Essene theory

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted Disturbinati
Jesus pbuh and the birds of clay is not Gnostic.

It's from the infancy Gospels of Thomas and James, Orthodox, non Canonical, not Gnostic.

Different Gospel of Thomas than the Gnostic Copts had, later too. And the Qur'an was already written before they went to Egypt.

I actually have it too, Ante Nicene fathers volume 8, from before the discovery of Nag Hammadi too, and it has no elements of Gnosticism whatsoever. It's just a proto-evangelium, or Apocryphal Infancy Gospel, but nothing to do with Egyptian Gnosticism or anything unorthodox. Except when Jesus (pbuh) kills a kid for bumping into him it is pretty Orthodox.

Here’s what I wrote below just for clarity…

Originally posted Joecroft
There is a huge cross over/connection, between the Christian Gnostic texts, and the Quran. Like for example Jesus turning clay into birds, is found in the Quran and also within the Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

And then there’s the “Gospel of Judas”, and the line where Jesus is talking about Heaven and describing it being like that "which no eye of an Angel has seen" etc…with the exact same words being found within the Quran.

I didn’t specifically state the “infancy Gospel of Thomas” was a Gnostic Gospel…but the “Gospel of Judas” is…

Although, I should have been a bit clearer in what I wrote and separated the 2 books apart from each other…

Anyway, moving onto the connections found within the Quran…

Originally posted Disturbinati
But there is a shared element true. The birds of clay.

In Islam's version the birds die after they fly too far from Jesus (pbuh) to show he is powerful but inferior to God. According to Al Jalalalayni Tafsir, a Qur'an with commentary.

I don't believe that is the case in the Infancy Gospels.

But obviously I am not receptive to the idea of borrowing, and not just because I'm a Muslim, but because it would have been pretty hard for Apocryphal Orthodox Catholic books, non-Canonical (especially) to make their way to Arabia where Catholicism had no home.

So how do you think those similarities found there way into the Quran…and Also that quote I mentioned from the “Gospel of Judas”…a very similar verse is also found within the Quran…

To me, it makes sense that the groups that rejected Paul and the orthodox Church would have had an influence on the Quranic perspective…

Originally posted Disturbinati
But the H&R theology is very compatible with Islam, and doesn't have any influence on the Qur'an either that I can see.

I’ve only read a few parts of H&R…in what way is it compatible with Islam in your opinion…?

Originally posted Disturbinati
And before him Basilides said similar stories, that Simon of Cyrene was crucified, so why would it be a misunderstanding when that belief is independent of the Book you mentioned? From different sources, Basilides wasn't Sethian and they don't have Simon featured in their version either to provide evidence that Basilides influenced them, did they BOTH (and) ALSO misunderstand something?

What I mean is that the “The Acts of John”…(verse 97) that I quoted in my last reply…Tells a story of Jesus standing there in Spirit…IMO while down below he is being crucified…

This clearly fits the qur'anic idea that Jesus only appeared to have been crucified etc…

The Gnostics saw the flesh as being the clothes of the man, While the Spirit/Soul is the real person…I personally think that’s the idea that’s being expressed in those verses…

Originally posted Disturbinati
And the Revelation of Peter is the perfect explanation for what actually happened, ie, Jesus (pbuh) didn't die or suffer, and is not the source either obviously, as Apocryphal books were a death sentence and pretty much don't exist in 7th century Arabic MSS. At all actually.

And I think the same principal above applies to “the Revelation of Peter”…

The Revelation of Peter
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

The “his fleshy part”, part…is again getting across that Gnostic idea of the flesh being not the real man; only the Spirit/Soul is…

That’s the misunderstanding that I’m talking about…someone viewing those texts literally would automatically think Jesus wasn’t crucified…which isn’t what those texts are saying…IMO

Anyway, I hope I’m not derailing your thread here, as you’re OP is mainly focussing on the Essenes…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft


Obviously through Prophecy.

Would be my answer.

I am a Muslim.

No way in hell did the first Muslims have the Gospel of Judas, and until proven otherwise it can't be claimed that non-existent MSS. influenced the Qur'an when there is no likelihood of them having access to those Orthodox Apocryphal books either.

It is not plausible.

Prove your charge of borrowing by producing evidence they had access to those books that were not in Arabic at the time, provide evidence that the Arabs had access to even Syriac versions.

If they have MSS. from that century, find them, otherwise I should not be required to explain your theory, you don't have evidence beyond conjecture and speculation and plagiarism is a serious charge to make.

If anything it is more amazing, the similarities in the Gnostics texts, because they were in a cave in the 7th century and to suggest that they were in Arabia...and influenced the Qur'an, is a fallacy of logic.

Judas was discovered in the late 1800's I believe or early 1900's, otherwise lost before then. It could not either have possibly influence Islam or the Qur'an, unless you know of someone who had it, showed it to Mohammed saws it is 100 % speculation and not plausible even in the least. Judas is no hero in Islam.

What historian of Islam ever mentioned Sethian Gnostics or their writings? They recorded almost everything, I have never hears of one who was aware of the Gospel of Judas or Rev. of Peter.

Maybe Christians rejected a real tradition in their ignorance with the infancy Gospels, they were not Prophets, but Mohammed saws, was.

I would say they rejected it for political reasons and that it was their loss, if anything it is evidence of Prophetic​ ability because Mohammed saws didn't even have those books.

How could he know their contents if buried in a cave in Egypt?

And declared heretical by Orthodoxy, so hidden (Apocryphal means hidden) away? Regarding the infancy Gospels?

Outlawed by Athanasius, further by the Gelasian decree, who would risk death to travel to Arabia with banned books to show someone they don't know exists, in all likelihood that is what would be the case as the Muslims didn't really go to Egypt until after the Qur'an was written and Mohammed saws had passed, it became their territory when the Coptic monophysite Christians sided with the Muslims against Byzantium (John Nikiou, 8th century)

a reply to: Joecroft


Just to get back on topic...

I would be more inclined to believe that the Judahite Nazarenes, Ebionites, who I believe are the same as the "Essenes", the Way, Sons of Light, Ebionim, etc; who according to church records fled to Pella, Petra, Edessa, and the fact that little known Jewish sects were in Arabia, ones the Talmud knows nothing of, even though written in Iraq, influenced Mohammed (saws), not in the form of literature but that their story would have been compelling. Jews, started a sect that believed in a Spiritual Messiah, were declared heretics because they denied divinity and Trinity, were persecuted and found safety in Arabia and Mesopotamia, and that this was the second "Messiah" type of the DSS, the Warrior kind, not of but LIKE David, and with Hebrew blood from Abraham(pbuh) was destined for greatness and Prophethood to fix what Paul "Lying Tongue" destroyed and paganized.

Because God called him to it, it happened, and no Empire in history has ever risen so rapidly before or since, the rewards of a job well done.

If not for Islam Europe would have lingered in the Dark Ages, it was their science, ressurection of once rejected by Europe Greek philosophy, math, medicine and even "No compulsion in religion", a truly new concept in Christian Europe, is from the Qur'an. The seeds of Enlightenment were planted and harvested in the Muslim world and passed to Europe.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted Disturbinati
No way in hell did the first Muslims have the Gospel of Judas, and until proven otherwise it can't be claimed that non-existent MSS. influenced the Qur'an when there is no likelihood of them having access to those Orthodox Apocryphal books either.

It is not plausible.

Prove your charge of borrowing by producing evidence they had access to those books that were not in Arabic at the time, provide evidence that the Arabs had access to even Syriac versions.

If they have MSS. from that century, find them, otherwise I should not be required to explain your theory, you don't have evidence beyond conjecture and speculation and plagiarism is a serious charge to make.

If anything it is more amazing, the similarities in the Gnostics texts, because they were in a cave in the 7th century and to suggest that they were in Arabia...and influenced the Qur'an, is a fallacy of logic.

I never said they borrowed it…I never suggested those texts were in Arabia…And I’m not making any such claims…

I simply asked you a question as to how you thought those words from the “Gospel of Judas” and/or The infancy Gospel of Thomas, might have found there way into the Quran…?

This is the verse from the Gospel of judas I was thinking of…

Jesus said, “[Come], that I may teach you about [secrets] no person [has] ever seen. For there exists a great and boundless realm, whose extent no generation of angels has seen, [in which] there is [a] great invisible [Spirit],

which no eye of an angel has ever seen, no thought of the heart has ever comprehended, and it was never called by any name.

And I’m not sure if this below is the Quran verse I was thinking of but it definitely has some similarities…although not as clear cut as the “clay birds” example, admittedly…

Narrated by Sahl ibn Sa’d as-Sa’idi; I was in the company of Allah’s Messenger (saws) when he (saws) gave a description of Paradise, and then Allah’s Messenger (saws) concluded with these words: ‘There would be bounties in Paradise which no eye has ever seen, no ear has ever heard and no human heart has even ever perceived!’ He (saws) then recited this verse of the Glorious Quran: (Surah As-Sajdah 32-16:17) (Muslim).

Originally posted Disturbinati
Judas was discovered in the late 1800's I believe or early 1900's, otherwise lost before then. It could not either have possibly influence Islam or the Qur'an, unless you know of someone who had it, showed it to Mohammed saws it is 100 % speculation and not plausible even in the least. Judas is no hero in Islam.

You do realize that people can also carry ideas (those who may have read the text etc) and not just the books which contain those ideas…right…?

Originally posted Disturbinati
How could he know their contents if buried in a cave in Egypt?

Hey, it’s only ONE verse from one book…lol


- JC

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Yeah... Ever comsider the possibility that i may have just misread your op...

All good though people like you who insult others who question them don't last long around here...

I will avoid your posts from here on

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted Joecroft
What’s your thoughts on the Ebionites and the Nazarenes being one and the same group. Both appear to be given the title of “pious ones”, a title given by Irenaeus. Both have pretty similar beliefs, both rejected connonical texts, and both rejected Paul. Jesus held his brother James in high regard, and so did the Ebionites.

Also archaeology has never found a town or place called Nazareth, it’s almost as if it never existed.

Originally posted Disturbinati
I would be more inclined to believe that the Judahite Nazarenes, Ebionites, who I believe are the same as the "Essenes", the Way, Sons of Light, Ebionim, etc;…
…

That’s what I was asking you in my other post that I’ve highlighted above…

The Nazarenes are regarded as a sect of Essenes, although it’s largely the Church Father historians, who are making these types of distinctions in general. The Nazarean and Ebionites look pretty similar to me, and although one is said to have rejected the literal virgin birth, this could just be seen as the difference between those who understood it esoterically and those who didn’t, rather than it being two completely different sects…

- JC

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Disturbinatti

Yeah... Ever comsider the possibility that i may have just misread your op...

All good though people like you who insult others who question them don't last long around here...

I will avoid your posts from here on

Please do and thank you.

a reply to: Joecroft


Also let us not forget the ever cosmic coincidence that both the DSS and NHC's were found within a decade of each other, both by Muslims named Mohammed.

The Qur'an is all about "Clear signs" and not ignoring them, granted it's the most common name in the world, it is still an enourmous coincidence.

1400 years later Islam contibutes to the field of Biblical and Jewish historical archeological discoveries with the two most important discoveries in the field possibly ever.

No wonder Islam can relate to both, the DSS clearly are looking for a military victory over Rome, and deliverance from.

Islam gave both Jew and Christian freedom from persecution by protecting them, more the Jews as Rome wouldn't waste a moment to persecute them and Byzantium did, and little by little Islam chipped away until fulfilling Mohammed's​ saws prophecy of capturing Constantinople, Islambul to the Ottomans.

One of histories greatest Empires in its own right.

The Jews were allowed to return to Palestine and Umar built the Mosque on the mount because of a Jewish converts request. The second or third successor to the Prophet saws. Third.

It had been a Byzantine trash dump, he ordered it cleaned.

Sounds like a Prophecy fulfilled. If a little late.

a reply to: Joecroft


Which church father connected Essenes with Nazarenes?

Eusebius tried with Christians and Theraputae, but nobody believes that.

I have never seen any make even a suggestion of a connection between Essenes and Nazarenes.

It could be the Hasidim and Nosrei ha Brit of the DSS, I will buy that, are the Essenes and Nazarenes, for the reason I stated above about Philo. And because Nosrei is obviously ​related to Nazarene, branch/netzer of Jesse too, could be some word play.

Also the Shiloh prophecy, when the scepter passed from Jacob, Shiloh, a mystery word, is related to Shalom-Salaam, which shares a root with Islam.

The last Kingdom of Jews was the Himyarites in Arabia I believe. Who didn't exist after Islam.

a reply to: Akragon


All due respect your question was absurd.

I still answered it, I just let you know how absurd it was, nothing personal but you tried to sass me and I let you know you were confused about what I said, though it was clear what I meant.

I used the word, word, and for no reason you assumed I meant the Bible.

a reply to: Joecroft

I only say that because between Acts and Epiphanius in the 5th century nobody even says anything about the Nazarenes. Not in a historical setting, about the Nazarenes of their own time.


Iranaeus mentionied Ebionites, not Nazarenes nor did he connect them with Essenes.

Hippolytus doesn't.

Epiphanius describes them separately and not as Christian heretics, just Jews.

Because the Hasidim didn't go Messianic, I believe. A geniza fragment was found that is a later copy of Damascus Document and published in the Apocrypha of M.R. James long before the Scrolls were discoverd. It's centuries later so someone had it.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted Disturbinati
Which church father connected Essenes with Nazarenes?

Eusebius tried with Christians and Theraputae, but nobody believes that.

I have never seen any make even a suggestion of a connection between Essenes and Nazarenes.

None that I’m aware of…It’s historians who are connecting the two together, as being Essenes…

I think it was Origen who thought or considered the Nazarenes to be a sect of the Ebionites. Origen distinguishes the two sects into believers and non believers in the virgin birth…


In "the secret legacy of Jesus” by J Butz, he argues that the Ebionites and Nazarenes were one and the same group…

I haven’t read the book but it looks intriguing…

Originally posted Disturbinati
Also the Shiloh prophecy, when the scepter passed from Jacob, Shiloh, a mystery word, is related to Shalom-Salaam, which shares a root with Islam.

Shares what root with Islam…?


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Origen did not mention Nazarenes like I said, Epiphanius 5th century, you have the alleged distinguishing​ charactaristic between the two right but wrong father.

Origen was eventually declared a heretic but was cool. I have his commentaries on Matthew and John, have not read them yet. A disciple of fellow (and post-mortem-declared) heretic Clement of Alexandria and great minds both, even if they rely on Paul for quotes too much, at least Clement, "The Apostle" he calls him, as is common in the era, otherwise I enjoy the "True Gnostic" and other of his writings.

According to Jerome and/or Ep. you are correct re: virgin birth vs no virgin birth.

Consider this. Isaiah Scroll, the only complete book in the DSS Canonical portions, doesn't prophecy of a virgin birth.

Our Matthew uses the Septuagint and does have it.

It's confusion regarding who used what, Gospel of the Hebrews, but it's because nobody talks about Symmachus the Ebionite whose disciples are called Nazarenes.

But why would Jews believe in or expect a virgin birth, Hellenistic nonsense is how they'd have viewed it, as I see it if it isn't prophecy they don't believe it regarding the Messiah?

I will be honest even though it is in the Qur'an I have trouble believing this was believed by the Nazarenes, it isn't in any quotes from the Fathers of G. of Hebrew, Clement nor Jerome, Origen was furious about the Mother Holy Spirit metaphor (which proves Father is just a metaphor too if Jerome argues "Mother" is because "Spirit" is fem. in Hebrew, true, it would apply to "she" and not "Mother" though, and Peter uses she in S. H&R of Clement, not Mother, letting the honor remain to Jesus (pbuh) presumably. Metaphorically​.

Still "Our Father" in Heaven. Not "My Father."

I am rather inclined to believe that a much deeper meaning is meant by virgin birth than the exoteric thinker can handle if it means that they can't take it literally, which is fallacy because you can take it literally if it doesn't mean actual supernatural conception but as a (virgin) metaphor for exemplary purity and also for the living ressurection, the one before death the enlightened know about born of the Spirit and fire, the triple Baptism, mentionied by Peter in H&R. John the Baptist in the Bible.

a reply to: Joecroft


The words Salaam and Islam share a root.

Shiloh-Shalom-Salaam-Islam.

And with the last Jewish Kingdom eliminated by Islam I think it is perfectly reasonable to interpret it that way. I can't take credit, JewsforAllah.com has it and much more fascinating information about the 3 religions, Messianic Jews are sort of exposed, it's a good site.

a reply to: Joecroft


Well without evidence if they make such a claim they are not really historians, just theorists.

I have never heard anyone put forth a reason from ancient records to assume the Biblical Nazarenes were Essenes, that's nonsense.

Essenes has to correspond to Hasidim because of what Philo said, it means piety/pious, refers to he says.

Thats Hasidim and they are in the Scrolls but historians have not put this together. I just did myself today but I don't call myself that or pretend to be, I really think they should have noticed it at least ONE!

Maybe Eisenman does I don't have all his books and they are 1,000 page books I hear, the one about James is 2 volumes it is insane how good he is, I read his articles and have DSS Uncovered only but I don't know if he does put it together and actually he can't, Osim is what he posits ''Doers", disappointing but I forgive him. Makes me feel special.

I also noticed the Poleme-Ebionite Paul story on my own, can find no one else.

I wish someone important would notice.

I don't know another scholar of the DSS as thorough as Eisenman, he connects to parallels in the Talmud, from Josephus, Hippolytus, Heggesipus. More than anyone he has written about their relationship with the New Testament, and makes a good case for Paul as the "Lying Tongue." It evokes the Epistle of James quite nice. Tongues of fire are also mentioned though not forked (serpentine) tongues like in Acts, I always wondered about that.

Righteous Teacher was hung on a tree on Passover too! What!!! It's in the era the Talmud says Jesus pbuh was done that to! Before 1 AD, if they are correct and I believe they are, as it seems like he has been dead for a while in them.

The most significant thing I noticed is the 12/3/1 hierarchy, the concept of Zaddikim as in Ya'akov ha Zaddik or Righteous One, James the Just in Hebrew, Ebionim-"Poor Saints", "Remember the Poor", and I think the Hasidim sect may have seperated, I can find no reason to connect them to a sect in the Bible but if you find the word pious, think it through.

Sons of Salvation/Yesha, the Way, Yeshua meaning the same as Yesha, salvation and not "Yah saves" as people say.

Isaiah means that, Yeshayahu, I am almost certain.

And in the War Scroll they mention, using the Torah, they want to crush the "Sons of Sheth/Seth" an OT Moabite tribe that has to correspond to someone of that era, the first century AD, I would say good evidence of an early Sethian existence and it's easy to see why they would be enemies. And awkward as they opted for Jesus as a new Seth at some point pbut.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted Disturbinati
Origen did not mention Nazarenes like I said, Epiphanius 5th century, you have the alleged distinguishing charactaristic between the two right but wrong father.

Origen does not specifically mention the word “Nazarenes” but it’s believed he is referring to them in the “Contra Celsus”…but instead refers to them as another sect of Ebionites…

Let it be admitted, moreover, that there are some who accept Jesus, and who boast on that account of being Christians, and yet would regulate their lives, like the Jewish multitude, in accordance with the Jewish law,--and these are the twofold sect of Ebionites, who either acknowledge with us that Jesus was born of a virgin, or deny this, and maintain that He was begotten like other human beings

Contra Celsus

- JC