Are Solar Panels Sustainable On A Large Scale?

originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: TheScale

if panels take almost as much energy to produce as they give out over their lifetime

but that´s not true.

plz show me the data cause id love to have it. i know for a fact that many system are energy negative to this day cause my good friend is in the PV industry and i talk to him about it alot. many are energy positive aswell but using the data that ive said is from 2007-2008 the best we could do was 5% energy positive for mass production. i tried your link but its broken and id love to have the hard numbers on newer tech so i could calc out the space needed. the whole point of this is to find out more info so we can see just how energy positive they are and what it would take to have them used on a massive scale to get us off fossil fuels, thus they need to produce the energy needed to sustain that ecosystem. maybe one day we will get another form of clean energy that does away with fossil fuels and then they dont need to be so energy positive. as it stands right now the majority of panels are all produced by burning fossil fuels since in the US thats about 90% of our energy production. so yes i want them to be self sufficient so we dont have to keep on going the fossil fuel route. im not trying to single out other future possibilities with PV panels its just id rather stick to one argument at a time. like many i think that they will be great to one day power everyones home so we can cut down on the infrastructure we have with our grid. that alone would be a nice cost savings. but id rather avoid having to produce tens of billions of panels that will initially be created with fossil fuels if we might have a tech just down the road that could reduce that to tens of millions of panels. about the efficiency part, it all depends on the process. if it requires exotic techniques and materials to produce a highly efficient panel then it "may" have a huge energy cost associated with said techniques. for example aluminum is a very expensive metal to produce from its oxide even today so we recycle as much aluminum as we can to keep the costs down unlike steel and other things that are cheaper per pound to produce then potatoes. btw if like u say when taking the energy costs of transportation, installation, the mining of the resources etc costs more energy then a panel will ever produce then u just proved my point. u cant just ignore those energy costs.

a reply to: TheScale
have you read the datasheet I provided since you ask for proof?
have you looked at the link? No?
you just throw random numbers around.

u just proved my point. u cant just ignore those energy costs.

I´m talking about it constantly because you refuse to read my posts. I´m hardly ignoring it.

a reply to: verschickter

Curious as to how panels will hold up in a hail storm?

Is microgeneration of wind power going on much over there?

originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: TheScale
have you read the datasheet I provided since you ask for proof?
have you looked at the link? No?
you just throw random numbers around.

u just proved my point. u cant just ignore those energy costs.

I´m talking about it constantly because you refuse to read my posts. I´m hardly ignoring it.

i tried the link and its broken. mentioned it in the previous post. so once its working ill check it out.

ive been digging through these sites which were recommended by my friend, but its not the easiest thing to find, even he has tried and its very hard to find any good numbers on it. they are usually geared towards a specific thing so the numbers vary widely. so ill go through that website but i dont know what u were specifically pointing to in the link cause it takes me to a dead end page.
IHS
Greentech

btw not sure if i responded to u or another on the payback for a home owner but where i live to get a 7.5kw system installed is around $30,000. the payback just isnt there in my region especially if u get a loan for it then the interest really kills any savings. only way it would have paid off for me was if the price of a kwh increased by about 2x. which it most likely will but at the rate its going now i still wouldnt see a payback until maybe the 30 year mark and then its iffy cause who knows if the panels and everything associated with it would really last that long problem free. most likely wouldnt considering the main board in the inverter died in the first 6 months cause the fan failed inside it. so everywhere is abit different. if u can install one yourself then u can make out like a bandit though. wish i had gone that route cause after seeing the install i know i could have just done it myself sans a roofer to cut the tiles.

a reply to: TheScale
just type in "pv panel energy myths" and you´ll find many calculations but be aware, there are many "pro pv" sites that are as bad as the "anti pv" fraction when it comes to disinformation.

In my region, you go to the bank, get a credit and you´re set up because they know PV pays back. Even now with prices at 50c/Wp module and payback as low as 6-7€c/kWh It was more profitable 6 years and more ago, that´s right. Without the subsidizing, the pay you get from the energy companies would be way less and not profitable, you better use that energy for yourself, if you pay more then you get for the energy. In my case, I get about double the price for the energy I give to the grid.

So until my contract runs out, it would be idiotic financally to use my own energy. But in reality, the generated energy goes through my "upload" meter and right back into my "download" meter, to my appliances.

Here are some definitions, it´s important to seperate and know these terms:

"energy"
energy is the amount of work a physical system is capable of performing. Energy can´t be destroyed or consumed, it´s transfered from one medium and state to another.

You always pay for the energy. That means, everything you buy, regardless if it´s an apple, a wooden shelf or a pv system. The main cost is already the energy needed for the resources and amount of work to get them, included in the price. The difference is, there are mixed energy sources and countries with different energy-costs. Be aware, I use the term "energy" and the term "power".

"power"
..is not the same as energy. Power is energy transfer per unit of time.

term: "energy resource payback"
That´s why the energy payback (resource wise) is already payed with the price of the panel. For one module to harvest the energy needed in production (including resources, until the point it leaves the factory) it takes around 3 years, most times even less.

term: "panel cost payback"
For your panel to payback financially it depends on the price you get for your energy of course and if there are setbacks like panels failures.

term: "panel power (300Wp)"
Wp = Watt peak, that means it´s the absolute maximum amount of power harvested at any given time. So on a very sunny day, with clear air, in the cold, with optimum angle and orientation, clean surface, no dirt, this panel will output 300W per hour of sunshine.

term: "panel efficiency"
is currently around 18-19% on a 1000W/m² base at a sunny day. I know it was just a crude example from you but 100% is impossible even in space. There can´t be 90% efficient panels inside the atmosphere. Although, the 1000W/m² do not include scattered light. Some types of materials are better with difuse and scattered/reflected light. Those are the laminated panels (use cadmium tellerite) and often seen in a brownish color on your calculator. They work very well lower light conditions.

a reply to: verschickter
Photovoltaics are produced with low cost Asian labor and coal fired electricity and installed on the homes of the wealthy in the West, where the wealthy buy the politicians (the poor can’t afford to) who force the utilities to purchase the electricity from the photovoltaic arrays at high rates and pass the costs on to taxpayers and ratepayers, who are the victims of this scheme.

In Germany, no harm for high energy consumption industry, because they get prices subsidized at international level to stay competitive. They don't have to pay the rates that are double what they are in the US and Canada, the people are stuck paying the inflated prices from this green scheme.

The poor with low efficiency devices are paying the costs, but wealthy home-owners with PV and investors in wind power get subsidized from them and large industrial users have their rates subsidized.

Wealth distribution from the poor to the rich.

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: verschickter

Curious as to how panels will hold up in a hail storm?

Is microgeneration of wind power going on much over there?

We've had two fairly good hail storms here since mine have been installed as well as some huge wind storms. no problem.

a reply to: D8Tee
Not all panels are produced in the asian region but many come from china, that´s right. The quality ranges from really bad to excellent. But there are also many factories in europe, germany especially. Italy too. Although some of the raw materials in the supply chain uninviteable come from cheap and dangerous labor. I´m fully aware of that, I also wrote it already, thank you.

Hail storms can be a problem but they are tested and built for that, also ice and snow pushing on them. In the datasheet I provided (german factory), there is a number in kilo pascal that determines the breaking point.