The inherit flaw of the NHS and will America fall down the same trap?

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Where do you stand on the Likes or Trident replacement and the cost of war.?

what does that have to do with anything.

I was just picking out a few expenses that we could probable cut or put off in favour the nations health

When the NHS is employing hundreds of so called Diversity managers on 50 to 60 grand a year and people still can't understand why it's strapped for cash then there is a severe case of fiscal myopia that will never be cured even if we pay 90 per cent tax and swap trident for a balloon on a stick.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Nailed it.

This is why people are so utterly opposed to privatisation. There are only a small few people alive today, who lived before the NHS existed. They lived in a time where the hardest working people in the country, would bankrupt themselves trying to get treatment for ailments. They lived in a time when accessing medical care was EXTREMELY hard, nay impossible for the poorest in the land, despite the fact that these people worked, did hard labour, like mining, construction, at the brick yard, or the wood yards, at all manner of hard, physical jobs. The people that were the glue of that society, were unable to get medical assistance most of the time, because it cost more than they had in the world. Breaking a leg at work meant poverty, starvation... it was positively Dickensian.

When the NHS came into existence, things IMMEDIATELY changed for the better, because not only was the NHS giving care to all comers, regardless of their earnings, but it was giving the best standards of care available anywhere in the country. The wards were run with absolute cleanliness at the forefront, because they knew, even then, that keeping things clean was just as important to patient health outcomes, as was the precision of the surgeons, the effective diagnoses provided by doctors, and the care with which tests were carried out to establish a patients status.

Things are not like that now, for reasons as stated in your post.

If the NHS is to remain a public institution, which it MUST, then it will be necessary for the government to stop giving tax breaks to the wealthy, stop accepting corporate fraud as often and to the degree that they do, cease doing business with companies who have connections with tax evaders, avoiders, or cheats, and use that money saved on the public services that successive administrations have failed to account for.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

There is not one single case of a privatised organisation which was formerly nationalized in the UK actually delivering better after privatization, not one case.
The Train network, worse and more expensive.
Electricity, worse and more expensive.
Water, Worse and more expensive, water drainage reduced increasing flood risk's, water only purified when and as it is necessary - often after the fact of some kind of bacterial or other contamination.
Gas and oil supply's, Worse and we are a captive market so the private suppliers can pretty much charge whatever they want.
Royal Mail the latest major victim in the Tory's march to put all state owned asset's into there own private hand's.

But every time they privatise a nationalised institution someone get's very rich and that someone is usually close friend's with member's of the government so has the insider tip's ahead of the pilfering of our national asset's.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Where do you stand on the Likes or Trident replacement and the cost of war.?

what does that have to do with anything.

I was just picking out a few expenses that we could probable cut or put off in favour the nations health

Let's not play games here. You know the question im asking and why i'm asking it. A answer would be appreciated.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Solo, for once me and you are 100% in agreement.

The privatisation of the NHS will be the biggest crime committed against working people in this country in a long, long time - bigger even than Thatcher selling off the family silver back in the '80's.

It just goes to show that dumbing down and brainwashing programmes are working when ordinary people believe the bollocks MSM et al are peddling.

The NHS is not perfect....but it's a damn sight better than the alternatives I see being mentioned.
And the biggest problem with the NHS is serial underfunding by successive governments carried out in order to backdoor privatisation resulting in increased profits for pharmaceutical and other related private businesses who supply the NHS - most of whom have politicians and their relatives employed as consultants or on their boards and who donate large amounts to party coffers.
None of it is in the best interests or concerns of the British public.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
When the NHS is employing hundreds of so called Diversity managers on 50 to 60 grand a year and people still can't understand why it's strapped for cash then there is a severe case of fiscal myopia that will never be cured even if we pay 90 per cent tax and swap trident for a balloon on a stick.

That is not the problem. The UK is Spending billions on stupid stuff when it should be spending on Education and the Health service.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Where do you stand on the Likes or Trident replacement and the cost of war.?

what does that have to do with anything.

I was just picking out a few expenses that we could probable cut or put off in favour the nations health

Let's not play games here. You know the question im asking and why i'm asking it. A answer would be appreciated.

I am not playing games.

What the hell does the cost of Trident and war have to do with the privatisation of the NHS?

Nothing, if you want to discuss the Trident and the cost of war then I am sure you could write a thread on that yourself

If you want to discuss the NHS however with me then please feel free to do so

a reply to: AMNicks

Our national health service is one of the little remaining services that still makes the UK a great nation to live in.

Sure it's failing and falling on it's arse regarding specific areas and services but that's because our beloved Gooberment, both past and present, have chosen to fund such notoriously nonsensical schemes as Trident, at costs of upwards of £205 billion as apposed to using said monies to shore up and fix our national health service.

There is no trap.

Tell you what is a trap, contributing tax and monies to a nation that wishes to build nonsensical walls or demonize a specific religious orientation instead of supplying proper medical care and/or social services for it own people.

The USA system is definitely in need of improvements.

BUT if you want a snapshot of what government provided healthcare in the USA looks like look no further than the VA. That is what the future of govt provided healthcare looks like. If you think that's a good idea then maybe you deserve it.

a reply to: AMNicks

The end result to socialized medicine is that ultimately, those who pay into the system will be the ones who benefit.

In socialized medicine a cost/benefit analysis will be done based on the age and potential taxes assumed from the individual.

The other issue becomes that your health and your choices will not be your choices any longer. Society will determine your personal choices because society will be the ones that will ultimately have to pay for it.

a reply to: jjkenobi

The VA is crap because it is underfunded all to hell. If the government were under a legal obligation to provide the best quality of care available in the country, or face immediate removal from office, there would be perfection on tap, twenty four seven, regardless of the difficulties associated with providing it. The trouble is, that your government see no consequence to themselves, in ceasing to use your nations health as a political football, rather than actually acting to improve healthcare availability for veterans or regular citizens.

As long as the private sector have any say in healthcare what so ever, there will be something wrong with the system.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Then I also wonder about the bed situation within the hospital you were in, at any one time in the average hospital just now there are something like 20 patients who are fit for discharge but can't be due to lack of social services.

I'm a geriatric NHS nurse and I can confirm what you wrote, we have a bay full of medically fit patients who can't leave because they need package of care. If they are not self funded then social services have to intervene and it takes them weeks and weeks to finally let them be discharged.

Another issue I wonder about is staffing, the NHS is awful at managing staff and this goes from the very top to the very bottom. For example the government recently the government took away the nurses bursary and the result has been a 25% drop in applicants so this is now leading to massive shortages of staff.

Not just that: by 2020 nearly half of all British nurse will retire. Because of Brexit the number of European nurses have dropped 90% since June (in June 1300 registered with the NMC every month, in December it was down to 100). Overseas nurses also dropped, as they now have to earn more than £35k per year to bring their families here. You cannot run the NHS without nurses, and the Tories know that.

The whole agenda for change system is a joke. Not only that but the levels of stress staff are under is immense leading to more sickness and higher staff turnover so you might have also been sitting in A&E for hours because of a lack of staff.

Also true.

Fixing the NHS however is a huge challenge. I dont know exactly how you fix it only that privatisation is not the answer.

I work for the NHS and I love the NHS, you have to live in other countries to appreciate how amazing the NHS is. I sincerely hope the Tories won't damage it beyond repair.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Thanks for your input Othersideofthecoin!

I see your point! I completely agree that the NHS and our governments input needs a complete overhaul! How? i dont know.

But when we look at privatization (not the current model) but a form of it, where you kept the idea of free A&E treatment and care but possibly gave medical centres the additional option of "Pay for play" then it might help offset the lack of choice when it comes to treatment or appointment times?

a reply to: Agartha

"I work for the NHS and I love the NHS, you have to live in other countries to appreciate how amazing the NHS is. I sincerely hope the Tories won't damage it beyond repair."

And your work and contribution is much appreciated, well said!

a reply to: Agartha

Not just that: by 2020 nearly half of all British nurse will retire. Because of Brexit the number of European nurses have dropped 90% since June (in June 1300 registered with the NMC every month, in December it was down to 100). Overseas nurses also dropped, as they now have to earn more than £35k per year to bring their families here. You cannot run the NHS without nurses, and the Tories know that.

Over the next few years this is going to kill the NHS.

Not only is the problem going to be less international nurses and the killing of the bursary but to make matters worse the job is utter crap. Why would anyone want to study for a Nursing degree to wind up with a job that involved cleaning up other peoples crap at 3am on a Friday night and putting up with all the other stuff we have to put up for for rubbish pay. This might sound like a bit of a rant but we literally have people lives in our hands, and get paid less than the average joiner.

I think Agenda for change is a massive part of the problem with nursing, it makes the career so unattractive that compounded by taking away the bursary means that in the next few years there is going to be a massive shortage of nurses. We have advertised for posts over and over again that people just simply dont apply for and its not like these are for MFE wards or something like that, these are good jobs that a few years ago we would have seen loads of applicants for.

Easy fix. bring back the Bursary, make the NHS much more family friendly, fair pay (seriously working in critcal care and getting paid the same as the nurse ticking box's in x-ray), give more power to SCNs, stop terrorising nurses with the ever impending fear of the NMC and complaints.

meh it will never change i think.

a reply to: AMNicks

Like i say I do think that some charges can be introduced into the NHS in the form of fees for misusing the service.

I also think its totally retarded that the NHS will pay for things like gastric bands, sex changes, boob jobs and other such operations that might not be 100% necessary yet at the same time the waiting lists for hip replacements are so long that the NHS is having to pay private contractors to preform these operations. We cannot afford some of the services that are being provided yet are struggling to cope with demand.

originally posted by: andy06shake
And your work and contribution is much appreciated, well said!

Thank you! I hope our children will also be able to count on the NHS when they are older.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Easy fix. bring back the Bursary, make the NHS much more family friendly, fair pay (seriously working in critcal care and getting paid the same as the nurse ticking box's in x-ray), give more power to SCNs, stop terrorising nurses with the ever impending fear of the NMC and complaints.

meh it will never change i think.

LOL I have experienced community nursing and I agree that nurses in specific hospital wards should be paid much more, critical and MFE being two of those wards.

I would also add to your list: change the 111 system as it's privately owned and they send ambulances out for silly things just because they are covering their backs. Add GPs to A&E departments to see patients that don't need emergency care (such as those under the influence).

But elderly community care is the key, especially with an aging population.

a reply to: Agartha

Anyone who works in MFE Should be paid double automatically just for what they put up with.

I have massive respect for the nurses who work in those environments I think it is the most challenging area to work in.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Anyone who works in MFE Should be paid double automatically just for what they put up with.

I have massive respect for the nurses who work in those environments I think it is the most challenging area to work in.

I wish you were in charge of nurses pay! LOL

I love working with the elderly, but I am upset at how they are treated by the government after they fought wars for our future and after they worked and contributed for so many decades. We need more funding to get them out of hospitals and back in the community, with package of care or in good care homes.