Occult versus Esoteric - The Correct Meanings

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
I can help you out with that.

Download this: www.escholar.manchester.ac.


That should do it.

The funniest and ironic aspect about the “The Book of Rolls”, is the story about Paul affiliating with Pagans being frowned upon; when the NT is filled with tons of pagan elements…

Anyway thanks for that link…


My theory is many of these texts are edited and added too throughout the passage of time, which is probably why the Ethiopic version paints Paul in a good light by stating ”he was the eye of all books”…the Syrian text is just a version, that was on it’s way to eventually being edited…Luckily for us, we can see what it really “once” said…

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
Funny you mentioned E. of Barnabas.

I just downloaded a new translation that, besides claiming spurious all anti-Judahite remarks about observance to festivals and Torah and Sabbath keeping, maintain the, at least to that MS., the mention of atonement like you said. I would agree with you it is not original as it was an odious concept to accept the sacrifice of a human as an all time replacement for Yom Kippur. I think they would rather have kept the concept of Baptism as intended for the remission of sin, and be content with that. Plus Spirit and fire, puts you in a Spiritual state of not needing to be atoned for, that seems to me what Jesus(pbuh) meant, and John the Baptist.

For the whole epistle to not mention any aspects found in the NT except that of sin atonement, is a serious red flag…IMO


- JC

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
You asked about pantheism and Islam and are they compatible.

Let me explain it thus:

God is without substance, or not made of any material or substance, matter, because all matter degrades, is not eternal, is created and requires a Creator, God. Matter is an originated phenomena, and has an origin. God is eternal and transcends all, is independent of all, all is dependent on Him. He is without body.

Matter cannot be created or destroyed…it only changes forms…which essentially means the stuff that makes up matter is eternal…

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
Everything that exists is posterior to God, He is the only One who is eternal and everything came from Him but is seperate from Him.

Your Spirit is connected to God, and is a part God, and I’ts Enternal!!!…IMO

It’s how the whole born again process happens within a person…because of there divine connection to source…

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
Pantheism is the belief that all is God and pretty much nothing exists but God in the most extreme examples. At least as I understand it. I do not know the academic definition and usually there is disagreement, but a pan theon is a collective of gods, pan theism must be a belief that god is the collective of existence or the worship of a pantheon itself, which is polytheism so I would guess the former.

Panentheism is slightly different from Pantheism, in that God is seen as ultimately existing in a higher sense, as well as permeating all things…

The parts of God existing within creation, or not the Father or the Infinite Totality of God, which is above all…This is why Jesus said he didn’t know the hour, because he was speaking from the sons perspective, and not the Father’s who knows all…

Panentheism is reflected in Hermeticism…where God is seen as “All in All”…And Panentheism also forms the Gnostic description of God…

From the Gospel of Truth below…

It did not, however, cause destruction because it was eaten, but to those who ate it, it gave (cause) to become glad in the discovery, and he discovered them in himself, and they discovered him in themselves.

As for the incomprehensible, inconceivable one, the Father, the perfect one, the one who made the totality, within him is the totality, and of him the totality has need.

In Panentheism you wouldn’t pray to a tree or plant etc... because you would believe God exists in a higher sense…which fits in with the throne metaphor, found within those Quran verses, that you mentioned in a earlier post. Quran also states “…Nor is there to Him any equivalent”…which is also true of a Panentheistic belief…

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
Neither of which are compatible with a religion that de-deified the Prophet and Messiah who had been deified by the Romans, won't even accept the notion of a literal begotten son of God.

They deified Jesus because they didn’t understand what Jesus was really teaching. Muslims were right to reject those teachings.

Bart Ehrman has pretty much shown that the early Christian Church Fathers didn’t understand most of the Gnostics beliefs. Jesus understood the Father son relationship and the Spirit to Soul connection that we all have. Unfortunately (or maybe deliberately) those teachings were distorted and Jesus ended up getting deified….

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
So as important as the Unity of God and His independent existence is to Islam, His being the "Cause"(Al Waqi'ah 58:73) of all that is, and His being the only Eternal Cause that has no origin, everything that originates or has an origin is from Him and also NOT Him.

Again that aligns with a Panentheistic belief…

Originally posted by Disturbinatti
Sufis allegorize a lot. It's possible that they express some pantheistic sounding ideas.

sūrat l-māidah 5:32
For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.

This verse above could be said to have pantheistic and Panentheistic view. It also contains a Sufi Mystic concept, in that it expresses the Unity/Oneness, within all people…


- JC

a reply to: Sahabi

I wanted to relay a humorous video I stumbled upon researching a sect of Shia who worship the so called Hidden Imam/12th Imam like Christians do Christ and how the Sunnah has chillingly accurate prophecies of the dajjal that relate to Istafhan, Iran, 70,000 Persians in blue shawls (complete with photographs of people wearing said shawls and other eye opening evidence about this sub sect of Shia started by a Judahite convert in Persia which btw has a Jewish population that enjoys total protection and the Israel/Iran hostility is a total sham it seems. They even believe that the "Mahdi"(there version, which is closer in description in Ahadith to the Dajjal) will govern according to the Talmud.

I have a way to go before confirming this but to my anecdote:

Deedat is a master scholar.

He has debates inviting Pastors of Christianity to answer his questions about the New Testament, not a smart move as he knows it far better and in more languages including Koine Greek, than they.

He gave one ten minutes to produce a quote of Jesus(pbuh) saying, "I am God" or "Worship me" and obviously he was unable to do so and not too happy about it after previously been recorded saying that the Bible "Plainly has Jesus saying he is God."

A Muslim youth familiar with Mark's verse about drinking poison and surviving that and snake bites quoted it asking if the man had enough faith to drink some "poison" he had brought.

Not astute enough to even consider he was being set up, that Deedat wouldn't allow actual poison to have a chance of being injested, which would not have been good for his career to say nothing of possible criminal charges of negligent homicide, although I don't know where it was...

The pastor took to haranguing the youth calling him, under the influence of hellfire and brimstone level fury, a devil, and proceeded to insult the whole religion of Islam.

At the end it was revealed that the majority consensus, almost in total, of Bible scholars have deemed that passage an interpolation not in the most reliable and ancient MSS.

Then he talks about how Christians are supposed to speak tongues via the Holy Spirit, which most Christians think is a gibberish, not understanding it's a common idiom for languages to the common day, even the EU used it as an official slogan until Christians complained about Babel imagery, "Many tongues, one voice."

Do they not know the Bible? Rhetorical question of course. The T. of Babel and it's confusion of tongues is one of the most famous stories in the Bible today and the Penacostal Church has no clue, they intermingled some news stories of deaths by Pentacostal snake handlers.

He started speaking in, I think Swahili or some obscure language and asked if the pastor spoke any language besides English. He did not.

"With my God given computer I did this." stated Deedat.

I started to feel bad for these poor saps, and for there many followers. Indeed they honestly believe that Islam is an intellectually inferior religion so I don't feel bad anymore, Deedat may be the epitome of a scholar but he is no anomaly.

I honestly believe that when a Muslim or non Christian, even a person of the "Left Hand Path" or an atheist, reads the Bible they come away comprehending it better (probably because they actually read it) than a Christian who is told falshefoods from day 1 about it.

Naturally.

As for esoteric interpretation, few books can match the Zohar for its ability to interpret the Torah using later Tanach books and the revealed interpretations attributed Simeon ben Yohai in the Sefer ha Zohar.

A book I have been reading for the past couple days finishing Vaera, Chayei Sarah and Toldot, 5,6 and 7 out of about 50 books in roughly 15 volumes.

Stumbled upon something esoteric and revealing.

Who ever thought, old and blind but certainly not stupid Isaac would have been fooled by some pasted on animal hair and some stew?

It is revealed in Toldot that Esau, who killed Nimrod in most Rabbinical literature including Sefer ha Yashar, and according to the Zohar took the "Garments of Nimrod" that made him so powerful (also in the same source (s)), though I don't recall if Esau takes it, it seems to dissapear with Nimrod), the "Garments of Adam" stolen by Cush and ending up with Nimrod the Mighty hunter.

So Jacob takes wears it when he goes to beguile Isaac who is clearly not fooled as he recognized the voice and the scent of the garment, but deemed more worthy even though Isaac favored Esau, Jacob was blessed by Isaac and the "Garment of Adam" passed to him. It says (Toldot 132-134)

Also Toldot 2

"I created repentance... before the world."

Chayei Sarah

158."The Soul above is greater than the light of the throne."

Reminds me of my earlier quote from Mohammed (saws) about the angels and the mind being more glorious than His Throne.

Because the "Soul above" in the Zohar refers to the souls of the righteous above, but also to the part of our soul that dwells above, a higher soul and a lower soul, represented below as the Supernal Holiness in Ishmael and above by Isaac the same.

Another interesting thing is it's stated Keturah is a repentant Hagar renamed, I guess she lapsed into idolatry but repented and was forgiven.

It is interesting also to recall the Midrash I mentioned earlier, Abraham goes to visit Ishmael and his wife refuses him hospitality without knowing who he was, still inexcusable so Abraham says tell him an old man says you have a broken tent peg and Ishmael gets the interpretation and divorces his wife.

A second time Abraham comes and Ishmaels 's new wife is hospitable and Abraham says to tell him this peg is ok.

Next Abraham dies and Isaac and Ishmael meet at the funeral with no hostility and end life on good terms, never really being on bad terms.

As a Rabbi spoke on another video I watched Ishmael had plenty of opportunities to harm Isaac being 14 years his senior, never did.

Only because Ishmael was typically jealous of Isaac at 14 he was cast away.

According to the Zohar by the "Evil eye" of Sarah.

Which isn't the magic concept of killing a person by looking at them, that's a myth.

In Judaism it is symbolic of or related to the evil inclination, the evil eye refers to the eye itself being guilty of evil, which is a strange admission from a book that people say is always referring to Ishmael, the Arabs, negativity but I find this is only symbolically the case and is not meant literally.

But even a gnostic book like the Zohar has its Fundamentalists who interpret it literally to serve an agenda ignoring the fact that it was written when Jews lived in peace with Muslims, it is believed Spain, long before 1492 and the ethnic/religous cleansing of Spain Soon after the Zohar became famous in Europe too.

Another thing I read recently courtesy of some Kabbalah website and though hard to confirm I did find other sources who say:

Abraham Abulafia worked out a gematrical equivalent between Moses, Jesus. Mohammed (pbut) and the phrase "the Name of God united."

a reply to: Joecroft

I was telling Sahabi Islam sounds Panentheistic according to the definition he gave, I don't know if you saw but I just learned the word then.

So I don't know much about it but it sounds compatible to me. Definitely different than pantheism. Much.

What's the etymology of the word?

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Merriam-Webster

German panentheismus, from pan- + Greek en in + German theismus theism (from Greek theos god + German -ismus -ism) — more at in, the-

Wiktionary

Borrowing from German Panentheismus, coined by Karl Christian Friedrich Krause in 1828 from Ancient Greek πᾶν ἐν θεῷ (pân en theôi, “all in god”) +‎ -ismus (“-ism”).

so.. for my personal purposes (I heed prophecy & predictions across the spectrum, not just religion sourced)

I can deduce that the Book of Daniel, which was to be 'kept sealed' would be identified as being an Occult Writing

And... in comparison, the Book of Revelation where John, the seer of the visions, was told to : ]Not Write Down What the Seven Thunders said... which then makes John among the inner circle of Special & select persons who have been given Esorteric Knowledge...

by these examples we understand that secret code or messages can be imparted to whomever God chooses, at any time...in the case of the mysterious Book of Daniel, the Secret, Occult info, will be made altogether known to all who are fortunate enough to live in the 'End Times', this knowledge bestowed on humanity including both Christians and Pagans/Heathens by the Holy Spirit & not by human reason or deduction

the Esorteric elect will always remain in that select group, the Angel within the vision, the 7 Thunders "Itself", & the Creator are all assumed to be that elect, select, group ,
~I suggest, the 7 Thunders words were censored, because Too Much Info, and the Woes were so bad that even 'God' would be thought of as being evil incarnate ~~~ or would give away the time line of days of wrath remaining to be prosecuted on humanity


just some considerations I thought to share, be they sound reasoning or schizo stuff

a reply to: St Udio
John said to calculate the number of the beast required "Wisdom" it is the number of a man...666."

Wisdom is in this case Gematria and 666=Nero.

Oddly it points to Solomon and his 666 talents of gold tribute, the hexagram also is a symbol for 666 but at the time associated with Chiun(Saturn) who is also El in Phoenician mythology.

So wisdom indeed. Chochmah/Sophia, the Spirit. Is it Nero? The Pharisees?

It's not the so called antichrist, not a real thing, not mentioned once in Revelation or applied to anyone not human, only applied to people against Christ(pbuh).

As people await this book to play out few know it already did. 2,000 or so years ago. When Nero, the beast, lived.

Even in Greek and Hebrew Nero is 666, Latin 616 which explains the variant fragments found.

New Jerusalem is what is the only thing left to occur, the heavenly Jerusalem shaped like a cube with 12 gates...etc.

The fact it is divided into 22 chapters is no accident, one for each letter.

It's like a more cryptic Sefer Yezira but about the end not the beginning of the world, if you read it that way.

It's not literal in that mode of reading it though as it's a bit far fetched, tbh, and it's meaning is historical revelations and oracles about the future, different from prophecy.

That's my opinion.

a reply to: Sahabi

Thanks kind sir!

I am so lazy. I could have easily looked it up but probably never would have, so thanks again.

It just hit me Sahabi.

Well it was a day or two ago but I am just getting to telling you.

Josephs coat, the long sleeved(DSS) or multi-colored(everything else) coat given him by Ya'akov was the same garment.

It gave him power in a foreign land as even though he was seperated from it he still was able to become the second most powerful person in the known world in Egypt.

And led to his family coming to Egypt, and...Moses. Who grew wise in Egypt.

a reply to: St Udio

It's funny you say that.

Daniel is a very influential book in Kabbalistic circles even though it is not considered one of the prophetic books, a weird reason is behind it that I don't quite buy, but the Ancient of Days is described in a full short book of about 5 chapters called Safra Dzienouta in detail.

Some say it's really describing the Ark of the Covenant but I have only read a little so far, I like to go in order and it's later in the series but I did read some, very cryptic.

Daniel is also the probable inspiration (after Enoch) for most Apocalyptic literature that is from the period after, definitely for Revelation of John.

It's funny that both Cronos and Atik Yomin/Ancient of Days are time related, like Zurvan/Boundless Time, and that Daniel is written during the Antiochus Epiphanies era, is the first mention of A.o.D. besides maybe 1 Enoch, written around the same time they say, probably earlier, but after the Persian era which divides the world into 4cycles as well.

Seraphim appear for the first time showing Greek influence (Serapis the Serpent god of Hellenistic Egypt that combines Osiris and Apis), meaning blazing(with wisdom) serpents and the Ophanim (Ophiucus?).

Before that I think it was Cherubim only, although I can't remember if Ezekiel mentions the Ophanim, I think he might when he mentions the Chariot wheels.

But Daniel is a unique book, the only Apocalypse in the Tanakh.

a reply to: Sahabi

That picture is interesting. It means:

Moses on the 'throne' as the Pha Ra Oh (alternate history of disobeying God). The Gold wings on the 'caduceus' means the Babylonian Priesthood runs the Earth. Not Bronze for the 'caduceus' means not authorized by Yaweh. (It's not the bronze serpent staff). The bulldog under the 'royal scepter' means subduing the Emerald Isles (Great Britain / United Kingdom). The 'crane' means it could eat even during the plagues (out of the lethal algae water 'Nile turned to 'blood'').

The Emerald was for the tribe of Gad (not Judah) on the Ephod of the High(est) Priest. Here it means Dagan (Gad backwards).

The shoes are those of an Acolyte nearly 'servant' in meaning. The Dragon is Bel.

The meaning is 'we will conquer heaven one day'.

The Kabbalah was mused during Hadassah, Queen('s) day. It was the Babylonian Priesthood coveting the Covenant.