general franco ordained the outcome of WWII

as it says in the title :

" general franco ordained the outcome of WWII "

a very simple premise

discus

a reply to: ignorant_ape

Hitler once said he never wanted to be in a room with Franco again, Franco could see right through him, nether of those men were in any way good or saintly however and Franco had the blood of million's of Spaniard's on his hand's, he did not represent the Bulk of the Spanish population but did represent the very wealthy and the elite as well as being ultra conservative, most of the Spanish did not want his government and he only won the Spanish civil war because Hitler sent in his Condor legion's to aid him, it could just as easily have been a war between the Democratic Spanish and the Communists though had Franco been beaten so likely war in Spain would have continued so despite my hatred of Fascism I have to say that it is possible that because of his bloody victory less people over all died than would have if he had lost and then Spain had fallen into that other civil war.

Today many Spaniard's hate him but also many love him, in today's world under the pressure's of mass immigration his type of nationalist government despite it's protectionism and isolation from the outside world is actually gaining popularity among many that did NOT live under his regime but this swing to the right is definitely not as pronounced as elsewhere and his regimes many crimes against his own people are still causing division and pain for many in Spain.

Idealism was the cause of that war, Franco and his Fascists had there idealism, the communists had there Idealism and for the sake of a free and democratic Spain the Democrat's had there idealism, because of Franco persecuting and forcing his opponents into a corner the two opposition groups (Whom actually represented the massive majority of the Spanish people) were forced into an alliance and so the Democrats found themselves in a very uncomfortable shared bed with the communists.

Under Franco's rule Spain went from being one of the richest European nation's and a vibrant economy downward to a level were it was poor and technologically backward compared to other European nation's.

Franco also chose to keep his nation neutral during the second world war and probably because he WAS strong enough and intelligence enough (if not a good guy) that he could see right through Hitler and knew that Hitler would simply want to control his nation as did in fact happen to the Italian's when Mussolini made his alliance with Hitler.

Just to take it aside for a moment he may also have watched how Hitler had played the Abyssinian war against the Italian's by providing Mauser rifles to the natives meaning that the Italian's lost there campaign to form an Italian empire in Africa and he probably knew that this was done as Hitler did not want Italy to be too strong and therefore a competitor for the Nazi's own Fascist state.

Spain today is still littered with mass grave's, Franco's regime butchered entire community's because of there communist or democrat support and not all of those mass graves are recorded or have been found, in Spain though the past is often left to sleep.

BUT if Franco had come into the war on Germany's side the Axis could well have won the second world war, though it has been century's since they last held that distinction the Spanish were once known as the very finest soldiers in the world, not the finest sailors but on land they had no equal before the decline of the Spanish empire and it's spending itself in south America, Historically had the america's not been discovered it is quite possible that the Spanish would have reversed the ancient invasion of Iberia having taken it back from the Moor's only a few decades prior and that they would have carved out a Spanish empire in North Africa with the full backing of the Church and other allied state's, perversely therefore the discovery of the America's probably prevented the Islamic empire from being rolled back across lands which it had once conquered in a new age of empire building and religiously justified wars against the Arab's to seize back the ancient Christian heartland's they had once stolen and of course led by the Spaniard's, the very same whom instead became the Conquistadors.

Franco was born into a country whose greatness was behind it though, a country that had been muscled off the world stage by the British, French and the United States so what part that played in his psychology, he was a far more intelligent man than Hitler but his mistake was to isolate Spain.

a reply to: ignorant_ape
Franco's contribution was a piece in the jigsaw. When different things happen which could have changed the outcome, who can say which was THE decisive event?
Obviously Franco's contribution was to refrain from allowing the Germans through to take Gibraltar, which would have made Anglo-American operations impossible in the Mediterranean, and perhaps allowed the Axis to gain access to Middle Eastern oil.

There is also a case that Disraeli ordained the result of the war. He was the one who bought the Suez Canal shares and got Britain astride that route in the first place.
It was the empire-builders who made sure that Britain had Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus, and the Suez canal, and also made sure of the alternative route round South Africa and the Indian Ocean.
It is almost as if the British empire was carefully built up over three centuries for the specific (unconscious) purpose of making it possible for Hitler to be defeated, and then wound up once the job was done.

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
as it says in the title :

" general franco ordained the outcome of WWII "

a very simple premise

discus

Surely, you are in cahoots Labtech767 and knew that he had what appears to be an excellent bit of words to contribute less than an hour later? I don't mind. His piece was refreshing and informative being that most Americans, including myself, know little or nothing at all of about Franco and Spain, a severely neglected country these days.

imho Spain too small and poor to have any serious impact

the Gibraltar thing would have stung but I don't think would have been a game changer.

too bad Mussolini didn't stay neutral and keep Italy out of the war.
somebody said, Franco wanted the sidelines, Mussolini needed headlines.

originally posted by: ElGoobero
imho Spain too small and poor to have any serious impact

the Gibraltar thing would have stung but I don't think would have been a game changer.

too bad Mussolini didn't stay neutral and keep Italy out of the war.
somebody said, Franco wanted the sidelines, Mussolini needed headlines.

Mussolini re-enthroned the Pope who had been dethroned by France's Napoleon. The same church/state power amidst all the turmoil of the world wars, gifted Europe as one who rages from suddenly becoming unshackled. The power which orchestrated the Spanish armada centuries before, which marked the fall of Spanish power on the world stage when it utterly failed in it's sanctioned mission to spank the British Empire in its infancy for daring to oppose Papal authority. Hitler's blitz seen in that light was hardly any different, except for the passing of time.

a reply to: ignorant_ape

The republic rigged an election. That was proven. Nothing was done.

That caused the civil war.

Land reform as promised by the republic failed to happen.

THIS caused stagnation under the republic.

Franco fought and won a civil war.

He had air support and some weapons from Germany. The republic had international conscriptions from thrill seekers and romanticized murders. /rapists.

The republic fought a class war. Franco fought a civil war. He won.

Spain prospered. The tourism it enjoys now he made. His foreign policy was more effective than the kings and was what lead to a time of recovery. Its what set Spain up for its position now. He kept the country whole and saved the monarchy from a fate like that of Russia's royal family.

Spain was screwed up. German planes bombed what roaming thugs didnt burn and pillage.

Franco ended that. Swiftly. He used the planes, but the Germans were assholes trying out new toys so no rules could be applied. In times of war the law goes silent.

Franco won if anything, thanks to the Moors. They were the de facto foreign legion at the time still loyal to the king of Spain by treaty with Morocco's king prior to the war.

Then after the war Franco built industry, aqueducts, roads, infrastructure and housing. He did a freaking lot. Hard working crazy SOB.

He made mistakes and honestly screw Franco.

Still. It is what it is. Spain was like Syria now, with random people who didnt belong there shooting at one side of a civil war trying to make right what they saw wrong IN THEIR LAND.

The republic was crap. Lies. Promises, good intentions, a fantasy for useful fools to accomplish evil mens dirty deeds.

this thread was mostly - a couter strike at the tunnel vision shown in other threads - that attempts to credit or blame a single factor as the entire pivot of the outcome of WWII [ or other complex events ]

i do actually stand by my claim though

iberean neurality allowed the bitish empire to retain control of the medeteraean

i should have included salazar in my OP - as he played a big role in francos neutrality stance

but had franco joined the axis powers in the autum of 1939 salazar would have had little choice - his life expectency as a ally of britain and france would have been minimal

and with spain / portugal in the axis camp

gibrallta falls - and with it - british dominance in the med [ the bitish simply cannot hold the med from suez /// alexandria ]- look at the convoy data of how the campaigns were supplied - material from the UK canada and the USA was vital - and could not feasibly be routed via the suez canal

thus the allies loose the med totally

another very important issue = the azores - with an axis portugal - germany can put 10% of its u-boat fleet in bases on the azores - look at what thier first major stategic naval descision was once france fell - yup build forward bases for U-BOATS in the french atlantic ports

so yes - franco could have changed the entire course // outcome of the war

a reply to: ignorant_ape

It is a long story, but to cut it short, Franco was against free-masons, communists and socialists, all of whom have created through media and propaganda an unjust picture for posterity of Franco.

Franco saved Spain, plain and simple. Stalin had Soviet's Red Armyfighting along with American Jewish Bridages in the country, slaughtering and wiping out the teachers, priests, educated - same thing as during Russian revolution. As a popular call for help, Franco arrived from Marocko and kicked out that scum only after heavy and bloody fighting. His opposition was formidable - Stalin including.

The socialist-communists rule was heavily free-masons, and directly in collusion with Stalin.For this reason, he banned free-masons in Spain.

Now, most of what we see, hear and read - is from the opposing side - and very much ignoring the actual truth and facts on the ground.

In my books Franco was a true hero, who put a stop on Communist expansion to Europe.

If you want to get a more complete picture, there is a Swede Jüri Lina, who has done deep research into this. I do not have direct links readily available so, I just googled and found something into that direction: Jüri Lina on Spanish Civil War


Now, coming back to OP...

Now, this all ended in 1939 ... and a long healing process started. Had Spain entered WW2 as an ally to Germany - they could not have produced much of an effect militarily. Look Italians - running a loof from the first sight of trouble. They could not even beat simple peasant army in Yugoslavia nor in Greece. Would not have helped much to see more of the same with the Spanish.

Morocko was a gateway for Allied invasion in Africa. If Spain had been on Germany's side, they'd be first to quit from the game. Much like Italy did 1 year later, when Africa was lost to the Allied.

So, Franco did all right by thinking on national terms, and keeping out of harms way.

Franco's Guardia Civil or FBI, kept things on an even keel, throughout his admin. They were a fright in 1971, when I toured Spain on a Ducati Motorcycle. The U.S. was so afraid of the Commies, that Franco could do no wrong, during the Viet Nam War era, even when Shore Police sub machined U.S. sailors, in the streets, of Barcelona. I was walking with some sailors a week later, and they saw S.P.'s coming, so they crossed the street, walked down the block, and then crossed back over. They told me that their Skipper ordered them to avoid passing Franco's goons, on the street.

And there was never any peep about these murders in our Press, because Franco was our C.I.A.'s FHB.