Old Souls...

Originally posted by zenlover28
Research. It's not logical. Can you explain it for me and make it logical?

I don't think you're going to find out what and how the soul works through exlusively intellectual reading. To say anything about it with any confidence requires experience.

Disclaimer: The following is solely my opinion, and may not be the absolute truth, but it might.

When we die we enter, or gain consciousness of another body. We usually enter the astral, the 5th dimension. Here we leave our personality, and egos; It is this part that mediums communicate with when they "talk" with the dead. After discarding everything but our consciousness we move onto the 6th dimension, the causal. Here we stay until there is another physical vehicle ready for us to incarnate into.

When we are dreaming, we are in the 5th dimension, in the astral. By observing dreams we can see that we are able to think, and remember past events while dreaming. It is therefore logical that after death these thinking skills will not be inhibited, even by the loss of the physical body.







[edit on 18/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

See Akashic, I think it's all a matter of interpretation. I've been to the astral, my interpretation of it was that my brain created everything there. Nothing more, nothing less. If I have a negative thought in the astral then I have a negative experience or vice versa.

Let me throw this out there for you. I have had plenty of soul level experience. My most peaceful moments are when i'm in a deep meditation and my brain is not running constantly with thoughts, emotions, etc. What if when we die our souls are simply at peace. Peace being knowing nothing about anything? We just become energy not knowing love, hate, fear, nothing. Is that a hard sell?

Edited for mispelling.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28
See Akashic, I think it's all a matter of interpretation. I've been to the astral, my interpretation of it was that my brain created everything their. Nothing more, nothing less. If I have a negative thought in the astral then I have a negative experience or vice versa.

The astral is the deam world. Any thought you have will directly and subconsciously affect the matter there, so saying that it is made up because you can change it is not really valid.

You can conduct experiments to show that the astral is indeed an objective dimension:

Get a deck of cards, choose one randomly face down, and put it somewhere in the room you're projecting. Then go project, lift the card once you have split, memorize it, and wake yourself up. Then see if the card you saw in the astral was the right one .

I have also met people in the astral, and then the next day confirmed with the person that this experience did indeed happen.

Let me throw this out there for you. I have had plenty of soul level experience. My most peaceful moments are when i'm in a deep meditation and my brain is not running constantly with thoughts, emotions, etc.

I can relate to that . My most peaceful moments have also been during the absence of thoughts. When I finally let this moment be, without any conditioned mind-patterns labelling it, or being in the past or the future. When we are not thinking, there is no ego, there is just pure consciousness, and with it comes a deep sense of peace.

What if when we die our souls are simply at peace.

This is very much what the causal dimension is like. No egos, just pure consciousness. We are at peace, and although we can still use the mind, we are no longer run by the incessant and conditioned mind-patters used by the ego. The mind, and thoughts now become a tool for us, rather than an object that controls us.

Peace being knowing nothing about anything?

That's where I differ, peace to me is just letting everything be.

We just become energy not knowing love, hate, fear, nothing. Is that a hard sell?

Not at all, I agree with that.

[edit on 18/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on some points. We should let this thread get back to its original topic. If you want to start a thread to get deeper into discussion about it, i'll join in. Thanks.

>>>>>I don't think you're going to find out what and how the soul works through exlusively intellectual reading. To say anything about it with any confidence requires experience.

Disclaimer: The following is solely my opinion, and may not be the absolute truth, but it might.

When we die we enter, or gain consciousness of another body. We usually enter the astral, the 5th dimension. Here we leave our personality, and egos; It is this part that mediums communicate with when they "talk" with the dead. After discarding everything but our consciousness we move onto the 6th dimension, the causal. Here we stay until there is another physical vehicle ready for us to incarnate into.

When we are dreaming, we are in the 5th dimension, in the astral. By observing dreams we can see that we are able to think, and remember past events while dreaming. It is therefore logical that after death these thinking skills will not be inhibited, even by the loss of the physical body.>>>>

Very well described and accurate, but it is my opinion only too, but I am giving you a way up for being able to explain it with an occam's razor approach.
May I add that there is more than one family one can choose from and also be able to see the love-making in that your are conceived.

Originally posted by p a v e l
I often feel that I am ancient. Not simply old, but very ancient. Ever since I was a small child, I've felt this way, never really understanding what this interesting sensation could mean until I became interested in the paranormal.

I too often feel like this almost as if everyone around me just accepts their day to day existence on face value and have no knowledge or care of the vast amount of things going on around them that are just under the surface of the seen. I have a deep appreciation of history but not "world History" as it is taught in schools but ancient history that can only be conjectured upon by scientists and scholars. I believe that ancient knowledge was deliberately wiped out by religious authorities who felt the need to suppress in order to rule. I feel as if I have been here before and not on one occasion.
I experience deja vu alot and a couple of times have avoided danger because of it. My family says that I have the witches mark in the form of my eyes which officialy are hazel brown but have been known to change color with my mood. So far people have stated that my eyes are green, grey, and once red. I have never worn contacts and am a black male of American Indian & Puerto Rican origins. My grandmother says we are decendants of Thomas Jefferson also being that he raped my ancestors but that is unconfirmed although my grandmother, aunt, and myself are the only lightskinned people in the whole family. They too are old souls.



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[edit on 20-10-2005 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by zenlover28
I agree that their is intelligent energy out there, but i'm not so sure i'm going to buy into our souls having all of these capabilities without the brain.

Yes that is exactly what i belive, ever hear of ghosts? how about spirits? what do you think these are?

i think part of what missing, is that your confusing the functions of the brain with the function of the soul. the soul is what thinks.. and the brain turns thought into chemical electircal impulses that make the body respond.

the body is a microcosm, all the things within the body reflect the order of the universe.. now before you ask for proof of this.. look it up.. you'll find plenty of matieral on the matter.

now consider that the body is like a computer, the compenents and hardware are the flesh, the operating system (the windows program) is the brain, and the person using the computer is the soul.. now suppose that person gets up and leaves... what is the computer gonna do? not a whole lot. it might have a few subroutines and predetermined processes going on, but without a person at the keyboard, nothing new will happen

and no, i dont belive that energy is merely what makes our brain function.. energy is what makes EVERYTHING function, but without the energy of the soul our brains are merely a collection of fatty cholesterol deposits (Look that up too). remember it is scientific fact that the brain runs on chemical electircal energy... ENERGY, where does that energy come from? before you suggest that that energy comes soley from the brain, ask yourself this.. does a battery make it's own energy? no, that energy is put into the battery




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[edit on 20-10-2005 by kinglizard]

Becon, dear I agreed regarding energy. But, I disagreed regarding energy being primarily what makes our brain function. What bothers me is that you all give "energy" human traits. Even a rock is full of energy, but it doesn't mean that the energy feels, thinks, communicates, etc. Everything is connected by energy and I have no doubt about that. But, you can't prove to me or even convince me that energy without the human brain has human traits.

As far as ghosts, spirits or as I like to call them "energies" positive or negative however your brain perceives it. Yes, I believe they exist. But, your brain is what interprets that energy as good/bad. Without the human brain you would not know the difference.

Edited to remove some excess quotes

[edit on 19-10-2005 by zenlover28]

[edit on 19-10-2005 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28

Becon, dear I agreed regarding energy. But, I disagreed regarding energy being primarily what makes our brain function. What bothers me is that you all give "energy" human traits. Even a rock is full of energy, but it doesn't mean that the energy feels, thinks, communicates, etc. Everything is connected by energy and I have no doubt about that. But, you can't prove to me or even convince me that energy without the human brain has human traits.

As far as ghosts, spirits or as I like to call them "energies" positive or negative however your brain perceives it. Yes, I believe they exist. But, your brain is what interprets that energy as good/bad. Without the human brain you would not know the difference.


[edit on 19-10-2005 by zenlover28]

i only give human energy human traits, the energy of a rock is just that.. and the rock has no need to think or reason... and thus it's energy does not do so.

That having been said.. there are many types of energy, the human body uses electro chemical energy, as do all living creatures.. but a lightbulb uses electical and converts it to photonic energy to create light..

and again.. i think your confusing the function of the brain with the function of the soul.. the soul is the energy that powers the brain.. the brain does not power anything.. but is powered, again i ask you to consider the battery.. does the battery create energy? or is the energy put there to power the battery?

Lastly.. is it the brain that "precieves" the positive or negative of those energys that we agree are spirits or ghosts? or is it the soul that "Feels" it

i would be inclined to belive that it is the soul that feels it.. and the brain that processes and interpruts the feeling... i have never "precieved" positive or negative energy.. but i can say without doubt that i feel such things in my soul.. at which time my brain agrees with my soul.

before you post a reply to this.. take the next day to honestly reflect and meditate on what i have said and see if it sparks anything within you.

Becon, I would take the day to meditate on it, but see I don't have to. There are so many problems with what you are saying. What you are doing is allowing your ego to empower you by somehow thinking that human energy is above other energy or somehow "special". As far as feelings they are controlled by a number of factors from our endocrine system to the brain. Intuition at the soul level can be explained by the correct use and combination of all of our senses. Take a blind person for example. They are in touch with and use their senses to a point where a person who can see doesn't. This makes their intuition sharper.

I understand that everyone wants to believe that our souls have a mind. But, this comes from the human ego of wanting to believe we have some grand purpose or special purpose in and beyond life. Near death experiences are a good example. What if a near death experience is just the experience of going to the astral? You're still connected to the physical until the brain dies. The brain is not always dead yet just because your heart stops beating and can still function for awhile until it dies from lack of oxygen and blood flow. So in reality you're still creating reality until you're brain slowly erases your very existence.

To sum it up, human energy is made human because of the way the brain processes the energy. Just as a plant's energy is different from human energy because of the photosynthetic process of basic sunlight. Without the brain human energy is just energy. It's not special. We're not special. We just have larger brains in life and therefore are more advanced and evolved. We live, we die and our energy makes its way back not to further our soul's evolution, but to further the process of human evolution as a whole.

Now, perhaps YOU should take a day or two and meditate on what I have said.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by zenlover28]

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[edit on 20-10-2005 by kinglizard]

know what.. i am done trying to help you.. you didnt even take 3 hours to consider my words.. and you have the audacity to tell me to take a day or two to consider yours? which btw i considered years ago.. when i decided there was something more.. thats what we call spirituality and faith

there is obiviously nothing i can say to do anything to alter your mind on this.. and so i am not even gonna try, you have put a huge wall around your mind.. a wall with "i'm right and your wrong" spray painted on it.

So lets put it to a vote.. To the people veiwing this post.. who's words ring more true to you? whos words stir your soul?

Originally posted by Becon of Light
know what.. i am done trying to help you.. you didnt even take 3 hours to consider my words.. and you have the audacity to tell me to take a day or two to consider yours? which btw i considered years ago.. when i decided there was something more.. thats what we call spirituality and faith

there is obiviously nothing i can say to do anything to alter your mind on this.. and so i am not even gonna try, you have put a huge wall around your mind.. a wall with "i'm right and your wrong" spray painted on it.

So lets put it to a vote.. To the people veiwing this post.. who's words ring more true to you? whos words stir your soul?

LOLOL Becon...talk about audacity! You all can vote all you wish. I simply came in this string and made a remark and then I was taken up on my remark. So, who was trying to convince who there? My mind has no wall around it, my dear.

I'll leave you with one last thought, why when an elderly person has a stroke can they lose their memory? Because memories are stored in the brain, right? Not the soul? It's common sense. And I choose to use mine.

Have a nice day dear!



btw...maybe you shouldn't be trying to help people unless they ask for it.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28
why when an elderly person has a stroke can they lose their memory? Because memories are stored in the brain, right? Not the soul? It's common sense. And I choose to use mine.

When someone "loses" their memory, it is not their memory that has been lost, but their ability to consciously perceive and infer information from it.

I would also like to add that we are not debating where memory is stored, but rather if the soul can indeed store it. If the physical body can store it seems irrelevant, as we are discussing your disbelief in "old souls" due to the inability for the soul to store memories.


[edit on 20/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Akashic..there is a problem with that. If the soul in facts stores memories then why would you need the brain the perceive the information? Shouldn't you just know if it is in fact stored in the soul????

btw...that is not the only reason I disbelieve in the old sould new soul theory.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by zenlover28]

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[edit on 20-10-2005 by kinglizard]

Attention All,

This thread is overflowing with BIG Quoting. Please do your best to only quote what is absolutely necessary to make your point (no more than 4 lines). I love reading everything twice but Sheesh....lol I love reading everything twice but Sheesh....lol

Thanks Guys/Gals...

Have a wonderful day.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Akashic..there is a problem with that. If the soul in facts stores memories then why would you need the brain the perceive the information? Shouldn't you just know if it is in fact stored in the soul????

Information cannot be processed by itself. You cannot look at a tree and mentally judge it and label it as a tree just with your eyes alone; You need your brain to analyze the visual sensory perception to be able to perceive it. The same applies to memory; Just because it is stored does not mean we can consciously analyze it, if our brain is damaged.

btw...that is not the only reason I disbelieve in the old sould new soul theory.

Do you mind telling us other reasons? I'm sure it'd make for interesting discussion .

I'm sorry Akashic maybe i'm misunderstanding something here, but I thought you all said that it was the "mind" that thinks and hence since you believe the soul is the mind then the brain should have nothing to do with the interpretation of memories if the soul's mind is what thinks? Is this not what you believe?

As far as other reasons that I do not believe in the theory. Well, it's a completely egotistical theory. In saying that you are more evolved than another because you've lived more lives, blah blah blah. It's complete and utter ego thinking you are superior. It's just as the Bible gives God human traits, making him out to be this completely egotistical, jealous God that will condemn us all to hell for breathing the wrong way and not bowing down to beg him for forgiveness. The only way humans are more evolved is because of our brain being larger. It doesn't make any other lifeform less than us we are just capable of more because of the size of our brain.

The soul is not human therefore should not be given human traits and characteristics. Do birds have a soul? Do flies have a soul? Or are they so far beneath humans that they are not justified in having this eternal life that we supposedly have?

[edit on 20-10-2005 by zenlover28]

edited mispellings...typing tooooo fast.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by zenlover28]

So, let me get this straight. You all believe that after our soul leaves our body that we in fact still have thinking, feeling, sensory and communication abilities?

Okay so I went back to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding what you were saying Akashic and you answered yes to that question.

So, you've answered yes to the fact that the soul's mind has the ability to think, feel, communicate and other sensory abilities. Which means that your argument regarding an elderly person losing their memory because the brain cannot process the memories cannot be valid. Look, I don't want to argue and i'm not looking to. But, you keep asking! LOL. You're a nice person really! You've kept a real level head while I was debating you! Kuddos to you!

[edit on 20-10-2005 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28
I'm sorry Akashic maybe i'm misunderstanding something here, but I thought you all said that it was the "mind" that thinks and hence since you believe the soul is the mind then the brain should have nothing to do with the interpretation of memories if the soul's mind is what thinks? Is this not what you believe?

No, I'm sorry if I led you to believe that. All I am saying is that the soul CAN process thought, not that this excludes the physical body from doing so also. They both can .

Well, it's a completely egotistical theory. In saying that you are more evolved than another because you've lived more lives

Agreed

The only way humans are more evolved is because of our brain being larger.

If by humans you mean our physical bodies then I agree.

The soul is not human therefore should not be given human traits and characteristics.

You are correct, the soul cannot be held to be a copy of the physical body. To me the soul is another body, in another dimension. It is the body you inhabit between incarnations. It is very different from the physical body, but there can be said to be similarities.

Do birds have a soul? Do flies have a soul?

Yes.

Or are they so far beneath humans that they are not justified in having this eternal life that we supposedly have?

Not at all .

So, you've answered yes to the fact that the soul's mind has the ability to think, feel, communicate and other sensory abilities. Which means that your argument regarding an elderly person losing their memory because the brain cannot process the memories cannot be valid.

As I said earlier, the soul having the ability to think, feel, communicate and perceive sensory perception, does not inhibit the physical body's ability too. Therefore when an elderly person loses the ability to perceive and infer information from memories, it has nothing to do with the soul's capabilities, but the capabilities of the physical body.

There are many different types of amnesia, are you referring to certain memories being lost, new memories not being able to be remembered, or a total memory loss? By seeing which type of amnesia you are referring to, we can investigate whether it is caused by the deletion of memory, or the inability to analyze, and perceive it.


[edit on 20/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

excepting that there is a 'life force' in everything living, and I for one do, what is its purpose? Are we just being 'harvested' for a multidimensional mmorpg, or are we, as bill hicks put "one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, life is only a dream and we are the imaginations of ourselves"

I dont get the reason

[edit on 20/10/05 by Strodyn]