EYE-OPENER..Universal HealthCare In America Would Be Surprisingly Inexpensive.!

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: carewemust

In order to make that service your right, you are attempting to enslave an entire group of people to you to service you because you don't want to be responsible to pay them for their services.

We covered this off in the other thread about Australian Medicare.

How much money does a person need to earn? How many cars and servants does one need in life?

Our Doctors in Australia still drive Mercedes Benz and the likes. They still have fancy houses. We still have great medical research via our universities. And most importantly, they are definitely NOT slaves. In fact the average salary of surgeons ranges from just over $97,000 right through to $325,000 for these people. The average salary in Australia is just over $78,000. So they are earning well above average money.

www.payscale.com...=General_Surgeon/Salary

www.livingin-australia.com...

And remember, our TOTAL spend as a % of GDP on healthcare is almost half of America's 17.1% at 9.1%. New Zealand and UK are similar to Australia in total spend, using the same sort of universal system.

The issue is that the American medical establishment has developed a God complex and a terrible sense of entitlement. That and your system is run for profit meaning that you always pay more than the service actually costs so that you can line someone's pockets with cash.

Maybe the Australian government isn't as corrupt as the United States government. Americans have seen government program after government program take money from us and then have those funds misappropriated and used for things we didn't want them used for. We don't need to give our government more money. We need to give it less.

When I moved to the UK, I was blown away by how little the NHS contributions are, compared to what Americans pay for health insurance. The quality of the health care was also much better than I had been led to believe it would be.

As to whether or not such a system could be implemented here in the U.S., I think it would have to be done at the state level to succeed.

a reply to: ketsuko

It's interesting you would take this line.

Firstly, if your thoughts RE nobody wanting to work for less than US doctors are paid, then there would be a chronic shortage of medical practitioners globally. But there isn't.

Secondly, case and point about how much money people actually need;

Combined, my partner and I earn $50,000 per year LESS than the Australian average salary for two people. We've been together coming up 11 years and in that time I've been out of work for about 12 months and him 6 months. But we still have been able to afford:

- 2 holidays through Europe
- A holiday in Asia
- 10 holidays in New Zealand
- Countless weekends away camping
- 4 used cars, then we transitioned to
- 5 brand new cars
- 2 used caravans
- Dinner in restaurants whenever we want

And in 2016 we bought a home together that we are now renovating.

I'd say that's a pretty darned good life. As far as happiness goes, I can say I am extremely happy and grateful for what I have.

So, tell me why someone needs to earn 10 times more than me?

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: ketsuko

It's interesting you would take this line.

Firstly, if your thoughts RE nobody wanting to work for less than US doctors are paid, then there would be a chronic shortage of medical practitioners globally. But there isn't.

Secondly, case and point about how much money people actually need;

Combined, my partner and I earn $50,000 per year LESS than the Australian average salary for two people. We've been together coming up 11 years and in that time I've been out of work for about 12 months and him 6 months. But we still have been able to afford:

- 2 holidays through Europe
- A holiday in Asia
- 10 holidays in New Zealand
- Countless weekends away camping
- 4 used cars, then we transitioned to
- 5 brand new cars
- 2 used caravans
- Dinner in restaurants whenever we want

And in 2016 we bought a home together that we are now renovating.

I'd say that's a pretty darned good life. As far as happiness goes, I can say I am extremely happy and grateful for what I have.

So, tell me why someone needs to earn 10 times more than me?

To help pay for the things you were able to afford with the subsidies you got through the government.

a reply to: markosity1973

Statistics are just numbers. We dont need the highest are lowest numbers to be the best country in the world.

a reply to: Throes

I'm a Kiwi citizen and I get zero government subsidies. I was not even eligible for any assistance financially when I was out of work

In short, the ONLY money I have received in the last ten years has been from working at my job.

Same with my partner. Neither of us are eligible for any monetary assistance.

Unless you address the outrageous cost of healthcare in the US, any plan either government or market driven is doomed to failure over the mid to long term. Politicians know this, but they also know how much of GDP is healthcare related and that any true fix causes an immediate and deep drop in GDP they definitely know how much of the Healthcare /Pharma industries bezzle flows into their pockets.

Despite my small government leanings, I'm cool with a public option if costs are truly addressed. If you want to see what a REAL market driven plan would look like check this out. A Bill To Permanently Fix Healthcare For All

a reply to: markosity1973

Is that why some places in Canada have a lottery to see whether or not they will be taken as patients by their local general practitioner?

If there wasn't ever a doctor shortage, then the UK wouldn't need to import so many doctors and Canadians who live outside the cities wouldn't have wait on long waiting lists or in lotteries for spots with the local doctors.

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: Throes

I'm a Kiwi citizen and I get zero government subsidies. I was not even eligible for any assistance financially when I was out of work

In short, the ONLY money I have received in the last ten years has been from working at my job.

Same with my partner. Neither of us are eligible for any monetary assistance.

How many poor, third world immigrants is your system propping up?

a reply to: ketsuko

Who has the biggest debt, not only in dollar terms, but as a % of GDP?

Who sets up 'Aid' camps in countries and then never goes home?

a reply to: ketsuko

Maybe you want the guy who want's to be top dog dollar wise..I want the guy who cares about people..and makes a pretty good living.
And WTF is free?? it's paid via taxes, not free last time I did my income tax.

a reply to: jefwane

Denninger has been spot on the healthcare issue for a long time.

Today read an article using CBO numbers showing almost 49% increase in government spending on medical since 2008.

That total number was over 1 Trillion dollars and is on track with Denningers math.

Here's an October 2016 commentary to ponder,

The CERTAIN Destruction of Our Nation

Denninger spells out quite clearly what ramifications of doing nothing are.

Economic Cataclysm is good description.

a reply to: Phoenix

Been reading him since 2007, he was one of the handful of folks that sounded the alarm about what was coming in 2008-9. It's a shame he mostly quit commenting on markets a few years ago, the site is still there but with the exception of the healthcare scam, keto diet, and occasional reviews of products he doesn't really put much out any more. Most of his numbers are straight out of Treasury or other official or respected sources.

No one in any policy making or news reporting position is saying a damn word about why every medical service or good in the US costs from 5 to 1000's of times what it does anywhere else. Until this is addressed no plan put forth by either party that is private, public, or hybrid will do more than extend the day of reckoning by more than a few years, and even that will become increasingly more difficult the longer cost goes unaddressed.

a reply to: markosity1973

This article pretty well sums up why physicians charge so much here in the USA. THEY HAVE TO, because their ongoing cost of being a physician is America is so darn high!

Why # Doctors is Declining in USA: www.forbes.com...#

A little-known, but startling fact, is that Doctors in the USA are committing suicide in greater numbers than people in general. So much stress.

""Each year in the United States, 300 to 400 physicians die from suicide — that’s one a day, or the equivalent of two large medical school classes. Female physicians are 2.3 times more likely to die by suicide than those in the general population; male physicians, 1.4 times more likely. The terrible truth about physician suicide is that the great majority of these deaths are due to untreated depression, meaning they are preventable.""

Source: www.statnews.com...

a reply to: Phoenix


I don't normally read articles with extreme headlines, but the 1st half of "The Certain Destruction of our Nation" was quite good. Thanx!

Nothing justifies the pricing rises of long available drugs, doctor visits where you see the doc less than 5 minutes a nurse for 10 and phlebotomist for 3 and it costs you or your insurance $200, scorpion antivenin at 10,000% markup, no estimates on cost, covenants preventing providers from giving up front cost estimates,or a myriad of other common practices in medical pricing and anticompetitive practices. If your making excuses for these costs, I have to assume either your stupid or understand damn well what's going on and are simply hoping to get your share of the extortion of the American people before it all blows up. No one who justifies the prices charged inthe US for drugs or services is serious about any part of this mess but keeping the status quo going long enough to line their pockets.

a reply to: jefwane


The bottom line reason why drugs, medical tests, hospitals, and medical treatments cost so much in America, is simply because these charges get paid.

If every American was put on a Government-run health plan tomorrow that paid medical providers 30%-50% less than what they receive now, the costs would be less. But there would be unfortunate consequences that most Americans would not be willing to put up with for long.

As of 1.1.2018 the state of IOWA will have ZERO health insurance providers for people who purchase their own health insurance. The last one standing says they're throwing in the towel on December 31st.

www.zerohedge.com...

Iowa now joins S.E. Tennessee (Knoxville metro area) with ZERO ObamaCare insurance providers for 2018.

So.. it's either AHCA or Universal Health Care for 2018.

originally posted by: Phoenix
a reply to: Boadicea

Isn't that how ancient Greek empire failed?

Straight up democracy where the folks voted directly on all sorts of benefits for themselves.

There is a very big difference "straight up democracy" wherein the mob rules, and a Constitutional Republic in which rights are protected and defended. There is no reason why any/all such propositions could not conform to those established rights and principles. Many states have a system in place for ballot propositions; and if those propositions don't pass Constitutional muster, then they are struck down by the courts.

We never learn do we?

Any and every system can be corrupted. Our critters in Washington are doing a fine job of that right now. If/when you come up with an absolutely incorruptible system, let me know.

Our founders knew better.

Indeed. And if our critters weren't so busy destroying everything they fought for and built, we wouldn't be in this jamb right now. Part of the founding fathers' intentions was to tie the hands of government and allow the people as much freedom as possible to live and work and provide for themselves. Instead, it's government who has taken so much power from us and given corporations so much power over our health and medical care -- and therefore, our life and death.

Things like government owned roads, airports, and social security have been around a long-time too and they haven't destroyed anything.

Can any government program be abused - yes. Will there obviously be abuses in a government run healthcare - yes.

I'm not a fan of how the police but I wouldn't do away with this service just because of the abuses - you address the abuses not destroy the benefit.

This would be a boom to businesses. Right now my employer pays about $4,000 ish per employee towards their coverage and that's only for the individual employees. Some companies are paying in the $10,000 to $15,000 for their employees family coverage.

Have a system like they do in the UK, where people can opt out in private. Let people decide if their highly paid free market doctor is better than their average paid healthcare worker.