Will the europeans ever be powerful?

MDV2 shut you up about the inflation issue

Keep wishing. He didn't shut me up. I have disproven him with 3 proofs. The fact that he nevertheless doesn't admit being wrong only proves his ignorance.

Nono, it must not be biased, I mean, after it was only made by the same country they look at with an “objective” eye…yeah right

Keep dismissing my proof. By doing so, you're just proving your ignorance.

it’s the CIA’s, sorry if nobody trusts them, must be for something…

Yes: hatred towards the US.

So you’re telling me that if I go to the official polish intelligence service link, they are going to tell me the truth about the polish crappy equipment?

The same equipment that shot down numerous French Mirage fighters.

Yeah, the carrier

France has no aircraft carrier, the CDG is an LPD. And what if their soldiers go on strike like they always do?

Well numbers do matter if those numbers are of SUPERIOR equipment.

The only problem is that it is not superior. It is crappy. Unlike the combat-proven American equipment, which Poland uses. The "superior" French Mirage fighter has proven its to be inferior to the F-16.

Oh, and about Mirage…yeah well, F-16 would never get to see them, because EF-2000 is way superior to them, as well as better equipped, remember, your just buying old F-16, and you’re facing them against impossibly outnumbered EF-2000, as well as capable ground air defense, not crappy SA-7. like Poland has.

Another absurd statement. The F-16 is superior to the EF-2000, not vice versa. The EF-2000 is a crappy plane that has never taken part in any war. The F-16 has won several wars. The F-16 is superior to the EF-2000, and until the EF-2000 proves otherwise in real combat, it won't change. You can speculate, but the truth is that the F-16 is superior to the EF-2000.

You mean those 48 F-16? Those, winning against 180 EF-2000 , and the tanks…well, Air Superiority does matter, ask Saddam, or the arabs that fought Israel…

Israel has fought several wars against Arabs (all of which involved air combat) and has won every one of them. Hussein lost 2 wars against America, and the F-16s took part in both of those wars. If there was a war between Poland and Germany, Poland would be shooting down 50 planes for every one it lost. As I said, the EF-2000 is crappy.

Poland has NO power projection into Germany, they stand no chance of penetrating German territory, not for more than 10 seconds that is, before being blown to pieces.

If Poland attacked Germany, Germany would be overrun in one day, if the German soldiers didn't go on strike like they always do.

They let their cities and territory to be occupied, then their population abused and killed because that was their strategy!

Wrong. Poland didn't let its territory be occupied, Polish soldiers have liberated Poland with Soviet support.

Yep, the allies did, not Poland,

Wrong. Poland participated in WWII and has won it. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that is irrelevant, your opinion doesn't matter at all.

Yeah, sure those F-16

Those F-16 have won several wars. The EF-2000 has won none.

would shoot down 180 superior fighters……

Claiming that a fighter that hasn't participated in any war is superior is absurdal.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

So, F-16 is also superior to F-22. Hell, even SPITFIRE is!!!





[edit on 31-7-2006 by Duby78]

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Duby78]

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter
Keep dismissing my proof. By doing so, you're just proving your ignorance.

Prove it from a believable link, I'm just proving your illiteracy

Yes: hatred towards the US.

No, history, US tells lies, well known fact.

The same equipment that shot down numerous French Mirage fighters.

shooting down numerous French Mirage Fighters, flown by unexperienced arab pilots? F-16 may be better than Mirage, but it's old compared to EF-2000, yet, from your point of view, if Germany had F-22 Raptor, it would still loose...riiiiiiight Because after all, F-22 Raptor is not combat proven...
And what about T-72, Poland's MAIN BATTLE TANK? how would it fare in war?

France has no aircraft carrier, the CDG is an LPD. And what if their soldiers go on strike like they always do?

Yeah, it's not a carrier, it's just one big nuclear boat where fighters land...and what if the poles run from the field, or surrender against impossible odds?

The only problem is that it is not superior. It is crappy. Unlike the combat-proven American equipment, which Poland uses. The "superior" French Mirage fighter has proven its to be inferior to the F-16.

yeah...old planes rule new ones...like the Mig-21, which is better than F-16 because it had more kills during vietnam...RIIIIGHTTT. The superior EF-2000 is faster and can shoot them from BVR...mmm

Another absurd statement. The F-16 is superior to the EF-2000, not vice versa. The EF-2000 is a crappy plane that has never taken part in any war. The F-16 has won several wars. The F-16 is superior to the EF-2000, and until the EF-2000 proves otherwise in real combat, it won't change. You can speculate, but the truth is that the F-16 is superior to the EF-2000.

Yeah, I'll take your precious word for it...wait, no I won't, The F-22 and the JSF have never taken any part in any war, yet they are both clearly superior than F-16 or F-18, well, EF-2000 is one generation away from your old F-16, at least you could have bought newer models, LOL

Israel has fought several wars against Arabs (all of which involved air combat) and has won every one of them. Hussein lost 2 wars against America, and the F-16s took part in both of those wars. If there was a war between Poland and Germany, Poland would be shooting down 50 planes for every one it lost. As I said, the EF-2000 is crappy.

Do you know how to read? Both the arabs and saddam are proof that air superiority matters, POLAND DOESN'T HAVE IT. If there was a war, Polish planes would be taken in the ground, remember? NO AIR DEFENSE, Iran has more Air Def than Poland...

If Poland attacked Germany, Germany would be overrun in one day, if the German soldiers didn't go on strike like they always do.

Proof of those strikes like they always do? No? Thought so, AGAIN, you better stop lying huh?
What would Poland attack with? 128 tanks against 800?
48 old planes, flying over enemy WELL defended terrain, against 180 brand new ones?

Wrong. Poland didn't let its territory be occupied, Polish soldiers have liberated Poland with Soviet support.

No, they fought to the bitter end…nono, wait, they mass surrendered. Soviet Union “liberated” Poland only to make it a communist state, some liberation huh? Talk about heroics…

Poland participated in WWII and has won it. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that is irrelevant, your opinion doesn't matter at all.

Your absurd dreams of glory are irrelevant, Poland was beaten to the ground by German and Soviets alike, then “liberated” only to be a communist state, slave to the Soviet Union, you don’t matter at all.

Those F-16 have won several wars. The EF-2000 has won none.

Mig-21 has more kills, yet F-16 is better, maybe because it’s NEWER? Nah…what would you know, aside from F-16 and Patria AMV, all Poland has is crappy equipment.

Claiming that a fighter that hasn't participated in any war is superior is absurd.

F-22 is known to be superior to F-16, yet is hasn’t participated in any war, your way of twisting reality to fit your absurd view of Polish power, is not only absurd, but laughable.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter
Keep dismissing my proof. By doing so, you're just proving your ignorance.

Prove it from a believable link

I already have. The fact that you consider in uncredible is irrelevant, your opinion doesn't matter.

No, history, US tells lies

It's Europe who is telling lies. Just like about Hussein's WMDs.

shooting down numerous French Mirage Fighters, flown by unexperienced arab pilots?

French pilots aren't experienced either. Since GW1, France has NEVER taken part in any war. Not that experience would matter though.

F-16 may be better than Mirage, but it's old compared to EF-2000

Age of a plane doesn't matter. The F-16 is older than the EF-2000, yet it has shot down 70 enemy fighters while the EF-2000 has shot none.

Yeah, it's not a carrier, it's just one big nuclear boat where fighters land...

It's just one big nuclear-powered boat that can at best serve as a base for flying targets for Polish F-16s.

and what if the poles run from the field

Polish soldiers have never escaped from the field.

or surrender against impossible odds?

The ones who'd surrender against impossible odds would be the French and the Germans. They always surrender. Remember what happened in 1940? Yeah, that's right, France surrendered to Germany.

yeah...old planes rule new ones...like the Mig-21, which is better than F-16 because it had more kills during vietnam...

No, the MiG-21 is inferior to the F-16. While the MiG-21 has shot down many planes, it also has been shot down many times itself. The F-16 has shot down 70 planes while never being shot down itself.

the JSF have never taken any part in any war, yet it's clearly superior than F-16

It's not and it won't be until it proves that in real combat. Which, however, will happen, as America is the world's policeman.

Do you know how to read? Both the arabs and saddam are proof that air superiority matters, POLAND DOESN'T HAVE IT.

The Polish Air Force's superiority over the FAF and the Luftwaffe is UNDEBATABLE. The PAF uses combat-proven planes, the FAF and the Luftwaffe don't.

Proof of those strikes like they always do?

Yes. Read this article:

No, they fought to the bitter end…nono, wait, they surrendered.

I wouldn't call flying your flag over your country's capital surrender.

Poland participated in WWII and has won it. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that is irrelevant, your opinion doesn't matter at all.

Your absurd dreams of glory are irrelevant, Poland was beaten by the Germans

Wrong. Poland wasn't beaten by the Germans, Poland has defeated the Germans. The fact that you deny that is irrelevant, your opinion doesn't matter.

Mig-21 has more kills, yet F-16 is better, maybe because it’s NEWER?

Age doesn't matter. Besides, as I said above, while the MiG-21 has shot down many planes, it also has been shot down many times itself. The F-16 has shot down 70 planes while never being shot down itself.

aside from F-16 and Patria AMV, all Polish equipment is crappy.

Ah, so in your opinion the Leopard 2 tank is crappy. Now you're contradicting yourself, earlier you said that the Leopard 2 tank is the best MBT in the world.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

Well...I'm sorry Jimmy, but just have been Own3d...take a couple of minutes to let the feeling sink in. Then try reading some books, maybe the news or something that will give you an actual notion of the real world. Enjoy

try reading some books, maybe the news or something that will give you an actual notion of the real world.

You are the one who should read some books.

You are the one who said Poland lost WWII (which is incorrect). You are the one who said Poland didn't play a crucial role in WWII (which is incorrect). You are the one who knows nothing about history. You are the one who should read some books.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

Not the world faults Poland sucked real bad on WWII, live with it.
Nevertheless, I'll stop feeding the cave troll, oh and by the way, I'm not german, so go wave "your" flag somewhere else,

If that Polish-German war happens real soon so you can see with your own eyes the load of bollocks you have been saying unfold the other way.

Lastly, good thing you leave Europe, one illiterate less, we don't need that kind of ignorance here

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

You are the one who said Poland didn't play a crucial role in WWII (which is incorrect).

And he is right. Poland didn't play a crucial role during World War two. Of course you will say I am wrong again, but then please tell me once when exactly they had a crucial role.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Not the world faults Poland sucked real bad during WWII

Oh yeah, Poand sucked and s played a crucial role in liberating France and defending GB, liberated itself, North Africa and the Middle East and overrun Berlin.

As I said, you know nothing about history. You have proven my claim to be correct.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili

Lastly, good thing you leave Europe, one illiterate less, we don't need that kind of ignorance here

Good luck with your visa, you probably know it is not easy to get one. May god save America. Western Europe has already been flooded by cheap Polish laborers founding entire new colonies in Britain and other countries. The more going to the US the better.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Mdv2]

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

Zibi

Someone tell me who this Zibi is. It's not me. ...

Well, Zibi was a horrendously ill-informed polish teenager whose main tactics were to furiously accuse other members of making up their arguments (although these arguments often were common knowledge and should have needed no further explanation),

- who relied almost exclusively into the CIA factbook (although it has been proven inaccurate many times... after all this is only a public rendition of the certainly more correct classified documents they have),
- who had an extremely limited grasp of the realities of a military and war (which was shown to him by several active or ex-military members, and others by simply using common sense or readily available public knowledge),
- who had an extremely exaggerated view of the british armed forces for which he was multiple times rebutted by british forum members themselves,
- who felt it was easy to see that France or Germany basically are jokes of nations in about EVERY possible aspect, which of course was as ridiculous as it was simply untrue (and a great source of amusement to many fellow members who had just the slightest glimpse of reality),
- who wasnt capable of seeing the validity of other arguments over his own except for one or two isolated cases where it was blatantly obvious that he was wrong,
- and who, above all, immediately felt insulted when someone set him straight, resorted to insults against whole nations and people in specific on his own and who also became known for his angry U2Us.

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

On the contrary, it is the French and the German militaries that are inferior to the Polish armed forces. You are ignoring the fact that unlike the Polish military, the French and the German militaries are not true militaries, but just means of employing people.

[...]

This is true. What makes the Polish military the most decent in Continental Europe is that its soldiers are lower paid than those of any other NATO military except for Turkey. The Polish military, unlike the French and the German militaries, exists to fight, not to provide lifetime jobs for the unemployed like the French and the German militaries. ...

Well, I don´t know what age or region you are from (or do I?), but this is simply wrong and it doesnt even need sources to prove this, because this is common knowledge.

First, Only a MINIMAL quantity in EVERY armed force around the world consists of "lifetime jobs". The largets part of armed forces are made up by people serving short terms from ~1-5 years. The second biggest part are those that serve terms from 15-25 years. So basically that will send them into civilian status by the ages of 35-45... and you call THAT a job program? A job program for the unemployed would work the other way around... the military then should consist of family fathers who lost their jobs in thier middle ages. But that is not how it works. Try and find me an armed force that will accept a 45 year old into service
The true "lifers" are those that are able enough to be of benefit for the military for their whole life - which are always specialists of some sort (officers, technicians etc....). And anyone who has this kind of mental capability or education CAN find a job in civilian life, too.

Second, the armed forces west of the Iron Curtain WERE in constant readiness to fight the most dangerous opponent since the Germans in 1940. Germany for example at one time had over 5000 tanks and almost double of its current manpower. France had and has a well-equipped Air Force and Navy throughout the entire time. The French had countless international intervention mission which they fulfilled all by themselves. Earlier you said that these both nations did not join the Iraq war because they simply werent capable to. I wont go into this because this is simply an ridiculous statement, but one shouldnt forget that both nations have troops deployed to nearly 15 countries.

Third, the low pay of Polish soldiers is not because they are a "true military". You will find that the pay (including non-monetary benefits) in the USA or the UK isnt very much different - which sort of kills your argument. The reason why France and Germany have higher wages for their Soldiers than Poland is that France and Germany are stronger economies than Poland with a higher living cost and higher living standards... which is also the reason why a german plumber earns more than a Polish plumber, a french taxidriver earns more than a polish taxidriver or a british barkeeper earns more than a polish barkeeper.

And fourth, the rule "no success without domestic customers" applies. Noone (except you) would deny that German and French companies are exceptionally capable in the defence industries sector. A personal (german) friend of mine runs a company that is the most important supplier of a certain type of technology for, among others the companies Thales, Elbit and Raytheon. He started with supplying german defence companies first. The baseline principle is that without a home customer, it is not possible to develop this kind of technology. And that means that these successful and innovative french or german companies supply their armed forces first. And these armed forces ONLY buy these technologies when there is a need for them - which in turn implies that these militaries are advanced and capable enough to even think of buying and using this expensive stuff.

Western Europe has already been flooded by cheap Polish laborers founding entire new colonies in Britain and other countries. The more going to the US the better.

Personally, I'm not moving to the US, but to a different country. However, in the US and other English-speaking countries people can live at a standard about which they could only dream in Continental Europe.

Well, I don´t know what age or region you are from, but this is simply wrong and it doesnt even need sources to prove this, because this is common knowledge.

So that's your way of saying "I can't prove myself right and I don't know anything about warfare but I hate America so I'll just state nonsense".

Read this article: www.nationalreview.com...

he reason why France and Germany have higher wages for their Soldiers than Poland is that France and Germany are stronger economies than Poland

Wrong. The Polish economy is growing stronger than both the French and the German economies, and economic growth is what's relevant. Links:
www.cia.gov...
www.cia.gov...
www.cia.gov...

(Yes, my proof is the CIAWF, which so many ATSers are dismissing as "biased", but it doesn't matter, that only proves that you are ignorant)

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

Originally posted by Mdv2

Good luck with your visa, you probably know it is not easy to get one. May god save America. Western Europe has already been flooded by cheap Polish laborers founding entire new colonies in Britain and other countries. The more going to the US the better.

No mdv2, you must be wrong, since according to the CIA World Factbook, Poland's Economy is steadily groing...yet if that was true, Jimmy/Zibi/Cave Troll fellow poles wouldn't be looking for well paid jobs in other countries...

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter
Personally, I'm not moving to the US, but to a different country. However, in the US and other English-speaking countries people can live at a standard about which they could only dream in Continental Europe.

Well, if you lived in Western Continental Europe you wouldn't say that...maybe that's why you need to dream of Polish Greatness...envy?

Next: Unmasking the secrets of a cave troll...

Lol, Lonestar, good luck trying to get Zibi...ehm...Jimmy...lol, let's just call him the cave troll, into reality, he lives a harsh reality, living in a country with a smaller GDP than Mexico...

Maybe he has been incubating all this time waiting to attack threads again...yet this time he came from a deepest cave yet...Poland stronger than Germany or France, or any other Western European country...

Ok, lets calm it down a little and keep away from personal insults please.

Point out the faults and inconsistencies in others points with facts. Attack the argument, not the member.

Thank you,

Jak

1 more proof that Poland is economically outperforming France and Germany:
www.nationmaster.com...

That site claims that the source it's relying on is the CIAWF, yet the CIAWF says that Poland's economic growth rate is 3.2%, while Nationmaster says that it's 5.6%. In any case, Poland is economically outperforming France and Germany.

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

Well, I don´t know what age or region you are from, but this is simply wrong and it doesnt even need sources to prove this, because this is common knowledge.

So that's your way of saying "I can't prove myself right and I don't know anything about warfare but I hate America so I'll just state nonsense".

No, as I said this is common sense which is known by everyone with just a slightest glimpse of how a military works. And I didn´t mention America with one bad word, so your effort to discredit me is somehow strange.

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

the reason why France and Germany have higher wages for their Soldiers than Poland is that France and Germany are stronger economies than Poland

Wrong. The Polish economy is growing stronger than both the French and the German economies, and economic growth is what's relevant. Links:
www.cia.gov...
www.cia.gov...
www.cia.gov...

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter
1 more proof that Poland is economically outperforming France and Germany:
www.nationmaster.com...

That site claims that the source it's relying on is the CIAWF, yet the CIAWF says that Poland's economic growth rate is 3.2%, while Nationmaster says that it's 5.6%. In any case, Poland is economically outperforming France and Germany.

...Which again shows that you simply fail to or deny understanding other people. It is not the economic growth rate that is relevant when we are speaking of MOMENTARY economic strength. Lets say tomorrow the country of Togo finds to sit on the world´s largest crude oil source of the Earth, and soon they will have an economic growth of 15 percent within a year. Could they have the same economic status of France and Germany within several decades? Yes. Do they have it tomorrow? NO!

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER POLAND HAS 2 OR 3 MORE DIGITS OF ECONOMIC GROWTH, because we are speaking of NOW, and RIGHT NOW Poland is an economic dwarf compared to these two. That doesnt say that things might now change within time, but the status of NOW is undisputable regardless of ANY GROWTH rate you might throw at us.



[edit on 31/7/2006 by Lonestar24]

jesus, i can't believe everybodys getting wound up by poland, they don't have electricity yet do they???