Never trust someone who has found the truth?

a reply to: TarzanBeta

You know what in your life is truth and that which is false do you not? The things you say whether truth as you know it or a lie in fabrication, the things you do or have done in reality and not make believe... yeah? I don't and I couldn't that... it would take trust and convincing. Some just live with all of the untruth within themselves also lie and convince themselves that the untruth is truth. Guilt from oneself to oneself; the mind in turn can become ones own enemy.

How can I trust truth from you I am not you so of course you are correct; if another has no cause to deceive, then hey better odds than a coin toss but even without trust, choosing to believe everything truth you'll be right half the time in that guess. Easier to live and gain wisdom just trusting people, than being paranoid and suspicious... even if they are trying to scam you? Wisdom learned from it, so you still win... thinking you lost or getting angry? Then yeah you did lose; and then both are at fault instead of just the one.

But knowing truth only you know truth to you, I cant say hey truth to you that is only relative... some things are universal truths; these get called law or Dharma impermanence being one... no one need convincing sit down experience it first hand as deep as it goes... it it is always in awareness wearing it as ones own face. Those are the things to sit down and see for oneself as truth a commonality we all share... the rest is just passing time.

a reply to: Gryphon66

So, you don't have any evidence that any atheist has "claimed to know the secrets of the Universe."

No, they do.

ETA: By claiming a thing isn't true one has to assert that is isn't true everywhere, otherwise its a false claim. Again, how could you know that something isn't true any everywhere? You can't even see one tiny fraction of one spectrum with your eyeballs.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Just to be clear, you have spoken with God?

Is that the God of Judaeo-Christianity?

And are you saying that you've spoken with God in the way that you're speaking with us?

"Just to be clear, you're saying you put your feet on that huge rock in the sky that seems totally unreachable to me? Or is it some other rock called the moon that I don't know about?"

What, would you have me repeat myself?

I ask a straightforward question, you respond in metaphor. That tells me what I need to know.

I don't care if you repeat yourself or not. You're claiming "special knowledge."

It's not a new trick.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

What secrets do atheists profess to know? Atheism is not a position of knowledge, it is a position of not accepting a claim by others.

Precisely. So how could they know it isn't true, (whatever the claim is)?

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I can make this clear with a simple question. Do you believe that dragons and unicorns exist? If you do not, can you explain why you do not believe this?

Have you ever seen dinosaur bones? There were Dragon stories well before the evidence of their existence popped up in the dirt and rock.

With all the animals that have horns and yet their cousins do not, it's not a far stretch to believe there were a line of horses with a horn at some point. I haven't seen it, but it doesn't bother me if they ever were around.

But if you and Gryphon go to my link above - or, hell, have you read A Brief History of Time like I have? The most prominent arrogant in the world, and possibly the most believed, says what you imply has never been said.

Uhhmm... dinosaur bones have been around for a long time. It is not unthinkable that the legends of dragons came from early finds of dinosaur bones. This does not mean that magical dragons are real. Likewise if there were a horse with a horn, it would not be the same as a magical unicorn. What makes these things impossible is the magical nature of the legendary creatures. Pretty much the same with gods. Take the magic away from the stories and you just have ordinary people with extraordinary stories told about them.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Real Unicorn Remains Found - CNN

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
a reply to: Woodcarver

You proved my point. You asked for an example and then provided it through yourself.

If I have an experience with God, whether mental or even physical, that does not mean you will be able to know it or believe it. You judge based on your subjective truth that which is objective to me. A subjective experience does not make only a subjective truth.

Example: the lunar astronaut can tell you what it is like to walk on the moon. They experience subjectively an objective truth: the moon can be reached and walked. Most people haven't done this. In your view, if you're not a lunar astronaut, then no one has ever been.

you actually messed up your explanation. If an astronaut tells you what it is like to walk on the moon, he is giving you an opinion. If an astronaut says he has walked on the moon, he is telling you an objective truth.

Now you're playing word games.

If a lunar astronaut tells you what it's like to walk on the moon, then he implies the objective truth that he has walked on the moon, otherwise he's a liar.

But by your words, let me offer this objective truth to you without the subjective description: I have spoken with God.

Who will you believe if you have neither walked the moon nor talked with God?

It will come down to your own subjective truth, won't it?

these are not word games this is a logic puzzle. If an astronaut tells you what it is like to walk on the moon he can only tell you what it is like for him because he does not know what it is like for someone else. If he tells you he has walked on the moon this is an objective truth that can be proven.

Your claim that you speak with God every day cannot be proven because it only happens in your head, therefore making it a subjective event.if a person says they talk to Elvis every day in their head, you would not give them any credence. Not because it sounds crazy, but because it is unprovable.

I didn't say I talk with God everyday. You're still playing word games.

If you have a dream and you remember the details of that dream and then you tell someone, one could say that you had a subjective experience. But that the experience was had at all is an objective truth.

Therefore, whether you believe that one or not will depend on your subjective view of that individual instead, therefore your judgment will be based on your subjective truth.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I don't care if you repeat yourself or not. You're claiming "special knowledge."

It's not a new trick.

Pot meet kettle, thats exactly what you are doing. Well to be true you aren't actually claiming anything, just that others claims can't be true true, because you haven't seen outside your thick skull. Safe perspective, isn't it...

(puts fingers in ears and goes "la la la")

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Just to be clear, you have spoken with God?

Is that the God of Judaeo-Christianity?

And are you saying that you've spoken with God in the way that you're speaking with us?

"Just to be clear, you're saying you put your feet on that huge rock in the sky that seems totally unreachable to me? Or is it some other rock called the moon that I don't know about?"

What, would you have me repeat myself?

I ask a straightforward question, you respond in metaphor. That tells me what I need to know.

I don't care if you repeat yourself or not. You're claiming "special knowledge."

It's not a new trick.

Interesting. So you still derived you needed to know for yourself through the metaphor while at the same time implying that anything less than a metaphor isn't an answer. So you come to your own truth through implication, but won't accept the implication of the metaphor itself. That's a contradictory mindset.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I don't believe in a god like religion does. Way to also jump to conclusions. I specifically said spirit realm.

So you believe in the spirit realm? Then just replace God with the spirit realm and it's the same argument.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Gryphon66

So, you don't have any evidence that any atheist has "claimed to know the secrets of the Universe."

No, they do.

ETA: By claiming a thing isn't true one has to assert that is isn't true everywhere, otherwise its a false claim. Again, how could you know that something isn't true any everywhere? You can't even see one tiny fraction of one spectrum with your eyeballs.

I guess I'll do it again. Atheism is not the position that God does not exist. It is a position of disbelief in the claim that Gods do exist.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

What secrets do atheists profess to know? Atheism is not a position of knowledge, it is a position of not accepting a claim by others.

Precisely. So how could they know it isn't true, (whatever the claim is)?

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I can make this clear with a simple question. Do you believe that dragons and unicorns exist? If you do not, can you explain why you do not believe this?

Have you ever seen dinosaur bones? There were Dragon stories well before the evidence of their existence popped up in the dirt and rock.

With all the animals that have horns and yet their cousins do not, it's not a far stretch to believe there were a line of horses with a horn at some point. I haven't seen it, but it doesn't bother me if they ever were around.

But if you and Gryphon go to my link above - or, hell, have you read A Brief History of Time like I have? The most prominent arrogant in the world, and possibly the most believed, says what you imply has never been said.

Uhhmm... dinosaur bones have been around for a long time. It is not unthinkable that the legends of dragons came from early finds of dinosaur bones. This does not mean that magical dragons are real. Likewise if there were a horse with a horn, it would not be the same as a magical unicorn. What makes these things impossible is the magical nature of the legendary creatures. Pretty much the same with gods. Take the magic away from the stories and you just have ordinary people with extraordinary stories told about them.

Who said anything about magical dragons? Keep moving the goal posts and you'll never have to acknowledge what's being said.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Just to be clear, you have spoken with God?

Is that the God of Judaeo-Christianity?

And are you saying that you've spoken with God in the way that you're speaking with us?

"Just to be clear, you're saying you put your feet on that huge rock in the sky that seems totally unreachable to me? Or is it some other rock called the moon that I don't know about?"

What, would you have me repeat myself?

I ask a straightforward question, you respond in metaphor. That tells me what I need to know.

I don't care if you repeat yourself or not. You're claiming "special knowledge."

It's not a new trick.

Interesting. So you still derived you needed to know for yourself through the metaphor while at the same time implying that anything less than a metaphor isn't an answer. So you come to your own truth through implication, but won't accept the implication of the metaphor itself. That's a contradictory mindset.

It's a contradictory mindset because it's your formulation of what you think about "me" not me.

I'm good to note that you're claiming special knowledge and move on. Let's not diffract the conversation with personal BS.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I don't believe in a god like religion does. Way to also jump to conclusions. I specifically said spirit realm.

So you believe in the spirit realm? Then just replace God with the spirit realm and it's the same argument.

You just hung Gryphon on his argument with your statement here. Hence, my disposition on Hawking's arrogance is strengthened.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Gryphon66

I don't care if you repeat yourself or not. You're claiming "special knowledge."

It's not a new trick.

Pot meet kettle, thats exactly what you are doing. Well to be true you aren't actually claiming anything, just that others claims can't be true true, because you haven't seen outside your thick skull. Safe perspective, isn't it...

(puts fingers in ears and goes "la la la")

I haven't even said what you're saying I did. Hanging scarecrows early in the day, aren't you?

Here's the basic fact: you claimed that atheists say something that you can't prove atheists say.

You were wrong; let's accept that and move on. No need to be personal.

a reply to: Woodcarver

So you believe in the spirit realm? Then just replace God with the spirit realm and it's the same argument.

You just dismissed a whole other realm of possibility again, how could you know something does or doesn't exist without ever having witnessed it?

Thats like rewinding old tapes of paradigms that said the earth was the center of the Universe, because they never saw thru a telescope, or there are no such thing as microbes, germs or atoms because they never saw thru a microscope.

Or that the Universe is finite or bounded, because we never saw infinitely far or infinitely small...

So lets just forget about the words infinity or eternity because according to you they don't exist.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Just to be clear, you have spoken with God?

Is that the God of Judaeo-Christianity?

And are you saying that you've spoken with God in the way that you're speaking with us?

"Just to be clear, you're saying you put your feet on that huge rock in the sky that seems totally unreachable to me? Or is it some other rock called the moon that I don't know about?"

What, would you have me repeat myself?

I ask a straightforward question, you respond in metaphor. That tells me what I need to know.

I don't care if you repeat yourself or not. You're claiming "special knowledge."

It's not a new trick.

Interesting. So you still derived you needed to know for yourself through the metaphor while at the same time implying that anything less than a metaphor isn't an answer. So you come to your own truth through implication, but won't accept the implication of the metaphor itself. That's a contradictory mindset.

It's a contradictory mindset because it's your formulation of what you think about "me" not me.

I'm good to note that you're claiming special knowledge and move on. Let's not diffract the conversation with personal BS.

I don't think anything of you. It's clear as day what you were communicating. Or else, why say what you said? Nothing personal has been said.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

What secrets do atheists profess to know? Atheism is not a position of knowledge, it is a position of not accepting a claim by others.

Precisely. So how could they know it isn't true, (whatever the claim is)?

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I can make this clear with a simple question. Do you believe that dragons and unicorns exist? If you do not, can you explain why you do not believe this?

Have you ever seen dinosaur bones? There were Dragon stories well before the evidence of their existence popped up in the dirt and rock.

With all the animals that have horns and yet their cousins do not, it's not a far stretch to believe there were a line of horses with a horn at some point. I haven't seen it, but it doesn't bother me if they ever were around.

But if you and Gryphon go to my link above - or, hell, have you read A Brief History of Time like I have? The most prominent arrogant in the world, and possibly the most believed, says what you imply has never been said.

Uhhmm... dinosaur bones have been around for a long time. It is not unthinkable that the legends of dragons came from early finds of dinosaur bones. This does not mean that magical dragons are real. Likewise if there were a horse with a horn, it would not be the same as a magical unicorn. What makes these things impossible is the magical nature of the legendary creatures. Pretty much the same with gods. Take the magic away from the stories and you just have ordinary people with extraordinary stories told about them.

Who said anything about magical dragons? Keep moving the goal posts and you'll never have to acknowledge what's being said.

Dragons and unicorns have always been magical creatures per the legends. That is why people use them as counter arguments to the existence of Gods.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

I guess I'll say it one more time. Atheist do not make a claim that God does not exist. They just do not believe your claims that a God does exist.

I don't believe in a god like religion does. Way to also jump to conclusions. I specifically said spirit realm.

So you believe in the spirit realm? Then just replace God with the spirit realm and it's the same argument.

You just hung Gryphon on his argument with your statement here. Hence, my disposition on Hawking's arrogance is strengthened.

So, to be clear, your claim is that something Woodcarver didn't say, about an argument I didn't make, proves your position on what Hawking didn't say?

I can see why you have to invoke "special knowledge" to make these things make sense ....

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Woodcarver

So you believe in the spirit realm? Then just replace God with the spirit realm and it's the same argument.

You just dismissed a whole other realm of possibility again, how could you know something does or doesn't exist without ever having witnessed it?

Thats like rewinding old tapes of paradigms that said the earth was the center of the Universe, because they never saw thru a telescope, or there are no such thing as microbes, germs or atoms because they never saw thru a microscope.

Or that the Universe is finite or bounded, because we never saw infinitely far or infinitely small...

So lets just forget about the words infinity or eternity because according to you they don't exist.

My argument is not that these things don't exist. My argument is that anyone who says they do exist needs to provide some significant evidence to back up their claims. Something other than you are experiencing this in your head. If you were truly dedicated to proving your claims, you would submit yourself to Scientific scrutiny.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

If you don't think anything of me, you wouldn't be talking.

Let's be clear about what YOU are communicating:

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

Interesting. So you still derived you needed to know for yourself through the metaphor while at the same time implying that anything less than a metaphor isn't an answer. So you come to your own truth through implication, but won't accept the implication of the metaphor itself. That's a contradictory mindset.

Your referents are "you" "yourself" "you" "your" etc. Are they referring to anyone but me?

Of course you're talking about me personally and not an argument, a claim or anything else.

Don't be obtuse.