Should Islam undergo a Reformation?

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: doobydoll
Muslims have been killing other muslims since time began and will continue to do so as long as they have breath in their bodies. They aren't going to stop fighting amongst each other just because the west goes wading in, and they also won't stop if we don't go wading in.

Just leave them to sort their differences between themselves. They'll either learn to live together or wipe each other out.

Killing people has nothing to do with being Muslim. If religion did not exist at all there will still be just as many acts of unnecessary evil, wars, and murder. The problem is people living in poverty and human nature. I have this theory that there would be peace in the ME if Arabs has more access to good Jewish dentists.

Shia, Sunni, Wahhabi. Muslims kill other muslims just because they're other muslims. These people even despise each other.

DP

originally posted by: dfnj2015
This is NOT a fact but an opinion.

I think the problem with Muslims is not the religion but too many people being radicalized because they are living in poverty. And they are living in poverty as a direct result of US bombings. The US dropped 28,000 bombs on five predominately Muslim countries in 2016. What is the purpose of the policy?

You remind me of somebody who reads a novel that is filled with a strong plot, interesting characters, fantastic imagery, amazing plot twists and a comprehensive vocabulary. It also contains two spelling errors and the ending is anti-climactic. When asked about the book by a friend who is interested in reading it, you tell them "Meh, pretty good but it does have some spelling errors and the ending is boring."

In other words, you have focused on an error that in the context of the whole thread is so minor compared to everything else that it seems you were actively trying to find something wrong as soon as you realised the thread itself might be making some sense. This made you so uncomfortable that you began to start reading from the beginning with a far more critical eye and began focusing on anything that could be used as evidence that the overall argument of the thread had problems.

If this was a widespread problem, then you would have a point. But I think either you might be genuine and are lazy, or more likely you are what I described above because your only complaint seems to be found by reading the conclusion which is at the end of a very long thread. If you felt the conclusion itself was wrong, why not address the actual calculation itself or point out how reaching that calculation was very unlikely to be accurate? It really does seem like your argument is a "you don't understand the difference between an opinion and a fact" when if you read through the whole thread properly, you would realise that I clearly do know the difference and never intentionally tried to imply the reader should forget it either only while reading this particular thread.

* * * * *

The "Most Muslim radicals are the product of their environment caused mainly by Western policies" argument is not only misleading, but it is actually a rather weak argument.

It is misleading because it assumes that the vast majority of Islamic extremists would cease to exist if the West stopped interfering in Muslim countries. This is not true. There would certainly be a large reduction of Islamic extremists attacking the West, but the problems in the Muslim world would not disappear and Muslims would still be murdering Muslims due to disagreements in beliefs or whether other Muslim countries are allied with Western countries. This has happened in the past, it is happening now and will happen in the future even if the West does change its foreign policies.

What makes your argument weak is that many of the most significant terrorist attacks have involved people who were well educated and who most were either of average wealth or very wealthy. Material possessions, the accumulation of knowledge paled in comparison to their core religious beliefs. In addition, look at the number of Western non-Muslims that have converted to Islam and flown half-way across the world to fight against the armies of their own native countries. It is rare, but is is not extremely rare. And it is probably most indicative of how dangerous an unhealthy passionate belief in Islam can be for anybody in the world. What kind of belief system can cause such an astronomical shift in values, priorities and loyalties in such a short period of time for this type of thing to not happen once or twice, but 20-50 times?

As I said in another thread, if I were able to ensure the immediate stop of bombing of any Muslim country from right this moment on and promised not to do so again unless it was to ensure the survival of the West (which would have to be supported at the very least by the UN), and in return I asked for Islamic radicals to stop attacking Western countries, I would make that deal right now, no questions asked.

Unfortunately, even if both sides held to their word, Muslims would still be killing other Muslims for stupid reasons, women in Muslim countries would still be subjugated, homosexuals would still be prosecuted and killed, Sharia would still function and make life suck for most of the population, and worst of all, this could never change. It would be a perpetual cycle and would never be challenged by those being oppressed.

So what do we do? How do we fix this situation?

Yes it should but here is how it should be done. All muslim scholars need to come together and revise the quran by removing all of the aborgated verses. This removes a tool alot of imams use to trick their followers.

That will be all they really need to do to lessen the violence.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

The fundamentalist aspects that surround the religion and the other crazy's that wish to promote the notion of Jihad need to be eradicated before any form of reformation regarding the Muslim faith would ever be allowed to take hold.

That's a whole lot easier said than done.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I'm currently dating an Indian Muslim girl and that's a very big no no in Islam.

A non Muslim man cannot marry a Muslim woman because I control her and would push my non believing ways on her and push her to hell.

But a Muslim man can date a non Muslim woman because he owns her and get her to believe in Muhammad

I love this girl and will eventually have to end it just because of some backwards religious conversion tactic. I would never force my girl to convert to anything and I'm perfectly fine that she practices Islam. Really such a sad reality and all because it's stated in the Koran. God brings people together but that just my opinion.

But yes Islam has needed a reformation and will never happen.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

No. Just extinction.

a reply to: JDmOKI

Shes already a apostate by dating you. so sh ewill be shunned and or killed if they find out. Sorry her islam days are over.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I have this theory that there would be peace in the ME if Arabs has more access to good Jewish dentists.

Rex just called, you have a interview next week.

Buck

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Dealing with them on a day to day basis myself in Dearborn? They have no intention of changing anything nor adopting any American or West-World values. The clothes and ideals, religion as well...isnt going anywhere. Nor will it change.

They believe as it is, ISLAM is the only way...and they will always remain true to that. No matter how long...or what they learn or discover to the contrary.

Still...I know quite a few "modernized" and traditional believers of Islam...and they are all cool to me. Many, quite kind....but I understand that no matter what...Ill always be an infidel...no matter how they treat me face to face...smiling n all.

Their Islam is perfect...to them. Thats fine.....I just do my job each day and get into no conversations (if they speak English in my ER Vehicle)...about God or Islam. I wouldnt win nor get through to them about potential Islamic reformation....

MS

a reply to: Dark Ghost
Your on a hiding to nothing there. to Muslims(even moderates) the quran is untouchable, sacred, they will not change one word never mind reform it.
As for how many Muslims in the world today is a general misnomer. Take a country, say Britain, at the moment statistics say Muslims are producing approx. 7 to 8 children per woman (and a man can have up to 5 wives). Yet british women are only producing approx.less than 1 child. So at that rate how long will it take before the indigent population gets outnumbered.
Now the crucial year you should think about is 18 years old when they can vote.
Work out the math on that and you'll find after the initial 18 years it will take less than 10 years for Muslims to have a vast voting majority in Britain.
If people think there will be a slow take-over just think what happened to the vast majority of moderate, modern Muslims in Iran when the Ayatollah took over? That was one night. One day a moderate progressive country the next.. well look for yourselves.

Oh I forgot to add, Iran was a vastly moderate country but it only takes a few extremists to change that. A few extremists in positions of power is all it takes to rule the moderates and they can do absolutely nothing about it.
So really the worlds numbers of Muslims is irrelevant it all depends on where they are concentrated.

originally posted by: yuppa
Yes it should but here is how it should be done. All muslim scholars need to come together and revise the quran by removing all of the aborgated verses. This removes a tool alot of imams use to trick their followers.

That will be all they really need to do to lessen the violence.

I think that would just create yet another branch of islam.