Will the europeans ever be powerful?

So typical to look at who's military superior? thats the primitive thinking lots of americans have problems with..
Me as a dutch, we do what we are best in, trade..cause trading specially in your advance will bring the most prosperity[and thats what people want dont they?], not invading countries as even long-term strategies dont' work, as we seen more and more americans coming damaged from Iraq[in the brain]
The e.u is actually still somewhat the european, economic community, as a trading community we are even or more powerfull then the US, funny was how the repulican states supporting Bush got in economic war with the EU and all oranges got boycot from those probush, these are just small things..
Free trade and getting the most trading partners specially in your advance is what its all about, invading countries won't get you any further..Its silly to think to attack europa military as were are also a nuclear power, and all wil end in mutuall assurered destruction.



What i am woried about is america's possible bankruptcy, what would happend then? would they get their money over here? or will it collapse as rich states as california calls independece?maybe this is why the us is now on to this chaos theory in ME and so on.

o and p.s disneyland and universal studios?..plz keep that away from me thank you already a shame france got one of these

[edit on 19-2-2007 by Foppezao]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
And how would you do that?
France does not have the reachness to sustain a bombing campaign over India right from the French mainland.

At the moment, yeah probably, that's a fact.
If you mean a big campaign...yeah

India has no quarrel with the French and has a good military relationship with them.


Well i've got nothing against India personally i was answerin' to this dood "benict"...or something who brought India vs France in the subject .
I know India is a land of peacemen.

Originally posted by Foppezao
So typical to look at who's military superior? thats the primitive thinking lots of americans have problems with..

And having pride for ones military that protects our freedomes is primitive? According to your ill logic..it is. But its nothing more then your worthless, unprofessional, biased opinion. Something which has become expected from some of you euros. Our military is SUPERIOR to yours. That is fact! I guess in all my intellectual properties I am a "primitive thinker" to you. So be it. I couldnt care anymore or less.

Me as a dutch, we do what we are best in, trade..cause trading specially in your advance will bring the most prosperity[and thats what people want dont they?],

Yes, but its the value of what your trading that makes you 'superior'. Americas economy is based on the high end technology sectors. We accont for 40% of the worlds spending on R&D, whereas Europe has declined rather rapidly in that field. In order for the EU to 'get better' in these regards they need to develop the same sort of institutions which enables the U.S. to keep innovating, even in the face of entrenched opposition from the status quo. Same goes for china and other up and coming powers.

not invading countries as even long-term strategies dont' work, as we seen more and more americans coming damaged from Iraq[in the brain]
The e.u is actually still somewhat the european, economic community, as a trading community we are even or more powerfull then the US,

INNOVATING! that and the ability to adapt to the changing world. Thats the secret to a successful economy. It helps to ensure dominance rather then stick with the status qou. Mature economies inevitably have a growth problems, how do you create enough space for change and innovation, in a society where the existing entrenched players have a incentive to block or slowdown progress like that of the EU? To date, the U.S. is the only country which has solved this problem.

funny was how the repulican states supporting Bush got in economic war with the EU and all oranges got boycot from those probush, these are just small things..

Indeed these are small incidents. In fact, that is the first I have heard of them. Actually about 9x out of 10 I prefer european products over the likes of the chinese products etc.

Free trade and getting the most trading partners specially in your advance is what its all about, invading countries won't get you any further..

Mmm--kay. Explain to me the EUs stagnate economy then? why cant the EU agree on the proper reform to make the EU more competitive. The EU is to comfortable with the status quo its not even right.

Its silly to think to attack europa military as were are also a nuclear power, and all wil end in mutuall assurered destruction.

Ok, this is ridiculous, but how many american nukes are on European soil? We have a first strike capability against europe that europe most certianly does not have against us! however a conventional war is very unlikely, let alone a nuclear exchange between the two.

What i am woried about is america's possible bankruptcy, what would happend then?

Thats an overstatement, and wishful, pure blind speculation on your part!
America wont be going bankrupt. So your 'worries' are gone.. (they never existed)

would they get their money over here? or will it collapse as rich states as california calls independece?maybe this is why the us is now on to this chaos theory in ME and so on.

.....oh dear....what you just said was one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought, thus makeing everyone who has read it 'dumber'.....The drool on my keyboard thanks you.

o and p.s disneyland and universal studios?..plz keep that away from me thank you

already a shame france got one of these

Uhhh....And I care because? Is that somehow an insult? Blame the french for their own stupidity then. what more do you want?!

[edit on 022828p://5402pm by semperfoo]

What i was mentioning was the budgetary deficit..your budget is based on loans, loans giving by japanese savingsbanks, not to forget saudi oil money![was it 4% of the whole economy based on their money?what happens if they retreat that money?]and so on..For instance my government worked 4 years to elliminate that deficit, and it worked and the economy is floarishing now..
That deficit of the US cant stand very long, as Clinton even had a surplus, Bush threw that all away, thinking wars will make money[specially for the militair industrial complex] but the deficit wil get bigger and bigger, of course the strong euro isnt helping either does it? even the yen is sometimes stronger while the japanese economy is stagnating for some years.. What happens if oil producing countries[Iraq was beginning to do so] were trading their barrels in euro's?Saddam was about to and then the us attacked, not only to protect their oil but the dollar itself..
Also the economy is largely based on [america]consumption and chinese production, you dont want the chinese to stop exporting?[and vice versa]
Since some states in the US are very wealthy[California] and some are not, there will come a time some states are going to fill the deficit and some not..as the fith economy it would be hard to for california to carry the burden for to long..
All this warfare is not a sign the america economy is doing to well, also on a long term, the idea that their military must protect their interest, "their oi" and their dollar proves bush is in a predicament..
Of course we stand as an ally against terrorism just as we had the murder on theo van gogh and stuff with the islam, but the coming attack against Iran will not be supported not even by the british..
Winning the hearts and the minds, that helps more, why you think not a single dutchman has died in Afghanistan so far?, not that we're not willing to fight..

[edit on 19-2-2007 by Foppezao]

btw your avatar says it all[cool movie though]

Foppezao

You are vastly ill informed my friend. And for the sake of brevity im going to comment on your post rather quick and swiftly. The US GDP is growing faster then American Debt is. Now is what this means is that our debt is 'manageable'. Americas economy is growing at 3.5% a year, (something the EU could only dream of) and the most recent Federal Reserve estimates suggest that the US productivity machine is humming and that US economic potential growth is likely to be about 3%-3.5% for the foreseeable future. This would be not only a triumph for free-market economics but would place the US economy in a class of its own among the world's more mature economies. The US does not rely on china like you think and possibly wish it did. Though our happy meals thank china....

Now the dollar has been johnny on the spot for quite some time. The euro doesnt have such a track record. Your theory is not fact. And with the CIA predicting the breakup of the EU in a mere 15 years the euros future doesnt look bright to say in the very least. So it would not be in the best interest for any nations to switch to the euro.. Not before all the dust settles.

CIA gives grim warning on European prospects
news.scotsman.com...

The EU is starting to fall behind the rest of the world. Both economically and technologically. And by 2020 if its still around it will be surpassed by china and other emerging nations. The US is on forecast to be the worlds sole, true superpower by 2030, our GDP will have reached 30trillion USD. Trying to predict anything further than 2030 becomes a bit more cloudy.

Why the US Will Still be the Only Superpower in 2030
futurist.typepad.com...

btw your avatar says it all[cool movie though]

dirka dirka? LOL

[edit on 062828p://2402pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by semperfoo
Ok, this is ridiculous, but how many american nukes are on European soil?

Too many is the answer, you shouldnt have any on our soil.

We have a first strike capability against europe that europe most certianly does not have against us! however a conventional war is very unlikely, let alone a nuclear exchange between the two.

Not quite correct I'm afraid, while you outgun is in "numbers" you still forget that 2 of the original 5 nuclear powers are britain and france and both have more then adequate means to launch a salvo at the US. And this "break up of the EU within 15 years" thing, come on man, its the CIA for gods sake. When did we last recieve a credible shred of evidence from them?


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

agreed, i can find millions of websites telling me about why america will collapse and how.

there’s only an handful (of fearful american EXPERTS) that predict the fall of the EU, if the EU was nation it already outshines the United States in all departments, america simply cannot compete with it and the EU can 'extend' - all america can do if things get bad is states wanting their independence. or maybe form a 'north american union' but would country’s like mexico and canada want a share of america's debt burden?, if they form an alliance it will effect those nations economy also.

As for war, I’m sorry but american troops have to be the most poorly trained not just physical but mentality in the world, just because you give a monkey a gun with lazer beams doesn’t mean you can win wars….Europe is where most american military equipment is developed anyway.

[edit on 20-2-2007 by Sepiroth]

I would request we not respond to the 'Final Fantasy VII' villain, and remain on topic. It is obvious he is extremely bigoted and ill-informed, so the reply will do nothing more than to fuel some form of flame-war.

Let us keep on topic and keep our bias out of the discussion.




My god, and I thought American Public Education was bad.

Originally posted by Iblis
I would request we not respond to the 'Final Fantasy VII' villain, and remain on topic. It is obvious he is extremely bigoted and ill-informed, so the reply will do nothing more than to fuel some form of flame-war.

Let us keep on topic and keep our bias out of the discussion.

My god, and I thought American Public Education was bad.

Surely if you do not explain why he is wrong, why he is a bigot and so on and so fourth you're as bad as he is? Instead of correcting his "incorrect" view points you've said nothing on the topic and done as much harm as I have (now) and he did prior.

If such a post is so wrong report it and let the forum staff deal with the guy or correct him.

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by Iblis
I would request we not respond to the 'Final Fantasy VII' villain, and remain on topic. It is obvious he is extremely bigoted and ill-informed, so the reply will do nothing more than to fuel some form of flame-war.

Let us keep on topic and keep our bias out of the discussion.

My god, and I thought American Public Education was bad.

Surely if you do not explain why he is wrong, why he is a bigot and so on and so fourth you're as bad as he is? Instead of correcting his "incorrect" view points you've said nothing on the topic and done as much harm as I have (now) and he did prior.

If such a post is so wrong report it and let the forum staff deal with the guy or correct him.

Because he (sepiroth) is to ignorant to admit hes wrong. Hes blinded by his nationalistic views. His argument is vastly flawed, and without the common sense, its a waste of time reporting it in much less responding to his non sense drivel.

My advice to such ignorance is, Sh*t in one hand while wishing in the other and see which one fills up first. Thats as close to the truth that he will get.. BUH-BYE now.

[edit on 062828p://2602pm by semperfoo]

erm what have i said that is sooo wrong?, as the other member said point out what is SOOO wrong instead of just saying it and then maybe i'll come back with evidence to back up my statements and then we'll have a reasonable debate about it, afterall that is what these forums are all about.

but for now i'll just stick with what i said above.

FACT:- "i can find millions of websites telling me about why america will collapse and how"

FACT:- "there’s only an handful (of fearful american EXPERTS) that predict the fall of the EU, if the EU was nation it already outshines the United States in all departments"

FACT:- "america simply cannot compete with it and the EU can 'extend' - all america can do if things get bad is states wanting their independence".

FACT:- "Maybe form a 'north american union' but would country’s like mexico and canada want a share of america's debt burden?, if they form an alliance it will effect those nations economy also".

OPINION:- "As for war, I’m sorry but american troops have to be the most poorly trained not just physical but mentality in the world, just because you give a monkey a gun with lazer beams doesn’t mean you can win wars"

FACT:- "Europe is where most american military equipment is developed anyway".

[edit on 20-2-2007 by Sepiroth]

by semperfoo
Now the dollar has been johnny on the spot for quite some time

haha, classic.

FACT:- "america simply cannot compete with it and the EU

honestly seph you really need to educate yourself on the US, the US can't keep up with the EU? hmm the EU has a muslim jihadist issue they need to address before even dreaming of surpassing the US in the future, especially when the US population is gearing up for replacement policies that would ensure the 21st will be an american one.

aside from my comments I will take the suggestion iblis put forward, have a nice day!





[edit on 20-2-2007 by ape]

Same here ape. Iblis is correct, however let me leave with the last say.

sepiroth..

The US makes changes in order to stay on top. (unlike the EU who cant decide rather to take a sh*t, or get off the pot). Your comparing a continent to a single nation. I think that goes to speak volumes as to just how powerful america really is. The EU is starting to lose its edge with countrys like china and india gaining ground on the EU. It is the wage of the superpower to be envied. Others weaker vie for its influence and attention (the EU) With a declining population and a STAGNANT economy im afraid the EU is all superficial and clearly has the ppl with the likes of your intellect fooled. Meanwhile the american economy has shown nothing short of amazing resilience.

As for your bazillion sources... Perhaps its because its the new cliche to predict the downfall of america. Its envy friendThe dream of anti-Americans who relish the prospect of a possible collapse of the US economy, to any nation, surpassing the US is still a very distant one. that I assure you

One thing to keep in mind here, the US is growing. The EU is stagnating. Who will outlast who?

I think the below excerpt is dead on.... You though sepiroth with the antagonizing rhetoric probably will not like it..

The EU is well past being merely silly, as its vast complex of bureaucrats tries to control what 400 million speak, eat, and think. Its biggest concerns are three: figuring out how its nations are to keep paying billions of euros to retirees, unemployed, and assorted other entitlement recipients; how to continue to ankle-bite the United States without antagonizing it to the degree that these utopians might have to pay for their own security; and how not to depopulate itself out of existence. Europeans sold Saddam terrible arms for oil well after the first Gulf War. Democratic Israel or Taiwan means nothing to them; indeed, democracy is increasingly becoming the barometer by which to judge European hostility. Cuba, China, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah — not all that bad; the United States, Taiwan, and Israel, not all that good. Personally, I'd rather live in a country that goes into an anguished national debate over pulling the plug on a lone woman than one that blissfully vacations on the beach oblivious to 15,000 elderly cooked to well done back in Paris.

www.nationalreview.com...

When Europe orders all American troops out when Japan claims our textbooks whitewash the Japanese forced internment or Hiroshima; when China cites unfair trade with the United States; when South Korea says get the hell off our DMZ; when India complains that we are dumping outsourced jobs on them; when Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinians refuse cash aid; when Canada complains that we are not carrying our weight in collective North American defense; when the United Nations moves to Damascus; when the Arab Street seethes that we are pushing theocrats and autocrats down its throat; when Mexico builds a fence to keep us out; when Latin America proclaims a boycott of the culturally imperialistic Major Leagues; and when the world ignores American books, films, and popular culture, then perhaps we should be worried. But something tells me none of that is going to happen in this lifetime.


Also, it is ironic that people such as the French and Germans, who consider their societies to be so great, have little desire to continue it through producing another generation of French and German people. Their crushing entitlement programs and demographic time bomb have doomed their societies, and the unwillingness of America to follow them down this path has caused great disdain and envy towards America.




[edit on 122828p://5902am by semperfoo]

>sigh<

I can't be arsed to get into a big discussion about all this BS (coming from both sides)..

But...

Why do people persist with this notion that;

A) Europe's population is declining? It is not. Your misinterpreting the data. The birth rate has declined, not population growth. Big friggin difference between the two.

France last year actually had a huge baby boom, over 2.6 babies/woman and not from immigrants either, before you all jump up and down and scream "The muslims are coming! The muslims are coming!"

B) We are on the brink of some Muslim takeover? They constitute less than 5% of the total population of Europe....

And I just know someone is going to come back and say something brain dead like "but they have so many children..." Go on... I know you want too....

I've lost count the amount of times I have had to disprove the above two points to some Yanks. In the end, they all shut up when they realise they were wrong, but then along comes some new idiot's with the same tired mantra....

Originally posted by stumason
>sigh<

I can't be arsed to get into a big discussion about all this BS (coming from both sides)..

But...

Why do people persist with this notion that;

A) Europe's population is declining? It is not. Your misinterpreting the data. The birth rate has declined, not population growth. Big friggin difference between the two.

France last year actually had a huge baby boom, over 2.6 babies/woman and not from immigrants either, before you all jump up and down and scream "The muslims are coming! The muslims are coming!"

how many deaths did they have compared to those birth rates?

PS france hardly accounts for all of Europe.

B) We are on the brink of some Muslim takeover? They constitute less than 5% of the total population of Europe....

And I just know someone is going to come back and say something brain dead like "but they have so many children..." Go on... I know you want too....

I've lost count the amount of times I have had to disprove the above two points to some Yanks. In the end, they all shut up when they realise they were wrong, but then along comes some new idiot's with the same tired mantra....

That or your to damn ignorant to look the other way possibly
web.inter.nl.net...

[edit on 022828p://3502am by semperfoo]

[edit on 022828p://4202am by semperfoo]

Originally posted by semperfoo

how many deaths did they have compared to those birth rates?

PS france hardly accounts for all of Europe.

Again, you equating Birth rates = population growth. Birth rates are above death rates and always have been.

What is a problem is the birth rate in the EU is slightly lower than 2.1/woman, which is population replacement. What you are not taking into account that for every baby born, someone doesn't have to die! The population is growing, but it also living longer, much longer. The problem we face is not a shrinking population, but rather an aging one where that places a big burden on national budgets for when they get wrinkly.

I cited France because they were a previous example of stagnated population growth. And remember, or learn, stagnation does not mean shrinking, it just means that growth has declined.

Originally posted by semperfoo

That or your to damn ignorant to look the other way possibly
web.inter.nl.net...

Most of the examples cited in that web page are ex-soviet states and Russia, which isn't even an EU country! It also goes on about African and Asian countries with their populations.

Does that take into account the AIDS pandemic? Alot of African countries, whilst having trouble feeding their people anyway, are also facing a time bomb of a population implosion due to AIDS and other diseases.

Asia has a smaller, but still significant AIDS problem and also suffers from high infant mortality. Relying on birth statistics alone is wrong.

Many babies in Africa and Asia die before they reach maturity. You can pop out 5 babies per person in Uganda, but 4 will die before they reach 5.

You cannot extrapolate a furtuer population 50 years down the line from birth stats, without also taking into account infant mortality, disease and life expectancy as well.

Then you didnt bother to read the whole article then. It had alot about europe in it.

Europe’s population has developed new tendency to shrink, Science study reports
www.eurekalert.org...

The EU's baby blues
news.bbc.co.uk...


Just a few links from the main page I just posted...

As for staying on the topic here.. Will the europeans ever be powerful? In what sense?
This is a qoute from what I posted earlier. "Democratic Israel or Taiwan means nothing to them; indeed, democracy is increasingly becoming the barometer by which to judge European hostility. Cuba, China, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah — not all that bad; the United States, Taiwan, and Israel, not all that good."

Europe will need a strong military that is as strong or stronger then the Americas. The EU counts on Americas military capabilities way to much. Not its own... Though they do have some decent armed forces, still, they dont compare to the likes of americas military.. And probably never will. Countrys like the UK dont need to worry about a strong military. Chances are if you attack them your going to get the 800lb gorilla on your ass (the US). So this is why most european countrys dont worry about a capable military. They are under ameicas nuclear umbrella. They are comfortable with the status qou.

A pretty good read below It talks about basically what im saying..
Robert Kagan, "Power and Weakness"
www.mtholyoke.edu...

So I think Europes influence is starting to retract. Its shrinking...Europe is a bit past its prime. And as stated by the CIA if the EU doesnt get its sh*t together then the "EU" wont be around for too long. Believe it or not I dont get my jollys off to that either...



[edit on 072828p://2102pm by semperfoo]

[edit on 072828p://2402pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by stumason
>sigh<

I can't be arsed to get into a big discussion about all this BS (coming from both sides)..

But...

Why do people persist with this notion that;

B) We are on the brink of some Muslim takeover? They constitute less than 5% of the total population of Europe....

And I just know someone is going to come back and say something brain dead like "but they have so many children..." Go on... I know you want too....

I've lost count the amount of times I have had to disprove the above two points to some Yanks. In the end, they all shut up when they realise they were wrong, but then along comes some new idiot's with the same tired mantra....

hmm, what say you about the mosques in the UK ? the largest so called 'moderate' mosque was exposed as a place to preach hate and jihad, you have terror bombings in spain and in london which was homegrown... riots in france... the US has not been attacked since 9/11 and your own country stopped a potential terror attack on the US with that whole airline bust in july of 06. wake up please we need to check these muslims.


[edit on 21-2-2007 by ape]

Originally posted by benedict arnold
i dont think they ever will. THeir days are over. The british ditched india 60 years ago. The french are busy eating crepes and snails and the germans cant get over sauerkraut. Ok seriously they just cant get project any power nowadays. India could whip the French.

But do you think the europeans will ever have an important part to play in world affairs in the next 100 years. I got nothing to do so please respond.

Of course they have a part to play, a part as much as anyone else. I don't know on what terms you're implying they should be competing on..economic, military etc. I don't value a country or continent by virtue of how many people it's tanks can kill.

Europe is culturally and historically diverse continent..I happen to think that is an asset. Haven't ever been to the wonderful countries situated near the meidteraniun. or the mountainous areas? They're incredible. So geographically Europe is worthy of mention. However whether Europe can actually sustain immigration levels and social cohesion, remains to be seen. There is a diverse range of opinions on this issue.

I admire the way some European countries have maintained their culture and their independence, and I think that in a globalised marketplace loosing these things would be a very sad loss indeed.

[edit on 21-2-2007 by Ross Cross]