From concept of God to object of God in existence

a reply to: TzarChasm

"why do we need to know for sure?"

Because we have to get to the truth which is ultimately the
most valuable commodity on the planet.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Observationalist

No one wins, some good information is learned In between the shouting, but mostly it's a pointless battle. A battle ending that will alway lead us back to the same question;" How do we know for sure"?

i will see your philosophical quandary and raise you one: "why do we need to know for sure?"

Nice. Sometimes it's wise to fold aces. Not all questions need to be answered.


Edit: It's about the pursuit. You may never find the answer but the value is in the journey and the relationships that are made on the way.

originally posted by: Observationalist

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Observationalist

No one wins, some good information is learned In between the shouting, but mostly it's a pointless battle. A battle ending that will alway lead us back to the same question;" How do we know for sure"?

i will see your philosophical quandary and raise you one: "why do we need to know for sure?"

Nice. Sometimes it's wise to fold aces. Not all questions need to be answered.

Edit: It's about the pursuit. You may never find the answer but the value is in the journey and the relationships that are made on the way.

some people make the mistake of thinking the journey will complete them as opposed to leaving them more lost and bewildered than ever. ironically, many search among the figurative stars for an answer that they always had right next to them the whole time. the stars just taught them how to recognize it.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: TzarChasm

"why do we need to know for sure?"

Because we have to get to the truth which is ultimately the
most valuable commodity on the planet.

we have to? according to whom? it is egotistical to think you are obligated to possess any truth at all. your understanding is irrelevant to life, the earth, and the cosmos. our ignorance will not impact reality anymore than a black hole in a distant galaxy affects us. cosmic insignificance balanced with humanitarian optimism. the reality of our infinitesimal relevance firmly paired with the philosophy that being a good person is good for society. the most valuable commodity on the planet is time, because time is perspective. you are welcome to your own opinion of course, your own perspective. this is merely what i think. my understanding rivals yours, which is to say, our understanding is ashes in the wind.

originally posted by: LucidWarrior
a reply to: mOjOm

We aren't talking about sun's or galaxies or matter or physics. We're talking before all that. All that is a chain reaction, which begs the question, how did it start?

And, for your last question, you already answered it. "nothing can bring itself into existence." God IS nothing! Zero. Nirvana

I have no problem accepting that as being true and accurate as a way of explaining God. God is Nothing. Zero. Void or Potential. The void implies an emptiness to be filled with something but not something itself. Potential is something before it is something but isn't yet. Even the Fibonacci sequence begins with zero and grows from there and never requires the zero to repeat but it still must be included at the start.

It make sense as far as I'm concerned in a weird way that is hard to explain sometimes but makes sense all the same. I'm not sure if others accept it as a meaningful way to put it, but I think it works fine. When you say God is Nothing, that can be very unacceptable for many people and their idea of what God is though.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: Pachomius This is an invitation to discuss the possibility of having in concept in our mind, and then going to the objective reality of existence outside our mind, to search for an entity corresponding to the concept in our mind, or evidence to its existence though not direct access to it as with our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and touch, and of course with our conscious attention.

Here is the concept in our mind, God [in concept in our mind] as the creator of everything with a beginning.

So, we go out into the universe and search for God, i.e. an entity that is the creator i.e. cause of everything with a beginning to its existence.

For examples of things with a beginning to their existence: babies, roses, the sun and the moon, stars and the galaxies they belong in, sub-atomic particles, and the universe itself.

All these things have a beginning to their existence, so they are evidence to the existence of an entity in concept in our mind as the creator or cause of everything in the realm of objective existence which have a beginning to their existence.

Everything in existence but having a beginning to their existence, they need a being to bring them to their beginning in existence, because they could not have brought themselves to existence, as prior to their existence they were not around.

What do the folks here say about this idea from yours truly, namely, from the concept of God in our mind, we pass to the world of objective existence outside our mind, to search for at least evidence to an entity corresponding to the concept in our mind, i.e. of God [in concept in our mind] as the creator of everything with a beginning to its existence.

You're whole premise rests on this idea right here and it being true. So before you go any further let's look at it first.

Why does everything in existence require a "being" to bring it into existence??? Where are you getting this universal law from exactly??? What proof do you have to show that some "Being" must bring things into existence before they exist???

After all, our sun didn't need a being to create it. It was created by natural forces such as gravity bringing energy and particles together and crushing them with great force. As we explore our material world around us we figure out how certain laws of physics and chemistry come together and create all sorts of things without any "being" required. Math and geometry show how these things can happen naturally without any "being" being in charge of them to operate.

There is also the issue of answering the question, "If nothing can bring itself into existence then where would the being have come from that created everything else???"

______________________

I would like to have an one on one talk with you, is that all right? Because I find that you have ideas which we can examine together as to concur on their validity or invalidity.

For example you say: [correct me if I am wrong about what you say] Natural forces and the laws of nature create everything, like you and me.

Now, are you not going to ask where do natural forces and the laws of nature come from, and by themselves why do they have to create everything that now exist, like you and me?

[Bear with me dear everyone here, for I am still trying to learn how to navigate and negotiate my way into writing and posting a message in the forums of ATS.]

a reply to: TzarChasm

we have to? according to whom?

According to you as the one asking the question. Maybe truth
wasn't the ultimate goal of your question? Maybe it was more
of a doubt than a question? IDK

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: TzarChasm

we have to? according to whom?

According to you as the one asking the question. Maybe truth
wasn't the ultimate goal of your question? Maybe it was more
of a doubt than a question? IDK

looks like you are running out of useful stuff to say, since you are resorting to sarcasm and pedantry. or you could go back and formulate a meaningful response to my points. its up to you.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I assumed truth was meaningful to you.

or you could go back and formulate a meaningful response to my points. its up to you.

Just answer me this instead, were you looking for
truth when you asked this question?

"why do we need to know for sure?"

Dear readers and posters here, I just found my previous thread made in 2011, on the same idea of looking for God in the universe.

Is it possible to organize an expedition to search for God in the Big Bang universe?
Religion, Faith, And Theology authored on Jul, 7 2011
www.abovetopsecret.com...

So, now the concept of God in my mind is "in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning," but then it was God as the creator of everything that is not God.

Now, dear posters here, I guess you are not happy that I am pursuing this idea of from our concept of God in our mind, i.e. the thought in my mind, we go forth into the universe to search for His presence, or evidence to His presence, in things which are with a beginning, i.e. they did not make themselves to come into existence.

Hcw's that? Simple there were not around as to make themselves to come to existence, that's how.

Now, you will ask, Who or What made God to come into existence?

Here is my answer, it is based on reasoning that is grounded on observation, thus bringing me to intelligent conclusion, that God exists by Himself, i.e. He is a being that always exists, even when there was no universe around - and then He created the universe, and voila we now exist as part and parcel of the universe.

Here, this is how I reason, first: from existence as the default status of things in the totality of reality.

Next: existence is of two kinds:
1. permanent existence and
2. transient existence.

God is the only being in permanent existence and He creates everything else that is not God Himself, and that is why I say that God is the creator of everything with a beginning to their exist existence.

What you can do, dear posters here who disagree with me, is to find out how we, you and I, came into existence, and that without God, in concept as the creator of everything else that is not Himself, or everything else that has a beginning to their existence.

So, dear posters who disagree with me, what is your alternative explanation for the existence of everything in the uniiverse including the universe that have a beginning to their existence, like you and me.

originally posted by: Pachomius

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: Pachomius This is an invitation to discuss the possibility of having in concept in our mind, and then going to the objective reality of existence outside our mind, to search for an entity corresponding to the concept in our mind, or evidence to its existence though not direct access to it as with our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and touch, and of course with our conscious attention.

Here is the concept in our mind, God [in concept in our mind] as the creator of everything with a beginning.

So, we go out into the universe and search for God, i.e. an entity that is the creator i.e. cause of everything with a beginning to its existence.

For examples of things with a beginning to their existence: babies, roses, the sun and the moon, stars and the galaxies they belong in, sub-atomic particles, and the universe itself.

All these things have a beginning to their existence, so they are evidence to the existence of an entity in concept in our mind as the creator or cause of everything in the realm of objective existence which have a beginning to their existence.

Everything in existence but having a beginning to their existence, they need a being to bring them to their beginning in existence, because they could not have brought themselves to existence, as prior to their existence they were not around.

What do the folks here say about this idea from yours truly, namely, from the concept of God in our mind, we pass to the world of objective existence outside our mind, to search for at least evidence to an entity corresponding to the concept in our mind, i.e. of God [in concept in our mind] as the creator of everything with a beginning to its existence.

You're whole premise rests on this idea right here and it being true. So before you go any further let's look at it first.

Why does everything in existence require a "being" to bring it into existence??? Where are you getting this universal law from exactly??? What proof do you have to show that some "Being" must bring things into existence before they exist???

After all, our sun didn't need a being to create it. It was created by natural forces such as gravity bringing energy and particles together and crushing them with great force. As we explore our material world around us we figure out how certain laws of physics and chemistry come together and create all sorts of things without any "being" required. Math and geometry show how these things can happen naturally without any "being" being in charge of them to operate.

There is also the issue of answering the question, "If nothing can bring itself into existence then where would the being have come from that created everything else???"

______________________


Dear mOjOm, I would like to have an one on one talk with you, is that all right? Because I find that you have ideas which we can examine together as to concur on their validity or invalidity.

For example you say: [correct me if I am wrong about what you say] Natural forces and the laws of nature create everything, like you and me.

Now, are you not going to ask where do natural forces and the laws of nature come from, and by themselves why do they have to create everything that now exist, like you and me?

[Bear with me dear everyone here, for I am still trying to learn how to navigate and negotiate my way into writing and posting a message in the forums of ATS.]

a reply to: TzarChasm

some people make the mistake of thinking the journey will complete them as opposed to leaving them more lost and bewildered than ever. ironically, many search among the figurative stars for an answer that they always had right next to them the whole time. the stars just taught them how to recognize it.

Well the journey is where the relationships happen. Where you ask those questions of trust, and commitment.

The journey is not a solitary neat and clean funnel that takes us to a a final solution where everything is sterile just the way we knew it would be. I believe that the journey is messy by design. The mess keeps us asking questions, stumbling in and out of love and commitment. Designed for us to lean not lean on our own understanding. This mess births hope and faith.

I know many will disagree, but the Bible is a great source to learn about those messy concepts. Its seen from the Garden to Tower of Bable to Jesus who's message of love and hope frustrated those trying to sterilize faith. He built his church out of relationships not perfectly cut stone.

originally posted by: Pachomius

For example you say: [correct me if I am wrong about what you say] Natural forces and the laws of nature create everything, like you and me.

Now, are you not going to ask where do natural forces and the laws of nature come from, and by themselves why do they have to create everything that now exist, like you and me?

You may have to be more clear or specific with what you're asking but what I meant by Natural Forces was that they are inherent within the properties of nature itself. For example let's say a beautiful sandy beach on the coast. It wasn't made by intent or some being wanting a nice strip of soft sand by the water to rub their toes in before swimming. The beach need not be created by a being with intent on making it. It is simply the result water and wind eroding rock and land slowly over time breaking it down where the two meet.

We might think of it as the perfect and beautiful thing that had to be planned but it's just what happens when the right conditions are met.

a reply to: mOjOm

just what happens when the right conditions are met.

And there are absolutely no limits to how many times the
certain and many times precise conditions. Can just magically be
met, even in the midst but never interceding on a single other
condition that if any were unaccounted for or even slightly skewed?
The whole gawddamn magic show minus a magician?
Becomes a universal train wreck, because there was no engineer.
It must suck not knowing God exists.

a reply to: randyvs

You're taking what I said out of context first of all. The conditions that make a beach are nothing special.

I know you like the idea of feeling superior and claiming to know things you don't know but nobody Knows Gods Existence. Not a Being known as God that is. Not even you.

You believe God exists just like others believe God exists. But what you Know you can Show why you Know it. So why don't you show why you think you know it and if it's so convincing to have convinced you, then maybe it might convince others. Otherwise you're just making empty claims because it makes you feel like you know something others don't.

Somehow, even if God did exist, I doubt you of all people everywhere would somehow be the chosen one to be allowed access to such knowledge over everyone else. But maybe I'm wrong. So let's hear and see your proof and an explanation of what God you're talking about too because that is also important.

a reply to: mOjOm

You're taking what I said out of context first of all. The conditions that make a beach are nothing special.

I thought that was allowed on ATS?

I know you like the idea of feeling superior and claiming to know things you don't know but nobody Knows Gods Existence. Not a Being known as God that is. Not even you.

You got me all wrong Mo. It's actually the more superior feeling
that is KNOWING I'm more superior. That's actually where my
sites were set chief. Don't screw it up again?

You believe God exists just like others believe God exists. But what you Know you can Show why you Know it. So why don't you show why you think you know it and if it's so convincing to have convinced you, then maybe it might convince others. Otherwise you're just making empty claims because it makes you feel like you know something others don't.

Mo, are you just setting yourself up on purpose to see if i
take full advantage? Believe it or not I do know a plethora of
crap no one else knows. And I make no empty claims about those
knowables either. So please, you're boring with that.

Somehow, even if God did exist, I doubt you of all people everywhere would somehow be the chosen one to be allowed access to such knowledge over everyone else. But maybe I'm wrong. So let's hear and see your proof and an explanation of what God you're talking about too because that is also important.

Well there's just no way in hell even you can believe your view is right!
Because the chances of that aren't even argueable no matter how far you
can stretch that noodle.

Same God the OP is talk'n about!

originally posted by: randyvs

Mo, are you just setting yourself up on purpose to see if i
take full advantage? Believe it or not I do know a plethora of
crap no one else knows. And I make no empty claims about those
knowables either. So please, you're boring with that.

Well the stage is yours oh wise one. Don't hold back on schooling all of us who are ignorant of your superior knowledge. Let it rip pal. You say you don't make empty claims. Fine. Prove it. Explain away and wonder us with what you know that we don't and the proof to back it up. The proof to back up what you say of course being the critical part.

Well there's just no way in hell even you can believe your view is right!
Because the chances of that aren't even argueable no matter how far you
can stretch that noodle.

I didn't really explain my view other than to give an example of natural forces making a beach and how there are natural forces everywhere creating and changing things that people once attributed to Gods that we know now require no such thing at all.

But of course, who cares about my views anyway. You're the one with superior knowledge right??? So let's hear it then. Or are you just going to make empty claims all day???

originally posted by: TzarChasm in 100 years we have accomplished more

Accomplished what exactly? What's your metric? Like every other time someone makes this kind of statement, all I see is some vague mumbling about some ill-defined notion of "progress". Its alright though, I can see its a matter of faith for you.

we established bona fide control over our fates and fortunes.

originally posted by: Astyanax
On the contrary, everything indicates that our concepts are developed empirically

Granted.....

and are constantly changing.

Ouch. And there it is. Time for an "about face."

Indeed, we think at all times and everywhere in terms of constantly changing, unreal, illusory concepts and representations. And so what are we left with, then? What does all reason and logic ultimately say we're left with? Abstract form, noumenon, what's grasped only by the mind. Or else we're left with nothing at all.

a reply to: mOjOm

C'mon Mo, lighten up at least a little will ya? Don't you see the irony at all?
I mean here i am, the one who's being held to a higher standard where this kind
of testimony is in the house. Simply by what I've been compelled thru my
own fairness to not just believe or disbelieve. But thru my own very careful
checks, balances, weights and measures, thru a great amount of time, believe
I know!

And I'm still not anywhere close to as stiff as you in this discussion.
What baring does that have on the topic you might ask? I site Pascals wager.
My state of mind is just more comfortable and relaxed even if I only think
I know something? I'm still so content and happy. You have to sell yourself
on what you believe. I'm bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

And I'm not look'n for any falsehoods to that so I can live my life the way
I want to. I am living my life the way I want to. I have more faith in the blood
than anyone I know. Because I believe you can't have to much faith
in he who is risen. I don't see that message even being sent
out any where. That the blood of the Lamb of God wipes away the
sins of the whole world. That most likely includes yours and mine also.

Not just past not just present but future as well.
But it doesn't mean you can't find that message, if you look. What I
believe is the truth even by another very simple way. By the way it's
completely hated right here on this God forsaken site. By so many.

How someone could die 2000 yrs ago in total obscurity? And also as
a person whos message was a great love worth idolizing. Tender and
kind etc. If he were a normal man he would of stayed in that powerless
obscurity forever. just like so many if not all the people who suffered
and died in thos brutel times. If I believe that righteousness is
Christianity and the Bible is Gods word. Then as a believer do i
need a religion or a label to tell me that truth morality and law even
love, come from God?

But no not only that, there are also people like you that can
totally disregard all of it. How anyone can choose to ignore, or beyond
that ridicule and hate him 2000 yrs later? A truth even if
this short rant was the full measure of it?

Well I see that as a miracle in it's own right. So even by your hate
my faith is fueled.

That gives you something to do for a bit.
Hope it's legible few edits.

Dear Neo96, you say:
"Whether by design or accident of evolution sentient life was created to figure it all out.”

originally posted by: neo96 Neo96 posted on Apr, 30 2017 @ 09:05 AM

[…]

Whether by design or accident of evolution sentient life was created to figure it all out.

[…]

Do you notice dear Neo96, that you leave out two things not explicitly mentioned which should be, because I am very keen to know who or what they are:

1. You say, Whether by design or accident of evolution sentient life was created to figure it all out.
Who or what created sentient life?

2. You say, Whether by design or accident of evolution sentient life was created to figure it all out.
Who or what drew a design or suffered an accident?

originally posted by: Pachomius
Yrreg posted on Apr, 30 2017 @ 08:46 AM
This is an invitation to discuss the possibility of having in concept in our mind, and then going to the objective reality of existence outside our mind, to search for an entity corresponding to the concept in our mind, or evidence to its existence though not direct access to it as with our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and touch, and of course with our conscious attention.

Here is the concept in our mind, God [in concept in our mind] as the creator of everything with a beginning.

So, we go out into the universe and search for God, i.e. an entity that is the creator i.e. cause of everything with a beginning to its existence.

For examples of things with a beginning to their existence: babies, roses, the sun and the moon, stars and the galaxies they belong in, sub-atomic particles, and the universe itself.

All these things have a beginning to their existence, so they are evidence to the existence of an entity in concept in our mind as the creator or cause of everything in the realm of objective existence which have a beginning to their existence.

Everything in existence but having a beginning to their existence, they need a being to bring them to their beginning in existence, because they could not have brought themselves to existence, as prior to their existence they were not around.

What do the folks here say about this idea from yours truly, namely, from the concept of God in our mind, we pass to the world of objective existence outside our mind, to search for at least evidence to an entity corresponding to the concept in our mind, i.e. of God [in concept in our mind] as the creator of everything with a beginning to its existence.

a reply to: mOjOm

Even more than that did you know infinity is contained in zero? Yes this entire universe is actually existing in a pocket inside of nonexistence.

originally posted by: Pachomius
This is an invitation to discuss the possibility of having in concept in our mind, and then going to the objective reality of existence outside our mind, to search for an entity corresponding to the concept in our mind, or evidence to its existence though not direct access to it as with our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and touch, and of course with our conscious attention.

Here is the concept in our mind, God [in concept in our mind] as the creator of everything with a beginning.

Isnt that same description according to Christianism, Islamism, and Judaism? Our mind cannot comprehend the concept of God....yet.( If God as being and creator even exist )

So, we go out into the universe and search for God, i.e. an entity that is the creator i.e. cause of everything with a beginning to its existence.

For examples of things with a beginning to their existence: babies, roses, the sun and the moon, stars and the galaxies they belong in, sub-atomic particles, and the universe itself.

All these things have a beginning to their existence, so they are evidence to the existence of an entity in concept in our mind as the creator or cause of everything in the realm of objective existence which have a beginning to their existence.

Everything in existence but having a beginning to their existence, they need a being to bring them to their beginning in existence, because they could not have brought themselves to existence, as prior to their existence they were not around.

This is not the first time I read that. No new information for me.

What do the folks here say about this idea from yours truly, namely, from the concept of God in our mind, we pass to the world of objective existence outside our mind, to search for at least evidence to an entity corresponding to the concept in our mind, i.e. of God [in concept in our mind] as the creator of everything with a beginning to its existence.

I have big problem accepting God the creator of everything as described by religion. God is both a logical contradiction and a Paradox.