The inherit flaw of the NHS and will America fall down the same trap?

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
So figured i would give my take on this as I work within the NHS.

I still see the massive problems caused by PFI at our local hospital. That debacle is currently raping our local trust for ridiculous amount of money, and will continue to do so for many years to come.

It's cheaper for the UK to build our own hospitals, but getting a consortium to do it then "rent" it back to us helps keeps the costs off the books and makes the government look better, safe in the knowledge that some other poor sod has to pay for it down the road.

Thanks Tony B'Liar, another great job there you jug-eared tosspot. Even the Tory Party decided it was a step too far into madness and shelved the plans, but you and Fungus the Scotsman knew better.

The biggest problem with the NHS was that it was misplanned. I know that there were inefficiencies and may be some inefficiencies however it is not as great as some think because we have so many new systems in. These systems add to the Bureaucratic burden.

What some seem to ignore is that we are an aging population and we suffer illnesses of old age. I know that here is a retired dentist in his 90s that is a serious body builder but he is an exception to the rule and in a distinct minority.

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
So figured i would give my take on this as I work within the NHS.

I still see the massive problems caused by PFI at our local hospital. That debacle is currently raping our local trust for ridiculous amount of money, and will continue to do so for many years to come.

It's cheaper for the UK to build our own hospitals, but getting a consortium to do it then "rent" it back to us helps keeps the costs off the books and makes the government look better, safe in the knowledge that some other poor sod has to pay for it down the road.

Thanks Tony B'Liar, another great job there you jug-eared tosspot. Even the Tory Party decided it was a step too far into madness and shelved the plans, but you and Fungus the Scotsman knew better.

I was an auditor and reviewed the Biggest PFI hospital in West Midlands. I could tell you some horror stories and also the nepotism...

a reply to: TheBulk


But American Science is the product of many who were never born in the US. Face Facts US Science education is rubbish at the school level. Science is really poor without maths and OVER 50% of maths - based PhDs are awarded to Non - US nationals!

The NHS is great, today with my mum who's been treated for type 4 breast cancer (the most aggressive) but has been sorted (yipee) went to see the doc about about some test results and was sat in the chair for about 5-10 mins and was out in about 5 with a prescription for some more water tablets and then a few hours later we was at the local hospital for her to have some sort of heart test and literally we didn't even get chance to sit down and she was called in and 20-30 mins later was out.

Main problem is since I don't drive was more the taxi service for the lifting and shifting shall we say.

Don't get me wrong that the NHS is perfect but both my mum and my late father paid plenty into the pot so really should be allowed to enjoy some of those benefits.

originally posted by: thekaboose

All the money being pumped into it is very poorly managed, large amount of management and red tape stop the money trickling down to improve services. The treatment and pay the staff get is disgusting for the role they pay so we have less and less UK born nurses and doctors, they either get into other aspects of the job or go private themselves to earn money, the new staff from oversea's is then treated poorly by a small % of the population which then leads to a decline in service and numbers again.

Whilst the upper management sits there on their hands laughing at all their money.

Correct as reported to me by everyone I know who works in the NHS including source no1 my wife. There is another problem in that the NHS is used as a political football. It needs to be removed from government control and managed by a publically appointed body. The National insurance contributions should go through this body to the various branches of the NHS.

Privatisation is absolutely NOT the answer. This perverse idea that public is bad and private is good is a myth. They both run equally well or equally badly depending on how they are managed, with one minor difference. A private enterprise can hide its flaws (and has done so many many many times!) whereas a public enterprise cannot. A public NHS can be made to function as a service for us the consumer.

originally posted by: Tiger5

I was an auditor and reviewed the Biggest PFI hospital in West Midlands. I could tell you some horror stories and also the nepotism...

Uni Hospital Coventry?

I'd love to hear those stories, though I'm sure you wouldn't be allowed to tell them!

I know that Queen Liz in Brum had to reopen their old hospital almost immediately because the new PFI monster was too small. The same story keeps cropping up in a number of hospitals, funnily enough - built too small, big costs involved in trying to make more room after the fact.

originally posted by: Maxatoria
The NHS is great, today with my mum who's been treated for type 4 breast cancer (the most aggressive) but has been sorted (yipee) went to see the doc about about some test results and was sat in the chair for about 5-10 mins and was out in about 5 with a prescription for some more water tablets and then a few hours later we was at the local hospital for her to have some sort of heart test and literally we didn't even get chance to sit down and she was called in and 20-30 mins later was out.

Main problem is since I don't drive was more the taxi service for the lifting and shifting shall we say.

Don't get me wrong that the NHS is perfect but both my mum and my late father paid plenty into the pot so really should be allowed to enjoy some of those benefits.

Cant be true...with all these immigrants and health tourists and all that.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

When It works it works and when it goes chesticles skyward they point very much towards the sky is my view but today was a good day and lets just say i've seen both sides.

I believe that the NHS was a necessity to reduce the risk of revolution after the war. Those same heroes did not waste their lives just to return to a crappy social health service. THE PTBs knew exactly what they were doing.

originally posted by: Tiger5
I believe that the NHS was a necessity to reduce the risk of revolution after the war. Those same heroes did not waste their lives just to return to a crappy social health service. THE PTBs knew exactly what they were doing.

That's a hell of a statement.

The more I turn it over in my mind the more sense it makes.

Apart from the fact that the labour government of the time really was a proper Labour government and I trust their motives far more than any since

originally posted by: Maxatoria
a reply to: Soloprotocol

When It works it works and when it goes chesticles skyward they point very much towards the sky is my view but today was a good day and lets just say i've seen both sides.

Yeah, people like time off work and it can create downturn in services provided. Have a wee look at the figures of public service workers time off for whatever reason. Anyone else would be sacked.

a reply to: Tiger5

That, the Welfare state and Public housing with the associated public amenity's were all to prevent a revolution, if all those lad's coming back after what they had suffered had gone back to the 1930's way of being treated as second class citizen's there would have been riot's that would make today's riot's look like namby pamby naughty kid's playing and the government knew this, still the Tory's resisted but eventually even most of there MP's consented.

The NHS as a liberal idea (old liberal party) but put into effect by a progressive post war labour party.

A little of our history at the time was that the Tory's had been great at leading the wartime coalition government but in peace time the country NEEDED Labour.

A little more history, after the war our infrastructure was shattered, our industry's both damaged and had been retooled for the war effort and we had signed a terrible deal with the US called the lend lease before they had come into the war following the pearl harbour attack which we had actually warned them of in advance after our intelligence had decoded Japanese messages indicating this attack was being planned.

After the war we were totally bankrupt, the Empire did not Crumble but as part of a deal with the US whom wanted what they considered free trade the monopoly of Empire had to be abolished so we had to disband it anyway due to this.

So at a time during which we were the furthest into debt with our industry the most shattered (until thatcher got her grubby hand's upon it and used sell off's to promote a short term feel good boom with long term deleterious consequences to our internal economy) yet on the back of this with vast numbers of soldiers coming home whom had little or no prospect's of job's in many cases, bombed out home's so no were to live and in many cases had lost there wives, family's and worse WE still founded the Welfare state, the NHS and provided public housing as an emergency and indeed this created a fantastic period of work and boom at least at a national level if not an international one though woman were still often left in dire poverty due to the lack of equality and of course that took a lot longer to catch up with single parent's only surviving through the introduction of family allowance.

Remember this was NOT a communist system, the nationalized industry's were actually paid for so the former owner's did not walk away empty handed and indeed the movement of the infrastructure into public control which had already been under government control since the war anyway was a necessary move to ensure our national security both financially and also tactically.

Meanwhile OUR money paid right up until 2006 (without the Lend Lease we probably would have collapsed during the war so despite my dark tone thanks to the American's for that though it definitely benefited them at our expense) which included vast amount's of interest was then used to pump up the economy's and rebuild the factor's and state infrastructure's of our enemy's as the American's had this cock eyed idea that making there enemy's there economic allies was a good move even if it meant biting the nose off of there already existent friend's, so in Europe the German economy was resurgent and sped past our own as OUR payment's were turned by the US to this purpose meaning in a round about way we were actually paying reparations to our enemy's whom started the war and also to Japan which created the seed of many of the economic woes of the west as this made Asia the place to invest to the detriment of our own workforces.

But Nationalization of Key Infrastructure and essential industry's was a good move, non better.

Privatization of those same key industry's was even in Thatcher's time a seriously bad move but because of the short term political memory of the British electorate the Tory's got away with this pilfering of the family silver to fund there own short lived soiree and the short term but very southern (Tory heartland) economic boost this created is still touted as a success by them today in spite of the obvious fact that it sowed the seed for the later economic woe we have suffered.

Now they want to remove the final nail in there side and are actually doing so, they are destroying the last vestiges of the welfare state and with it the NHS, make no mistake if they get back into power after this unelected PM Theresa may has run her course then that will be the outcome while the weak labour party struggle's to unite under right wing media attack and internal closet Tory Left enemy's tearing at what remains' of there fabric.

The result will be that the Scot's will if the Welfare state is removed and the NHS finally destroyed, they will break away permanently from the UK, the Welsh assembly will then follow suit and the Tory's will find themselves in charge of a much reduced country with almost no international clout at all but hey as long as they get back there servant's whom will scrimp and scrub for them lying in the mud so that they can walk all over them that is what they want right.

So is it any surprise that the Tory's really do not care about the average poor British person, oh they want there vote so will proffer a carrot on a stick which they have no intention of ever giving to the poor deceived voter - not without first taking the lion's share for themselves that is.

What you have to ask yourself is this, if the Tory's with there corrupt intention's are not removed from power at the next election then what will remain of the NHS, there is and was never any need for the Austerity in the UK and indeed Cameron simply used the European Austerity imposed by the European Troika (Really a group of ultra wealthy private financiers whom own the banking system and are stripping the European economy's for there own greedy purposes) as an excuse but of course as you would expect Mrs May is not swerving from the course he plotted by even a fraction of a degree.

originally posted by: Tiger5
I believe that the NHS was a necessity to reduce the risk of revolution after the war. Those same heroes did not waste their lives just to return to a crappy social health service. THE PTBs knew exactly what they were doing.

After the war, industry needed healthy workers, but people were either homeless or living in rat-infested slum conditions and were often sickly and unfit/dying. They couldn't afford doctors or medicines so of course their health would deteriorate.

The National Health Service ensured we had a fit healthy workforce, everyone contributed that worked. Employers had to contribute too because they benefitted from a healthy workforce. And workers need somewhere to live. Social housing began to be built so that everyone had a home that was fit for habitation and therefore contributed to maintaining good health and well-being.

The NHS and social housing ideas weren't thought up and implemented because TPTB feared the public might revolt, but because a healthy economy requires healthy workers. The war was over and many work-fit men didn't make it back. Even more came back with limbs missing and other disabilities. How do you get and maintain a fit healthy workforce? Cue the NHS and social housing.

If there was no benefit in an NHS or social housing to the rich industry owners, we would still be living in rat-infested slums and dying slowly of curable infections/diseases.

But of course these days the NHS, people's health, and social housing, has become less important since it was made easy for companies to import healthy workers - hence the massive underfunding of the NHS and selling off of social housing.

a reply to: doobydoll

It wasn't just industry but the threat of the Russians, at the start of both world wars we'd found out that there was loads of people unsuitable for military training till they'd had a very simple operation and thus those in charge felt it was worth the cost to get the population more healthy as they could reduce response times down a lot.

a reply to: AMNicks

The NHS is being crashed on purpose so that it can be privatised and profited on by pharmacorp..

Want to save the NHS. Same drugs in the UK are 200 time cheaper in India. Sort out the stupid trade laws and stop conning the hell out of everyday folk that pay for this with their taxes..

a reply to: purplemer

I take it purchasing said drugs in India and shipping them back to the UK would offset the cost at home?

Wait that may make sense so no chance.

Or any cost benefits to be had may be eaten up on import tax or duties/shipping costs.

Hang on through don't we export pharmaceutical products to India in the first place?

a reply to: andy06shake
Yep, it's a merry-go-round of products that sucks up loads of cash during the ride. By design no doubt.