Is Mesopotamia an island

ok, like my previous post about Athens I am throwing this open to the assembled members because I am interested in what you think
I know that Mesopotamia is an island, it translates from Greek into English as "the land between the rivers" and the upper area is known in Arabic as Al Jazira, which translates directly to "the island"
I am writing a book about Mesopotamia and I would like to include in it some humorous quotes from you lot
So you can either go research on google, or if you prefer, just post anything that comes to mind, I am not so much interested in the truth here as I am interested in human thought

Points awarded for bizarre answers and humour...

thankyou

I always enjoy your threads and would like to put my name down for a copy of your book when published. Autographed maybe. One thing you can say about Mesopotamia without fear of contradiction is that it one of the most contested and fought over pieces of land on the face of the earth. I will continue to think about the subject and if I come up with anything I consider worthy of your attention I will post it.

a reply to: Marduk

There was an article saying that there used to a civilization in what is now the Persian Gulf but it is now underwater.

www.livescience.com...

originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: Marduk

There was an article saying that there used to a civilization in what is now the Persian Gulf but it is now underwater.

www.livescience.com...

I've read that before and I think it has a lot of merit, but when he gets on to :-

And there's a hint of mythology here, too, Rose pointed out. "Nearly every civilization living in southern Mesopotamia has told some form of the flood myth. While the names might change, the content and structure are consistent from 2,500 B.C. to the Genesis account to the Qur'anic version," Rose said.

At that point I have to disagree, because he is talking utter bushtit and showing his ignorance of literature. The flood stories can indeed be linked together in a long line, the line dries up in 2100BCE. All of the early stories are Akkadian, there isn't a single original Sumerian flood story in existence. The reason for this is well known, that the Sumerian language was good for recording transactions and values, but not so good for writing fiction, whereas Akkadian is a much richer language and much more adaptable for story telling, which is why it became the Lingua Franca of the Ancient Near East until an even better language became available, that being Aramaic. So the Akkadians loved writing fiction and their favourite subject was "the Sumerians" who they regarded as their ancestors. But the problem with that is, that the Akkadian scribes had very vivid imaginations, so the stories are greatly exaggerated out of reality and the further you get after 2100BCE the more exaggerated the stories becomes.


There is one story which dates to 2100BCE called "the lament of Eridu", which discusses the destruction of the city of Eridu, the oldest city in the world (allegedly) and in that story the flood storm lasts 24 hours
Every time after that each retelling exaggerates the details
Lament for Eridu 24 hour flood
Atrahasis flood lasts 7 days
Gilgamesh flood lasts 21 days
Noah flood lasts 40 days
So by the length of time of the flood, you can see which order they were written in

and in each retelling the boat gets bigger, it doesn't even exist in the oldest story. in Atrahasis its built from a reed hut and is little more than a raft. The area of the flood gets bigger as well, starting with a city and ending with the entire world. But that's the bible for you. Clearly these texts were written to aggrandise the city where the story originated. They do this by adding a narrator, often referred to as a flood hero, who by not appearing in the original text, suddenly appears in all those that follow.

So if he's claiming that there are older flood stories than that then I would say firstly, lets see them, and secondly, what was flooded, a bathtub ?
This is the usual problem, when a non specialist with a rough idea starts making statements which he believes is fact when in reality, he probably hasn't even read the stories himself, notable by the lack of any details in his claim. Compare that to my post to you, I have read the texts, I am very familiar with them and as a result I can state the facts. His idea that human migration out of Africa is very likely, but his knowledge of Akkadian texts seems to be non existent

a reply to: CulturalResilience

I will put you down for one, or maybe, if you send me your email address privately, I could send you some sample chapters.

.

Speaking topologically, either Mesopotamia was an island, or Mesopotamia was the mainland and the rest of the world was a big island.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

Well I heard that "no man is an island", but what if you're sitting in the bath and aren't touching the sides ?

I think you need to look up the definition of "island" again... and also, look up a few maps.

originally posted by: Marduk
a reply to: Harte

Well I heard that "no man is an island", but what if you're sitting in the bath and aren't touching the sides ?

That depends.
Are you floating?
If so, you're Mu. Or, "Moo," as Churchward called it.

Either you're Moo, or your a product of Moo, specifically from the posterior end.

Harte

a reply to: starwarsisreal

Surely there would still be some remnants of the civilization such as Ziggurat temples under water unless all the limestone dissolved?

a reply to: Marduk
If the same source gave rise to the Tigris and the Euphrates, then Mesopotamia would be a literal island.
As things stand, it's only a virtual island, because the mountainous exit between the two sources is nearly inaccessible.
It's an island for people who want to stay down at sea-level.

a reply to: Marduk

I'd never thought about it, but yeah, I guess it is, kinda.

Though the rivers would have to have the same source...otherwise.

Meh, it's an island.

Is this book going to be a book, or an e-book?

originally posted by: Marduk
a reply to: Harte

Well I heard that "no man is an island", but what if you're sitting in the bath and aren't touching the sides ?

Then you must not be American.

originally posted by: Byrd
I think you need to look up the definition of "island" again... and also, look up a few maps.

You think I haven't done that already ?

Upper Mesopotamia is the name used for the uplands and great outwash plain of northwestern Iraq, northeastern Syria and southeastern Turkey, in the northern Middle East. This region (together with northeastern Iraq) is approximately correspondent with what was Assyria from the 25th century BC through to the mid-7th century AD. After the Arab Islamic conquest of the mid-7th century AD the region has been known by the traditional Arabic name of al-Jazira The Euphrates and Tigris rivers transform Mesopotamia into almost an island, as they are joined together at the Shatt al-Arab in the Basra Governorate of Iraq, and their sources in eastern Turkey are in close proximity.

So Upper Mesopotamia is so island like, its called "the island", By the people who live there and if the Upper reaches form an island, then surely the lower part is as well, because its bordered by water on all sides effectively making it a huge island. Mesopotamia - land between the rivers...
Remember, I'm not looking for the facts here, I'm just interested in what people think
I am interested in what you think, not a critique

originally posted by: Cauliflower
a reply to: starwarsisreal

Surely there would still be some remnants of the civilization such as Ziggurat temples under water unless all the limestone dissolved?

They are made of mud brick, not limestone. You think mud brick would last the ravages of under sea existence

I recall from reading various texts on Mesopotamia that the early Sumerians in that region "raised up" the land, that over time that description became part of the creation texts, but in it's earliest context was simply describing how Sumerians engaged in dredging and the building of dykes to establish a more permanent settlement in a region prone to cyclical flooding. It was more marsh than dry land too, and until recently the March Arabs (Ma'adans) lived much like their ancient Sumerian and Akkadian counterparts. Most of their earth works began with creating an earthen and reed mat, upon which they would eventually build their reed huts and animal corrals.

Reed mats as the foundation for cizilivation:




Ancient bas-relief of a typical reed hut:




It's modern counterpart as built by the March Arabs:





As you can see, living in an alluvial flood plain is not like living on dry land. That is what the early Sumerian settlers faced, they were living more on the water than on dirt. They flocked to the region because it's flood made possible cultivating rice crops and grains, but it also made permanent settlement impossible, always having to retreat to their ancestral homelands to resume hunting and sheep herding. The Proto-Akkadians and other Semitic settlers like the Amurru were not so fortunate and were reduced to eking out an existence as best they could, as condescendingly noted by Sumerians "eating grasses on all four like animals."

So in many ways early Mesopotamians were living on an island, or many islands, until they coordinated their efforts and "raised up" the land.

Note all our early records of the region are Sumerian, as they invented literacy, even if those records are lost to time and only exist now in a later writing system such a Babylonian or Akkadian. Some Sumerian cuneiform astronomy texts were still being faithfully copied by Babylonians 2,000 years later. This is another important point - Sumer as a written and spoken language died out in Sumer before the "great flood," at least in the southern half of the Sumer-Akkadian empire. The southern cities common language was Akkadian, with Sumer living on strictly within the palaces and temples, much the way Latin live on in Medieval Europe long after the collapse of Rome. When the flood of 2450 BC (going by memory here) wiped put most of those Southern cities, they lost the ability to read and write in Sumerian cuneiform. It wasn't until long after rebuilding efforts were underway - and by borrowing northern Sumerian scribe - that they regained the ability to read the "language from before the flood."

Anyhow good luck with the book.

Apparently this site has gotten so anal we can no longer link images...? Try to imagine I posted super awesome pictures that instantly convey the sense of "island" in ancient Mesopotamia. or try here: imgur.com...

sounds familiar
link

Originally a village of reed huts in the marshes, Nippur was especially prone to devastation by flooding or fire. For some reason, settlement persisted at the same spot, and gradually the site rose above the marshes - partly from the accumulation of debris, and partly through the efforts of the inhabitants. As the inhabitants began to develop in civilization, they substituted, at least in the case of their shrine, mud-brick buildings instead of reed huts.

pictures