weeks. It is that there is no mention that any child in the studies had any intercranial pathology when examined. Where do these studies take into account the infant with a nondiagnosed subdural at birth which grows as diagnosed by a rapidly enlarging head circumference? If an infant is suffering from increased pressure that is undiagnosed and possibly transient, would retinal hemorrhages persist beyond that four-week period?

I am grateful that there is a growing number in the medical community who are stepping back for a better look. It is unfortunate that fear of the backlash is preventing more from doing the same. I can imagine the absolute upheaval of our court systems and the medical community if it is revealed that traumatic etiologies need not be necessary at all in this "syndrome."

I feel that is the true motivation behind the constant drive to diagnose abuse even if there is none. How will all these "child advocate" doctors look then? Who will trust their medical opinion on anything after a revelation like that? Certainly I could never trust a doctor who doesn't know the steps of the scientific process, where first you form a hypothesis. It only becomes a theory after testing it. And if proved over and over again by testing, it may someday become a law.

All shaken baby syndrome is, is a hypothesis, and any doctor who is willing to help convict parents and caregivers based on a hypothesis needs to have their licenses revoked and return to school where they can study these very basic steps that I learned in seventh grade.


Re: Retinal signs in shaken baby syndrome-an ophthalmologist's perspective

.

Originally posted by Majic

1. You don't have all the facts.

2. You are not free of bias or emotion in your current opinion.
[edit on 2/20/2005 by Majic]

Don't you think your being a little hypocritial now? I mean you accuse Mayet of the above yet you yourself do not have all the facts...You have no clue about the womans feelings, her situation at the time, what was going through her mind or the reasons as to why she would do this, mayet is right you do not just wake up one morning and decide to kill your youngest child, No of us can judge this woman, and no one has the right to take away her right to have children, This is black mail, either you get your tubes tied or thats it for you...I mean what type of solution is that?

You also Accuse Mayet and others of being Bias yet you yourself are Clearly Bias! And im sorry to say but a little ignorant if you ask me. Its also a shame that you can't handle that maybe for once your wrong and have to make personal attacks for this.

I personally Know too how stressful having to raise that many kids can get, I helped Raise my brother and sisters and I can tell you there were times where I could of really snaped and done something bad to those kids, and eventually i left home due to it and other contributing factors, but i left before there was a chance to do something, if i had of stayed who knows what i could have done, im not a violent person but stand in our shoes and maybe u will realise. This girl may have been able to help her self if someone helped her, bringing in the factors of what was going on in her world at the time...But no one has the right to accuse her of being a bad mother, this can happen to anyone.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
This is idiotic. Murder does not equal surgery, it means long jail time.

Justice is NOT served.

I've been reading all the postings and yours come close to what I think with the exception of a long jail sentence.

This judge is mentally warped in my opinion and needs to be stripped of his judgeship!

The woman should've been sentenced to death, period!

As for her other seven children. Lesson taught!

Ad Hominem, Ad Nauseam

Originally posted by Mayet
Yes I have six children dear, The eldest is 18 and the youngest is six months old. Oh and yes I am a single mother..oh and they have three fathers between them..........So I am sure you can make your biased judgments of me from the tiny titbits of information I have given you. But it still comes down to this ...you have no clue outside your own comfort zone.

You have posted things that any reasonable person would be concerned about, including the impulse to harm children. Apparently, we will continue to disagree on just how disturbing that is, especially as it applies in a case involving the death of a child.

My fault for even mentioning that concern – despite the fact that you were the one who brought it up in this thread, not me.

I will accept that there is nothing I can do for them or for you. My bad, and I'll try not to make the same mistake again.

I did consider your statements (such as “as I said she didn't wake up one morning and just decide to kill her child... ”) to to suggest you think Carisa Ashe did kill her daughter, although you seem committed to post and support anything that may call her guilt into question. That's how it looks to me, anyway.

I'll drop it. The thread isn't about you or your children, and I'm sorry you brought it up and I fell into that trap. I'll learn.

Let's See Some Examples

Originally posted by Mayet
Yes you are misreading my posts or only reading the parts of my posts your biased brain wishes to take in. Read again. Your posts show an extreme bias, lack of impartialality, a lack of the complete facts within your possession.

I am capable of all the things you have accused me of. Now let's see some evidence.

Please show some examples, and I will try to learn from them. Please make them actual examples, however, and not made-up ones like the following:

Channeling Bill O'Reilly?

Originally posted by Mayet
Your posts also sound like they have been taken directly from the site of BilloReilly

To quote

Destiny Ashe was an American citizen for just five weeks before her mother savagely beat her to death in Atlanta.

www.billoreilly.com...

and your words

Destiny Ashe is dead, killed by her own mother. She will never grow up, never know anything other than five weeks of probable hell on earth.

Other than the fact that we're both talking about the same case, and both mentioned indirectly that Destiny Ashe was five weeks old, what does this prove? Nothing.

To address your claim directly: No I'm not paraphrasing Bill O'Reilly, and you haven't even made a half-decent case that I have. You're just clutching at straws and posting it, which is not a very honest way to post.

People don't post things like that unless they know they're wrong.

Not interested. Try sticking to the topic.

But Now That Bill O'Reilly Mentions It...

For the record, O'Reilly says Carisa Ashe “savagely beat” her daughter to death. I haven't seen the autopsy report, don't know, and try not to make assumptions – although all this information will have been available to the court, since that's what courts are for.

Nonetheless, I don't know for an indisputable fact that Destiny really was beaten to death, despite Carisa's confession and all the indications present here and in other accounts. It is appropriate and not at all wrong to say she did do so, because she pled guilty to it in court, which establishes it as a fact under law (even if it didn't happen, such is law -- “reasonable doubt”).

soficrow's allegations make me even more skeptical, because maybe, maybe soficrow is right, and Destiny died from causes mistaken for “shaken baby syndrome”. Just because I haven't chosen to drink soficrow's kool-aid on this doesn't mean I have dismissed his theories out of hand.

I try to keep an open mind where I can, but you are reaching well beyond your grasp with this ridiculous accusation and shameful, unconvincing attempt at character assassination. On the bright side, at least you're not good at it. That's commendable.

Frankly, that's what I see as the underlying issue here: Theories being subjected to skepticism, and how people react to that.

Some react better than others to the suggestion they could be wrong. If you are curious where I stand on that, I'll tell you flat out I could be wrong about anything and everything I have posted, said or believed.

All I ask is for a little proof.

And Here's Where I Pretty Much Give Up On You

Originally posted by Mayet
By the Way...that site contains a very biased account of the case...nothing along the lines of true journalism there. A sad example......and you...full of bias abd prejudice......

Now you're just being mean. You don't know a damn thing about me based on your own words, and yet you make charges like these nonetheless.

I respect your right to an opinion, whether it is right or wrong. I respect my right to comment on it, right or wrong. That's all we need, and all I want.

If you feel the need to attack me personally instead of my opinions, it's probably because you haven't even convinced yourself you are right. Please consider that point carefully.

I may want to trade posts with you further, but if this is all you have to offer, forget it. This sort of sniping is a complete waste of time and does nothing to Deny Ignorance. It is also dishonest and wrong.

Personal attacks? No thanks.