Your Social Issue Challenge

Golddiggers gone high tech .
No surprise it was bound to happen .

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I did read the article but my answers don't change, at least not in a significant way. Live and let live is my main philosophy in these matters.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
I did read the article but my answers don't change, at least not in a significant way. Live and let live is my main philosophy in these matters.

While acknowledging that the industry in the article is not directly comparable with the pornographic and prostitution industries in terms of relative social acceptance, would you have a problem with this industry becoming as socially accepted as those other industries? Let's say to a point where you would not mind your own adult daughter or adult son being EITHER the perpetrator or the victim? Please elaborate why or why not.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

My biggest hangup with this is that I am sure most of her clients likely set up special accounts/cards for her use so they can get their jollies without actually getting ruined.

But if I were in her shoes, I could never be too comfortable knowing there are going to be those she really is ruining because they just can't handle it and go too far. I'm not sure I could take and enjoy all that money and stuff knowing that somewhere, there is likely someone who is destitute because I did what I did to them, even IF they did it to themselves.

Can't really blame a business for things people are willing to buy.

I'd sell a polished turd if people would buy it.

Sex is human nature might as well exploit if you can.

Answer to your main question before the numbered ones. No I do not feel it is wrong.

On a side note. There's a site called FUBAR. if you ever heard or seen it. This site sells little pictures for money. Little tiny bit maps of blinking pictures. One of of these bit maps is called a pony. They sell for 600$!!! Yes I kid you not. 600 #ing dollars. The strange thing is people are actually buying it. A small pixel image of a pony...

originally posted by: Dark Ghost


While acknowledging that the industry in the article is not directly comparable with the pornographic and prostitution industries in terms of relative social acceptance, would you have a problem with this industry becoming as socially accepted as those other industries?

I think they are also not comparable in terms of human exploitation and psychological damage to both parties, but to answer your question - is hard to give a definite verdict. I don't believe that there are enough people with so much money for this to become an industry, but if there are, well is their money. How is this any different from an online casino? Don't get me wrong, I"m not for this kind of things, but I'm not against it either. And if against prostitution I would take an active stance at any time, what two mature people agree to do online it doesn't trigger my righteousness button.

Let's say to a point where you would not mind your own adult daughter or adult son being EITHER the perpetrator or the victim? Please elaborate why or why not.

First, I see no real victim here; it was my impression that those people are actively searching for this kind of service. I also was under the impression that the woman took years to build herself a reputation in this, just like you build a career, and she is advertising it. So real no victims here, just dumb buyers.

Now, if my sons would find pleasure in watching an online bimbo shopping with their money... nah, they are smarter than this lol. But let's say if they would, sure, I would try very hard to convince them otherwise. I would mind, of course, just like I would mind them wasting their money on casinos. Like I said, I see it as a personal choice and a trait of character and it would worry me deeply to see my sons having such an issue. Yet I would worry much more if they would take drugs for example, or drink too much. Or love to steal from people. Is a matter of proportions.

Same with a daughter, although I only have two sons. I would hurt me to see her having so little self respect and also making a living from exploiting other people weaknesses but if this is really her choice and not a psychological issue what can a mother do?

a reply to: ConscienceZombie

Yeah, but the intent of what she does is to give her clients the experience of being financially ruined as part of their kink.

While I am not saying this should be stopped, I am saying that if I were in her shoes, I would never be comfortable. Logically, you would think most of them have safeguards set up to prevent her from really ruining them. It's all about the fetish and fantasy, right? But you would have to know that there are some who will go too far and actually end up really ruined and she has made her money off of that.

It would be like specializing in autoerotic asphyxiation. Sure, most people employ safeguards to make sure no one actually gets strangled, but they don't always work. See David Carridin.

a reply to: Dark Ghost
Take out the STDNK out of the equation and what you have there my son is called MARRIAGE.

This is a case of people being a victim to what they choose to be a victim of. It's the same as these women getting on FB telling guys how much they "love" them while getting them to wire money to them every week or so. When the well runs "dry" they disappear.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
I think they are also not comparable in terms of human exploitation and psychological damage to both parties, but to answer your question - is hard to give a definite verdict. I don't believe that there are enough people with so much money for this to become an industry, but if there are, well is their money. How is this any different from an online casino? Don't get me wrong, I"m not for this kind of things, but I'm not against it either. And if against prostitution I would take an active stance at any time, what two mature people agree to do online it doesn't trigger my righteousness button.

Why aren't they comparable? Weren't you talking about how your answers didn't "really" change? "Human exploitation and psychological damage" to grown adults that have not been forced into the industry? Aren't the men in the article linked also experiencing exploitation and psychological damage? Or doesn't it count because they are rich...or is it because they are men and should be able to handle it?

First, I see no real victim here; it was my impression that those people are actively searching for this kind of service. I also was under the impression that the woman took years to build herself a reputation in this, just like you build a career, and she is advertising it. So real no victims here, just dumb buyers.

Sure, NOBODY is being exploited and NOBODY is having their emotions toyed with to any degree at all. How silly was it of me to even make the comparison, hey?

Now, if my sons would find pleasure in watching an online bimbo shopping with their money... nah, they are smarter than this lol. But let's say if they would, sure, I would try very hard to convince them otherwise. I would mind, of course, just like I would mind them wasting their money on casinos. Like I said, I see it as a personal choice and a trait of character and it would worry me deeply to see my sons having such an issue. Yet I would worry much more if they would take drugs for example, or drink too much. Or love to steal from people. Is a matter of proportions.

So interesting. You use the term "bimbo" for the woman in a way to dehumanise her, but if I wee to say the women in pornography are just some "sluts" looking to make easy money, would you be cool with that? I don't think so...

Same with a daughter, although I only have two sons. I would hurt me to see her having so little self respect and also making a living from exploiting other people weaknesses but if this is really her choice and not a psychological issue what can a mother do?

And if your daughter revealed she were a porn star? Would you feel the same?

originally posted by: crayzeed
Take out the STDNK out of the equation and what you have there my son is called MARRIAGE.

LOL. Nice one!

Maybe Men Going Their Own way is not SUCH a bad idea after all?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Why aren't they comparable? Weren't you talking about how your answers didn't "really" change? "Human exploitation and psychological damage" to grown adults that have not been forced into the industry? Aren't the men in the article linked also experiencing exploitation and psychological damage? Or doesn't it count because they are rich...or is it because they are men and should be able to handle it?

None of the above answer is correct. They are not comparable because they are online. The men in question here have to actively open a browser, enter a search term that fits their twisted sexual fantasy and browse through a LOT of results where they want to spend their money; then they have to willingly enter credit card details and so on. This why I can hardly see them as victims. They are not seduced, drugged or in any form "forced" to spend their money. They are actively asking to be exploited.

So interesting. You use the term "bimbo" for the woman in a way to dehumanise her, but if I wee to say the women in pornography are just some "sluts" looking to make easy money, would you be cool with that? I don't think so...

Again, you are wrong. I was talking about "some online bimbo", not that specific woman in particular although she is advertising her picture and she (intentionally I suppose) looks like one. Why you have to make everything so personal?
And the woman in article, as opposed to real prostitutes is not physically handled by several men's by night for a few bucks, with all the accompanying things included. She is just doing a voyeristic show in front of the camera, alone in the comfort of her own home, and is taking a lot of money for that. A victim does not build a career over several years from her victimhood; she obviously enjoys what she does. But remember that's just my opinion and I only gave it because you asked for it.

And if your daughter revealed she were a porn star? Would you feel the same?

Do you have any idea how far you traveled from people who do things online to receive money up to what I would do if my daughter would be a porn star? Do you realize how personal and difficult that second instance would be, as opposed to an opinion about something happening out there in the virtual jungle of internet ? How can you even correlate between the two? Would you really expect me, or anyone else for that matter to feel the same thing?

But.
Like I explained above I think there is a huge difference between girls who undress in front of an online camera for money and real, physical prostitution. Even so, as long as a woman is doing either of them from their own choice, like the woman in the article I see it as their own business. I feel like you expected a stronger reaction, but I'm sorry to tell you that I see so many things happening around me so much worse than someone making money out of stupidity of somebody else. I'll say it again, is a matter of proportions.

And to be fair I would love to hear what YOUR answers are to the questions you asked in the OP. And also to hear the reasons behind all this thread; I really hope is not because you were one of the scammed men in the article....(joking!)

originally posted by: WhiteHat
None of the above answer is correct. They are not comparable because they are online. The men in question here have to actively open a browser, enter a search term that fits their twisted sexual fantasy and browse through a LOT of results where they want to spend their money; then they have to willingly enter credit card details and so on. This why I can hardly see them as victims. They are not seduced, drugged or in any form "forced" to spend their money. They are actively asking to be exploited.

If you cannot be exploited due to online activity, why did you mention online casinos before?

What makes you assume that an adult female porn star was "seduced, drugged or forced" to participate in THEIR endeavour to make money? If there is a widespread problem of women being mistreated in the industry, why do ANY women continue to take part? Is there realistically nothing else they can do? Are they obligated to make lots of money by knowing there is a market for watching other people having sex?

Again, you are wrong. I was talking about "some online bimbo", not that specific woman in particular although she is advertising her picture and she (intentionally I suppose) looks like one. Why you have to make everything so personal?
And the woman in article, as opposed to real prostitutes is not physically handled by several men's by night for a few bucks, with all the accompanying things included. She is just doing a voyeristic show in front of the camera, alone in the comfort of her own home, and is taking a lot of money for that. A victim does not build a career over several years from her victimhood; she obviously enjoys what she does. But remember that's just my opinion and I only gave it because you asked for it.

When have I taken anything personally? What makes you think I am personally outraged by this specific story (or for that matter that perhaps I might be a former disgruntled client of hers looking for revenge)? My comments before were directed at porn stars. You are referring to my original comment which asked if you had a problem with industries such as pornography or prostitution.

Do you have any idea how far you traveled from people who do things online to receive money up to what I would do if my daughter would be a porn star? Do you realize how personal and difficult that second instance would be, as opposed to an opinion about something happening out there in the virtual jungle of internet ? How can you even correlate between the two? Would you really expect me, or anyone else for that matter to feel the same thing?

Again, because it happens on the internet you think it's different when clearly before you admitted you were unhappy with your sons losing money on online casinos? OK, how about not pornography, but a single woman willing to do ANYTHING requested by the guy that does not involve harming herself or others, where she is in full control and her only motivation is that the more "weird" the requests get, the more money she charges THROUGH her webcam stream to him? How about then?

But.
Like I explained above I think there is a huge difference between girls who undress in front of an online camera for money and real, physical prostitution. Even so, as long as a woman is doing either of them from their own choice, like the woman in the article I see it as their own business. I feel like you expected a stronger reaction, but I'm sorry to tell you that I see so many things happening around me so much worse than someone making money out of stupidity of somebody else. I'll say it again, is a matter of proportions.

Look at my previous reply above this one. I didn't expect a stronger reaction. I expected non-feminists to consider there was a clear double standard that cannot be denied. If you do identify as a feminist, then no I am not surprised by your reaction at all. If you do not identify or sympathise with feminism, then yes I would be surprised at your reaction alone.

And to be fair I would love to hear what YOUR answers are to the questions you asked in the OP. And also to hear the reasons behind all this thread; I really hope is not because you were one of the scammed men in the article....(joking!)

Sure, would you prefer me to PM the answers to you, or do you want me to post them in my next reply out in the open?

I am not a feminist, definitely not what is understood as feminism today. I am a woman thou, and I always truly believed and behaved as equal to a man. Not above and not bellow. I don't hate men and I don't believe they are the source of all evil. I think that a male becomes man only next to a woman, and a female becomes woman when she have a man, and we equally need each other.

As for this article my opinion is as such because it is in a very gray area. It's not prostitution but it is a sexual service offered for money; it is some form of exploitation but not so much since the victims are looking to willingly pay. The woman is selling herself but only virtually and nobody actually gets to use her body. So what is it, what are those men paying for? What are people paying for at an online casino?
The illusion. The dream, however weird that dream is. But all in all is an online transaction between two consenting adults.
Now, if the men got their expensive dream and when they woke up felt remorse and want the money back, is that making them victims? Their are only victims of their own stupidity.

how about not pornography, but a single woman willing to do ANYTHING requested by the guy that does not involve harming herself or others, where she is in full control and her only motivation is that the more "weird" the requests get, the more money she charges THROUGH her webcam stream to him? How about then?

I don't understand what are you asking about. If she is to blame that the men will pay a fortune to watch her? She is exploiting a market already there; he gets his sexual dream for money. Two sharks found each other, every one of them has something the other wants, all safe and private. What else is to say?

If you want to answer me please do, in private or in public whatever is best for you, i'm fine with both.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
I don't understand what are you asking about. If she is to blame that the men will pay a fortune to watch her? She is exploiting a market already there; he gets his sexual dream for money. Two sharks found each other, every one of them has something the other wants, all safe and private. What else is to say?

Are men (and a very small number of women too) who are willing to pay for porn to blame for the men and women who choose to participate in the making of pornographic clips? YES or NO? (I hate doing that YES or NO thing but I am now left with no choice if I want to understand your position).

If you want to answer me please do, in private or in public whatever is best for you, i'm fine with both.

I don't mind answering it here as long as nobody else has some objection that I "made a thread to answer my own questions" and can then point to my reply and say "there is my proof!" But that's THEIR problem, so I will do it right now if you like.

Just making it clear: I, as the author of this thread am answering the questions from my opening post at member WhiteHat's request, I am not doing it for any other reason than to show I am sincere and want to honour her request.

I cannot prove that I thought about these exact questions before I saw the article myself, but I can give you my word that the reason I did create the thread was to see if I was alone in seeing a clear double standard in regards to these types of topics, and this article served a convenient purpose to go about finding out what I wanted to know. Therefore, I can only realistically answer the questions once...the difference is I was aware of my biases before I made the thread, can anyone else who disagrees with me say the same?

1) Do you think the person is right or wrong for doing what they are doing?

I do not believe in moral absolutes. However, within the context of modern Western society, I believe promoting this type of behaviour as normal (even though this particular example is not widespread, yet) has the potential to lead to lots of destructive consequences for BOTH the perpetrator and their victims.

2) Are their acts morally justifiable in any way, even if it is to make a living?

While I don't believe in absolute morals, to the degree in which we do judge morality within Western countries, the example in the opening post cannot be morally justifiable in my view IF the person making the judgement thinks other industries such as the pornography industry are ok but this is not, just because the genders have been changed.

3) Is the fact that their clients are stupid or willingly stupid because they can be the persons fault for continuing to do so?

Keeping in mind what I have emphasised in both replies above, the clients' stupidity is not justification for the perpetrator to do way she is doing, so no you cannot blame the clients alone.

4) Is the person fairly or unfairly promoting any stereotypes about the group they might belong to?

I believe if you read the story and had not thought about these kinds of topics in great detail before, then you would NOT consider the fact she is promoting a stereotype about women (women will go through greater lengths to achieve more money, even by having to provide greater sexual gratification for men as a result; whereas men will go through greater lengths to achieve greater sexual gratification, even by paying greater sums of money to women as a result, which is the equivalent stereotype for men.)

So yes, the stereotypes of both genders do come into question when reading articles like this. The key difference being that in the general reaction to articles by readers who just read it for the first time, they are far more likely to continue unconsciously supporting the male stereotype without even questioning why they do this so easily, whereas they are far less likely to consciously question the need to determine whether the woman's actions might be harmful to the image of women as a whole, because even asking such a question borders on sexism ? After all, "how can this individual woman's actions at all represent every other women in existence?" (The same question is not considered into the stereotype about men implied even once.)

5) Should we blame the number of rich stupid or willingly stupid people for allowing this person to continue making so much money?

They are partially responsible (but probably viewed by readers as MORE partially responsible than they actually are due to the fact they are RICH), but it does take two to tango in this scenario. There cannot be a perpetrator if there is no victim, and there cannot be a victim if there is no perpetrator. Otherwise, why refer to them as perpetrator or victim (as I did for a reason)? If you don't see a reason to do so in this particular case, that is your right, but it is being intellectually dishonest pretending that somebody is not being exploited, especially when she has mentioned former clients threatening her for what she did.

6) Are people like this person who "cannot" find another way to make a living obligated to commit to this industry now that there is an established market for doing so?

No, they are not. This article demonstrates that there is a clearly a socially-accepted double standard when it comes to questioning how low men or women will go if the act involves getting lots of money for little effort.

7) If I were to reveal the gender of the person and the gender of the person's clients, would any of your answers to the above questions change in any way or form AT THIS STAGE?

For me, NO. I have thought about these issues so I would not be surprised by the gender roles. I would assume the same about the motives of both the perpetrator and victims.

However, to somebody who has not, I would imagine they would be very tempted to be very dishonest answering this question AFTER having read the article compared to how they answered it before reading it.

8) If I were to reveal the gender of the person and the gender of the person's clients, do you think their actions as individuals should be associated with their gender to properly assess whether the situation is overall right or wrong, AT THIS STAGE?

No, if equal rights and fair treatment for both genders is the goal, then there is NO WAY I should change my views as they already stood before reading the article. Hence, when pressed by others to elaborate on why I asked those questions, I began asking about their views in regard to socially-accepted attitudes towards industries like pornography and to a lesser extent as I now realise, prostitution.

a reply to: Dark Ghost
Thank you for answering so detailed, I understand now where your questions came from.

Are men (and a very small number of women too) who are willing to pay for porn to blame for the men and women who choose to participate in the making of pornographic clips? YES or NO? (I hate doing that YES or NO thing but I am now left with no choice if I want to understand your position).

I see now what you meant by blame. So my answers is yes, absolutely yes; those who pay for this are to blame just as much as those who offer this service. I am not into judging other people's morals and what they do with their life, but there are things we do that influence our life only, and there are things who influence other people's life and perception as well.
And yes, the article itself it only promotes these things and helps to normalize the publicity of something which would otherwise have remained private. But rating is king, and nothing sells better than sex or topics somehow related to sex.

Yet, as you emphasize in your next post I do not like to think in stereotypes for neither gender, I do think of both as simply "people". My answers are the same even if in the article the buyers would have been women and the provider a man. Yet people expect those stereotypes, they are used to them, fight each other because of them and most try very hard to conform to them; this is why some things (although we all know they are wrong) become socially acceptable. And that is exactly what makes those stereotypes become reality.
That brings in to my mind that feminists of today, because we mentioned feminism earlier, are only trying to change one set of gender stereotype with the other, which in my opinion is really... stupid.

Anyway I believe that for the most part our views on this are similar, and it was a very interesting discussion. If you have more questions fire away, and if not thank you for an interesting exchange of opinions. Is equally satisfying to understand other people's views in these matters as is sharing your own.

a reply to: WhiteHat

Thank you for the nice comments. It has been interesting and I have enjoyed getting to know you a little better than I did when we first discussed the topic. Even my most staunch opponents (or people who probably since a few hours back are praying for my death as a result of another thread I have been participating in today) have something to teach me. That is why I go through such strong efforts to give everyone the benefit of the doubt per thread. Even these same people who I mentioned in brackets before, if we were able to discuss a different topic and it could be informative and enlightening, I would take part myself, but I cannot speak on their behalf.

I do apologise if some of my earlier replies in this thread were a bit blunt, harsh or rude. I am not a blunt, harsh or rude person by nature, but on topics involving gender issues or sexism I have been forced to become this way because it's always the same type of opposition with the same types of argument that simply refuses to open their mind and revisit deeply ingrained views they feel are 100% irrefutable facts.

Anyway, I am rambling now. Thank you for your comments and I look forward to interacting with you in the future