Baddogma's Other Meta Cafe- Polite Discussions About Scientific Mysticism and General Weirdness

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I've seen scientists who study all kinds of intelligence related properties of plants, funghi and huge slime cells shiver at the mentioning of consciousness.
That's a no go topic, apparently.

Makes you wonder if that's another control loop, as in: it has given up to keep us pseudo-meta-researchers out of its skirt but to those people we'd really need to make a solid inquiry the hurdles to ever even ask about it grow daily.

And you know, I'm one of those who wants to get something out of our relationship with the undeniable seperate intelligence that can mess with us, you're right and it's true:
Praying, wishing,... anything trying to make it do what we want doesn't work.

So I believe the first question is where can this other intelligence reliably be seen* working?
You know what I mean?
Repeatabiliity is really not achievable in any way. So I think the question has to be: where can it be seen?
And how could we see it, we got no consciousness detector or something like that?

* seen as in detected &/or recorded in whatever way




That's the gigantic elephant in the meta room, right? All we got to see intelligence "outside a body" is anecdotal, art, requires cultural technologies, we got nothing objective.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

That would've been my next suggestion... lol sorry, you got this.

I once got two cats out of a litter that my neighbours found in an empty building near by and one Oscar had problems from day 1, needed an operation because his cochlea was glued from his cat flu (?), he couldn't walk or keep his head straight anymore.
He needed an operation, and we inhaled with him and fed him medicine, kept him warm, all kinds of things... he was a wonderful little guy, with all the things we did to him you'd think he would have gotten suspicious of humans, but the opposite, he stayed a baby forever, a real cuddle monster his entire life.
His brother Charlie who went through all this second hand, he made a point about "I play with you, I perform for you, but don't ever infringe on my independence", so he came out of this kind of how you'd have expected from Oscar.

Weird, cute, smart little creatures

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
I don't find ad hominem attacks all that funny. Pasting a smiley face on it does not make it funny.

It was not meant to be funny. I invited you to play a game. Genuinely and sincerely.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
'Reality' such as it is, is frustrating to everyone.

Ummm not everyone...in my experience humans are frustrating at times but reality, them included, is a never-ending source of inspiration and joy. Some of it is hard to deal with, to understand - why we have to kill each other, why we can't just get along but Earth is awesome. Nine aside, it would totally be my planet of choice - given the choice. I'm not very bright I guess. Perhaps ignorance is bliss or perhaps I just appreciate the intricate play of probabilities that brought me right here, right now.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
I try to face up to what's real, whether I like it or not.. that's been the story of my life.

Me too, that's why I look away from fictional gore but never away from the photograph of a child crying from hunger or the woman hacked to pieces by whoever had finished using her.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
My wife is quite 'earthy' as she calls it. And I have quite a lot of respect
for throwing 80% of one's mind out the window, and focusing on the 20%
which seems more solid, just so that one doesn't spend all their time
rotating around in Dorothy's tornado.

I do understand.

No you don't, not at all. Which is why I invited you to play a game. The Alchemists of old were right you know, it's all just women's work and child's play.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
But somebody's got to do the hard work of thinking. And a lot of minds,
much greater than mine will ever be, roll around in this level of uncertainty;
and because they have, we have our modern technological world --- whether
that's a good thing or not, that remains to be seen.

It takes many minds working together, feeding from one another - sharing ideas. The problem arises when those ideas are shared only amongst like-minds. Like-minded people getting together having like-minded thoughts and ideas creates a stagnation. Ideas have to be free. That's the problem with the US, they wanted to control the flow, keep things hidden. That's why it's so out of touch with it's own people, that's why it has lost it's way. This is how they all lose their way. That is the occult power that is at play - how to keep secrets; how to deflect attention away from those secrets when they cannot be hidden. Anyway, as they know, it can't be done, you cannot put the cat back in the bag once it's got out.

So, let's just carry on over a little from Mirageman's thread. Let's look at Goddard a little closer. The difference between Goddard's rocket experiments and the Germans was about more than resources. Yes, Goddard with the same state backing could have equalled if not outstripped German progress, but Goddard wouldn't have done that because Goddard, unlike the Nazi regime and the post-war US state apparatus, valued human life and "life" in general.

In short, if you are saying that dumb and impetuous decisions have been made as a consequence of wanting to take short cuts and cutting out the science-part...you're preaching to the choir.

"First, do no harm."

It takes many minds working together, feeding from one another - sharing ideas. The problem arises when those ideas are shared only amongst like-minds. Like-minded people getting together having like-minded thoughts and ideas creates a stagnation. Ideas have to be free. That's the problem with the US, they wanted to control the flow, keep things hidden.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

This we are on the same page with.

Everyone alive today, who is doing anything of value, can only do so, because they stand on the shoulders of the giants that came before us.

I will say one more thing about your (perceived) ad hominem attack.

When i was first diagnosed with high-functioning autism, I was also diagnosed with PTSD, and the 'abuser' was humans in general, not just one or two people. This was because I was group abused as a child.

I've never gotten fully over it.

So dress your words up any way you wish, those words of yours I objected to, came across as pure and simple abuse.

Perhaps due to this, there's no value in us having discussions.

Perhaps there is.

Just letting you know.

I do enjoy seeing your contributions, that's why I have been asking for them.

Best,

Kev

a reply to: Peeple

Kundalni yoga is where you can see it.

The little fellers love to pull the leavers and switches inside of our bodies, making it possible to communicate.

but here's the catch.

They do it to communicate with each other, not with 'us'.

We are not considered sentient per se.

We are the machinery.

This is the conclusion i've come to, subject to change, and certainly not 100% correct.

This 'stuff' is damn hard. It makes the 'hard problem of consciousness look easy in comparison'.

Now, it would SEEM that some of the 'little fellers' deeply respect some 'shaman' or 'kundalini adepts' or even some few scientists.

At best, a few of us may be pets?

I guess that when there is a mountain of difference between 'others' and 'us', that's not surprising.

Just so you know, i've always wanted to be wrong about this. It doesn't seem joyful to me either.

When I let myself forget that I'm a human being, i do feel joy.. it's like I can see everything.
I try hard not to forget that i'm a human being. (I'm NOT saying that I see everything, i'm simply
describing the emotion).

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Kundalini is very much too an inner product, a cultural technology.
A way to establish communication but only for the one individual.
And that's something I found to be pretty unnecessary, because if "it" wants to talk to you, it just "runs you over", you die a little from something and it hooks on to you just as if you would have actively went out to seek it.
Or UFO sightings function well, or deep trauma, whatever destabilises your system enough, your "frame of the world".

That doesn't help us over the next hurdle, which I believe is mainly a communication issue.
Because our brain does its job just that little bit too well. Filling in the gaps. Always trying to balance you and give you or twist the answers you receive in a way that matches your needs, or gives you hope that all you want to be true will come true eventually.
Objectively that's not the case.
Objectively we are the problem.
Because we see fe a light in the sky and an immediate run off happens. It's aliens! Spaceships! Invasion!
To a point, as I found out, that even if you describe it to another person without the trigger words, they run off and behave as if you'd have said "aliens! etc"

You might not be wrong or right with your little fellows in the machine, but the problem with every "theory", no matter how logically coherent and beautiful you make it, is that it needs to jump from subjective to objective.
The predictions are what matters. That's the only way it can be measured as true or false.

Like say "there are these little fellows, we are their machine and next they'll guide the collective attention towards unicorns" and then actually the public talks about unicorns for months.
The other problem with this fringe thing is you'd have to do that 20 000 times without a fail before anybody would even consider to take you seriously.

So my guess for what we really should ask ourselves and them no matter who they are is how can we establish your existence as fact to everybody outside of subjective experience?
...but I kind of got distracted that wasn't what I was originally going for....



gone

a reply to: Peeple

I certainly understand your points.

The kundalini group I was part of, periodically asked for grant money, to do the research that could
turn the subjective into the objective. There were several written plans, some written up by bonafida
geniuses.

Nobody wants to fund that sort of research.

If it worked, it would destroy all their preconceived notions, reduce their power, and worst
of all, it might help someone.. can't do THAT. Human society is about hierarchical power
structures.

The USA throws 1/3 of it's food away every day.. and doesn't care that people starve.
(those are the numbers give or take).

The 'little guys' are busy with their agenda, which has nothing to do with us either.

It's all 'divine selfishness'.

Yes, it's possible to FEEL all that gooey oneness and love, and to demonstrate it others who are similar
to you.. but that's nearly as far as it goes.

You are quite correct.. if 'the others' wanted to prove their existence, they eventually would.. but it's
not to their benefit to do so.

That should be obvious.

Now, in a way i'm stretching what i'm calling 'the little guys' --- it's not quite that discrete.. but for the
sake of talking in a common language, i'm using that phrase.

a reply to: Peeple
Weird, cute and smart indeed. She didn't take long to suss me out. She's found another spot.

It was inevitable, she got used to me being around and now I am back to work for my full hours, its a shock to her little system. Bless her.

I bought her a raspberry yogurt on my way home so I'm back in the good books...until I have to go out again.

Thanks for the sharing of your cat wisdom and lending a helpful ear, very much appreciated.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I don't think that there is any way you can get over something like that, however the power of the human spirit to overcome the most horrific abuses never ceases to take my breath away and then inspire me to be as good at being human as they are.

Take care and all the best.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Your efforts to get government involvement in Kundalini research interests me.

India's Ministry of Ayurveda, Yoga and Naturopathy, Unani, Siddha and Homoeopathy (AYUSH) does some givernment Kundalini research, it seems:

main.ayush.gov.in...

a reply to: Never Despise

I'm not surprised.

However, such efforts, if you don't 'take the religion out of it' are doomed to fail.

It takes a most unusual mindset to research this type of thing properly.

Of course, fascinatingly, if you succeed, by taking the religion out of it,

you wind up discovering the source of religion!

By the by, we were asking private institutions, such as the Templeton foundation.
I myself wrote up the grant proposal for that institution.

Now, i've discovered that the USG HAS studied 'Kundalini' from time to time..

Kev

Thanks for weirdness!!!





Maybe this not the end but the way that this crazy year has gone I am not surprised!

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

But that's where our experiences differ. I think what ever the other is, we do matter, literally and metaphorically.
I don't know if I ever told you, 2014 I went off to a little Western Europe Tour on foot and "it" really helped me. It also made me let go of all my bagagge but when I needed it, I found fruit, a rain jacket, a nice person who gave me water, took me in etc
So I can't have such a bleak view because it is simply not aligning with what I know.

And that's also where my whole argument about "from subjective to objective" is coming from. A categorisation of the whole human experience would be necessary.
How many people do you know that are even fully aware of what they do, think and perceive all day? It is not that many.
I've talked to a few psychologists, trying to get a second opinion if you will, and the feedback was I reflect my insights so well they wouldn't know how to help me analyse beyond that.
But that seems quite crucial, understanding the normal to see where the weird shoots off.

I am really looking for a technique that gives me a handle on that, that's not kundalini because so many are doing it, if someone broke the veil/barrier we would know.
That would be the biggest news of all times!
(Despite that I'm really not into anything that takes this much discipline and is so little fun/rewarding)

What would be really "objective proof" and as far as we know maybe do-able for the other, like simply taking control over our world, our bodies and our perception, our thoughts as in guiding us down synchronicities, weird lightshows and "impossible coincidences" -
it would be devastating.
So weirdly the control loop and everything to keep us from figuring "it" out really is a sort of sign they're not all bad.
But looking at how stupid humans are, everything develops and such, we might live to a point where ...
I'm not saying "they'll save us", but I think they made their choice what criteria has to be met and that's mostly a treshold of chaos, where that little something additionally won't even make a difference on the holy-#-scale.

So that's kind of where my interest in religion comes full swing, especially the 3 Abrahams are agents of that chaos, or people like Steve Bannon, I "need" to verify my theory.
I don't participate in that per se but... I have a feeling I'll be the only one really enjoying it....

a reply to: Peeple

I've rarely met a person in the world, who isn't out looking for free lunch.

People stack millions of angels on the heads of a pin, until they (think) they've gotten that free lunch.

It's called 'self-delusion'.

Not only we do it, but the 'other' does it too.

I know that you disagree, and will keep looking for your free lunch.

There are many people who have 'broken through', who have become adults.

You rarely hear from them, as nobody wants to hear from them; they just want their free lunch.

Kev

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

My guess still is she's just bored. I'm not convinced you are even a consideration in her behaviour.
The pee bounces off from the plastic and cats usually hate that. That's why she found a new spot.
Granted she might pick something that smells more intensly like you to make a point about "Kilgore plus me" is an unit if you will... but not to teach you lesson or something silly like that.

But no offense it's your cat, so what you say goes.

How many hours do you work?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I don't know if I'd call the price "end of the illusion of freedom"
free

a reply to: Peeple

Your response did make me smile ;-)

a reply to: Peeple

I totally agree with you, definately boredom. I have ordered her a fancy "feeding system" that encourages her to "hunt" out her food. You stop putting it in a bowl and instead stuff it into three mice which you hide. It'll take some adjustment but I think that might help with when I'm not in or able to play with her.

But you're right, I know she's not angry at me, I think I've said before, I like to think she loves me but I suspect it is actually Stockholm Syndrome but either way to her I am the source of food and entertainment. Often, when she pees where she shouldn't she lets me know, does it right in front of me before I even realise what's going on. I get fake angry and chase her around. So, in truth, while it may not be entirely my fault, I can see where I may have exacerbated matters.



I only work a few hours a day, seldom in one chunk, I'm home in between times. She doesn't spend much time alone, my son is often in when I'm not.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

That's pretty cool. Does she destroy the mice? How does that work? Does it come with a manual on how you introduce it to her?

And...

...get fake angry and chase her around...

Sorry but I had to laugh. You know it. I just say: what a fun game you are playing...

Stockholm Syndrome? Nah. I'm pretty sure Queen what's-her-name has much appreciation for her servant. Cats, if not gods are at least royalty and your lucky she lets you crash in her palace.
In exchange for entertainment and services of course.
But still what's a godess without a priestess?


Do you know My Cat From Hell? Jackson Galaxy also has some books on cats.

a reply to: Peeple

It's these...

www.catbehaviourist.com...

...and I have to say, does exactly what it says on the box. I filled them up in front of her. Showed her that she needed to bat them about to get the food and Bob's yer uncle. She had her fill, came over to give me purrs and rubs before going off to her cave for a nap.

I have caught his programme a couple of times, enough to know my worries are mild in comparison, lol. I can't remember if it was on his programme or not, but this one woman who had to wear cricket pads and big gloves to even think of approaching her cat...and still she loved the angry, scratchy-bitey thing - from a safe distance of course. As you correctly diagnosed, she was lacking sufficient challenges and was therefore bored. Children are just the same. Adults too, come to think of it.



Thank you from me and the cat.