Trump Tax "Hoax" Would Blow $5 Trillion Hole In Budget Over Next Decade: Analysis

a reply to: FyreByrd

At that time in our history our tax system was very progressive - meaning that, at each tier, the tax rate went up - progressive in that sense not the usage of progressive today.

Its also true that we had a very strong economy, strong enough to finance the Man on the Moon project. The economy back then was probably the strongest it has ever been IN HISTORY (Nixon tried his damnedest to stop that though). You may well be right about that is the time these guys long for when they chant MAGA. However...

The top tax tier back then was 70%. That is right... SEVENTY PERCENT for the TOP tax rate.

I'm curious here. Can a analysis done by a group that endorses MoveOn.org, Media Matters, National Education Association, The Daily Kos and the AFL-CIO be trusted for accuracy? Forgive me if I don't trust partisan groups from either side. The in your face partisan propaganda from both sides has made me skeptical of any analysis attributed to them and this source is partisan at the highest levels. I don't trust what Trump has to say and I don't trust what Americans for Tax Fairness have to say. Should I trust either one?

How well has the current tax system served the middle class or small business owners? How well has it worked to keep jobs and manufacturing in the US? Why would anyone want to preserve it as it is?

I don't know, but have the Dem's put out an alternative tax plan that benefits the working middle class?

a reply to: Blaine91555

I don't know, but have the Dem's put out an alternative tax plan that benefits the working middle class?

Not that I have seen, but that is really not important at this point.

The Republicans are in control. They can do what they want to do, but even the Republicans cannot agree on things that have unified them for many years.

Obamacare for example.

It's about time we recognize that both the Dems and Reps are "Right-of-center" #sacks and we will not see favorable tax reform for the middle class until we understand what has worked before, what the middle class needs and force politicians to do work that advances that agenda.

Trump will not fix our financial situation.

Enter long winded diatribe:

Not just Trump but no president that comes forth will do it either. It's going to take a serious effort on behalf of our government (as one entity) and the people to make that happen. Fixing this problem is going to suck for everybody, rich and poor alike. People will die from poverty through the transition. There could be war over it. Other nations could get involved. It could get really, really ugly.

But assuredly have no misconceptions about it, to begin fixing this solution we must dissolve the Federal Reserve and their entire concept of the debt we owe them for providing our own money to us. Making money off of lending money (usury) will need to be outlawed. That's going to piss off a lot of people and companies. So be it. Needs to be done.

Then we cut government spending, everything non-critical. Wellfare, bail-outs, foreign aid, all zeros until we're out of debt and turning a profit again. Sorry everybody. We're broke and so in debt it's pathetic. Can't afford to live by your own means? Do something as a local community about it, come together to help each other out without the loving hand of Uncle Sam to save the day for you. Maybe plant some food (and ensure laws are there to allow and protect such things). Be your own means of production for your needs or those of your communities.

If our own tax structure can't get us out of debt with the Federal Reserve debt removed and the spending cut to absolute zero then we'll need to increase taxes on everything. Homes, food, production, trade, business, weapons, all of it. Sucks, I hate this part the most but it could be a demanded necessity. Trade deals will need to be re-negotiated to actually benefit us and keep our money at home until we're good again.

I think we're past the point of fixing it without civilization changing behavior. We can remain a Democracy through the process, we can keep corporations (with some serious adjustments to how things are done, like removal of corporate personhood) and we can, probably remain the awesome union of states we currently enjoy if we do it right.

Trump won't cause that. The next presidents won't either. If you want a tax plan that will do something, entire swaths of the system will need brutalizing.

a reply to: FyreByrd

"Tax cuts" are really today's GOP Kochspeak for defunding government, "drowning it in a bathtub", Libertarian economic extremism.

As governor, Ronald Reagan began the shift to funding state programs with federal $. The modern Koch GOP economic/cultural extremism now wants to reverse that and shed all federal involvement back to states and reduce the fed govt to military/police, trade, and courts. The Koch push to privatize all govt functions also has an end game of states shedding any state level govt involvement. (And also essentially throwing the USA back to its old, pre-Constitution Articles of Confederation.)

You're on your own in a world run by corporations, oligarchs, banks and Wall Street casinos. Your limited, diminished rights will include a right to sue for any harm a corporation does to you; of course, that will only be your perceived harm, and well-moneyed corporations will fight you in court.

America has lost what its Founding Leaders gave them. Koch etal money has made the US its personal snowglobe, shaking its extremist, fantastical ideological snowflakes over all. Good luck to those of you who will live in this world where you have no value other than how much you can produce; your society will have no use for anyone who is/will be unable to produce, make money, no matter what the cause. All you can do is sit on the side of the road and beg for a Good Samaritan, if any will be around.

Big government and low tax is certainly possible. Look at Russia. A low 13% flat tax supports a big public sector. Everything from aviation industry and ship industry to banking and energy are government owned in Russia.

Sometimes whether the source is biased doesn't matter...a broken clock is still right twice a day.

Here's my point--from the OPs source and a statement from Robert Reich:

So, what the answer? "Raise taxes on big corporations and the wealthy," he concluded. "That’s what rational politicians would do if they weren’t in the pockets of big corporations and the wealthy."

It don't get no righter than that.

This isnt just Trump...this is every politician ever. Government don't care about you or I, whether right or left.

Well there is some further information:

From the bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget

www.crfb.org...

The so-called "Big 6" today released their framework for comprehensive tax reform.

While significant detail still needs to be filled in, enough exists for a very rough and very preliminary estimate of the details presented.

Based on those details – and many assumptions – we estimate the plan calls for roughly $5.8 trillion of tax cuts and $3.6 trillion of base broadening, resulting in about $2.2 trillion of net tax cuts.

Their conclusion is :

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Blaine91555

I don't know, but have the Dem's put out an alternative tax plan that benefits the working middle class?

Not that I have seen, but that is really not important at this point.

The Republicans are in control. They can do what they want to do, but even the Republicans cannot agree on things that have unified them for many years.

Only if reconciliation is an option or the Senate changes the rules. Still your point is a good one and both parties are not as advertised and have not been for a long time.

As to having an alternative plan, I think before any side criticizes an action from the other, they need to be able to say "A" wont work and "B" will work better and if they can't it's all hot air and propaganda. Gridlock stemming from pure partisan motivations is proof that the people in office are not what they pretend to be and clearly do not have the countries best interests as their intent. Everything they do, Left or Right is self serving. The only goal is reelection to once again do nothing of any value.

a reply to: FyreByrd

While significant detail still needs to be filled in, enough exists for a very rough and very preliminary estimate of the details presented.

In other words they have no idea what the long term outcome will be. More propaganda to give the illusion they know what they are doing.

a reply to: six67seven

Yup. Other than more taxes what else does Robert Reich know? Russia has a big public sector including everything from energy, health, manufacturing and Russia only has 13% flat tax. You don't need high tax to have socialism.

at least it's not 7.9 trillion dollars like under obama and it's even less than the 5.8 trillion under bush, objectively that would indicate a better budget with far less excess spending, it tells me trump knows better than our last 2 presidents at the very least...

originally posted by: namehere
at least it's not 7.9 trillion dollars like under obama and it's even less than the 5.8 trillion under bush, objectively that would indicate a better budget with far less excess spending, it tells me trump knows better than our last 2 presidents at the very least...

I'm not sure that this indicates anything about Trump, for better or worse. What it does say, is that his tax plan is going to leave us short over the current plan by $2 trillion over the next decade. How that impacts our deficit and debt all comes back to what we do with the budget.

If we do what every President other than Clinton has tried since the 60's when they've floated tax reform, where we cut taxes while increasing spending... then we're going to be looking at a disaster.

What America should do is take a page from Russia. A low flat tax of 13% and nationalize all the major industries including healthcare, manufacturing, banking.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Trump's plan would likely leave a $5 trillion hole in the federal budget over the next ten years.

Obama and Bush were going into dept. at a rate of 12.5 trillion per decade. So isn't this a big improvement? And Obama raised taxes. Plus you're not counting the new job growth from returning companies.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: FyreByrd

While significant detail still needs to be filled in, enough exists for a very rough and very preliminary estimate of the details presented.

In other words they have no idea what the long term outcome will be. More propaganda to give the illusion they know what they are doing.

No - the republicans have no idea of what they are doing - or how to even write a budget that makes sense - even bad 'trickle down' sense.

originally posted by: Gandalf77
Well said OP.
Notice how they really can't (or won't) say how they intend to pay for it?
Notice how the Greedy Old Parasites only care about budget deficits when a Dem is in office?
Notice how complete and utter fiscal irresponsibility is always OK when the cons have the reins?
No matter what type of poopulist spin Comrade Cheeto and his orange minions try to put on this, it's NOT about the middle class. It never is w/Republicans. This is just another giveaway to the wealthy elite--the plutocracy doing its thing.
Economists have pointed out time and time again that NOTHING trickles down. Fuzzy Republican math doesn't work out, but they really don't need it to. All they need to do is keep convincing their mindless moonies that they too can be rich and prosperous if they support these scams--licking up the Kool-Aid like pee at a soma sacrifice.

Pay for what?

What is there to pay for?

Sounds like the govt gets less and you keep more. Isn't that a good thing?

Tax and spend is the lefty mantra.

It would be nice to wean people off the govt teat, especially the politicians.

a reply to: burgerbuddy

You do know what happens when you reduce revenues while increasing spending, right?

originally posted by: Doctor Smith
a reply to: FyreByrd

Trump's plan would likely leave a $5 trillion hole in the federal budget over the next ten years.

Obama and Bush were going into dept. at a rate of 12.5 trillion per decade. So isn't this a big improvement? And Obama raised taxes. Plus you're not counting the new job growth from returning companies.

This plan is going to add $5 trillion to that number.
You are happy to count chickens before they hatch?

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: burgerbuddy

You do know what happens when you reduce revenues while increasing spending, right?

Who is doing that?

Are you for taking peoples money before they get a chance to save it or spend as they want?

Who comes first, you or the govt?

Lower the taxes on people that have to pay.

The govt will have to make due.

Might have to cancel that social justice for dummies class, at the free college.

Or god forbid, throw out some illegals so the orange picking jobs can get to $25 an hr to a citizen.

With lower taxes, you can afford the price increase on orange juice.