Trump - Russian connections....FAR DEEPER than anyone ever imagined

a reply to: UKTruth

No one is saying the document does not exist.

Then why do you think it is not newsworthy that it has been submitted to Congress?

I am saying I don't believe anything in the document and therefore I believe it to be fake.

Ah, so now you merely believe it is a fake. Nevertheless, just because the allegations may be false, the document remains very real, not fake.

I do not need to prove that and nothing you say will change that simple fact.

Now that you admit that it merely a belief and not a proper conclusion you have nothing to prove. The allegations may be true or they may be false. All I have ever said is that they are plausible, and given my reasons why they are. You don't need to explain your beliefs, but it might not be a bad idea to clarify whether or not you think they are plausible.

Those that claim the document is not fake need to prove it.

I have linked to the document. it is not fake. The question is whether the allegations are true. We don't know one way or the other, but they are plausible.

It seems the obvious needs to be repeated to you over and over again.

You are the one who seems to lack all understanding of logic. I am finally beginning to doubt that English is your native language, you use it so poorly.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: UKTruth


No one is saying the document does not exist.

Then why are Trump and his followers screaming about CNN, Buzzfeed and fake news about the document? All they reported was that the document existed and the info in the document had not been verified.

In the absence of evidence the unconfirmed and unsubstantiated nature of the information in question, removing all bias anyone should be able to see the only clear motive to leak and report it is because it was politically expedient.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: UKTruth

No one is saying the document does not exist.

Then why do you think it is not newsworthy that it has been submitted to Congress?

I am saying I don't believe anything in the document and therefore I believe it to be fake.

Ah, so now you merely believe it is a fake. Nevertheless, just because the allegations may be false, the document remains very real, not fake.

I do not need to prove that and nothing you say will change that simple fact.

Now that you admit that it merely a belief and not a proper conclusion you have nothing to prove. The allegations may be true or they may be false. All I have ever said is that they are plausible, and given my reasons why they are. You don't need to explain your beliefs, but it might not be a bad idea to clarify whether or not you think they are plausible.

Those that claim the document is not fake need to prove it.

I have linked to the document. it is not fake. The question is whether the allegations are true. We don't know one way or the other, but they are plausible.

It seems the obvious needs to be repeated to you over and over again.

You are the one who seems to lack all understanding of logic. I am finally beginning to doubt that English is your native language, you use it so poorly.

An awful pivot.

The fake news is from CNN and Buzzfeed.
The fact a document exists is not in question and subsequent news that Congress are looking at it is also not fake.

Any statement that the document is fake is of course a belief. The reason being that I do not need to do any work to validate that view. I can position it how I like... is fake.. I think its fake, it's probably fake.... none of that changes the fact the burden of proof will always remain on the accuser.

Now, if you are not claiming that the document is true, then you can wait for evidence like any normal person would do.
Speculating that it might be true and providing one sided links to support that it might be true is actually what you have done, and it's clear you are not interested in providing any evidence, only a narrative. If your intentions were to seek truth, you would have provided links challenging the veracity of the report. You are partisan.

My view will remain grounded in the real world:
The is no evidence that the document contains any truth.
CNN and Buzzfeed published fake news.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: UKTruth


No one is saying the document does not exist.

Then why are Trump and his followers screaming about CNN, Buzzfeed and fake news about the document? All they reported was that the document existed and the info in the document had not been verified.

Because they are saying the document is fake and are annoyed at CNN and Buzzfeed for publishing fake news. Fairly reasonable reaction.
Lets say that someone decided to drop leaflets through the closest 1,000 homes to yours that falsely claimed you were a child molester, and they added a note to say... found this about Kaylaluv, we can't verify it is true but we thought you should know. I think you would be fairly pissed off, rightly so.

If I was the President-elect, this would be news that someone was dropping leaflets that claimed I was a child molester. Regardless of whether it was true or not, I couldn't blame the media for reporting that the event happened.

a reply to: UKTruth

Donald Trump has said that the document is fake and all lies.

Unfortunately for him, his lies are well documented, making him less credible than his accusers.

In your world, does that mean the onus is on him now to gather evidence and prove the document is fake?

Of course not. He does not have to prove anything... although it would be wiser if he just dismissed the allegations and shut up. The more he attacks his accusers, the more prominent the issue becomes.

For members just joining this thread, it would be helpful to go back and start here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Certain participants here seem to be deliberately obscuring the difference between false allegations that are reported accurately and news that is completely fictitious.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: UKTruth

Donald Trump has said that the document is fake and all lies.

Unfortunately for him, his lied are well documented, making him less credible than his accusers.

In your world, does that mean the onus is on him now to gather evidence and prove the document is fake?

Of course not. He does not have to prove anything... although it would be wiser if he just dismissed the allegations and shut up. The more he attacks his accusers, the more prominent the issue becomes.

For members just joining this thread, it would be helpful to go back and start here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Certain participants here seem to be deliberately obscuring the difference between false allegations that are reported accurately and news that is completely fictitious.

You are correct that the onus is not on Trump because he said the information was fake.
You see, you can concede when you are wrong. Well done.
i am glad we finally agree that the onus is on those making the allegations to prove them as was pointed out 8 pages ago.

CNN nor Buzzfeed 'accurately' reported false allegations.
Firstly, reporting false allegations is fake news.
Secondly, CNN even made their own mistakes, claiming initially the document had been briefed to Trump. They also had to back track on the Michael Cohen Prague meeting.

a reply to: UKTruth

An awful pivot.

The fact a document exists is not in question and subsequent news that Congress are looking at it is also not fake.

Careful, you'll get whiplash from maneuvers like that one.

Any statement that the document is fake is of course a belief.

And your belief does not mean that the news is fake, provided it is reported accurately. Now, why are you avoiding explaining why you do not think the story is plausible? I assume that is the basis of your belief. (Otherwise it would just be irrational, right?)

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: UKTruth

An awful pivot.

The fact a document exists is not in question and subsequent news that Congress are looking at it is also not fake.

Careful, you'll get whiplash from maneuvers like that one.

Any statement that the document is fake is of course a belief.

And your belief does not mean that the news is fake, provided it is reported accurately. Now, why are you avoiding explaining why you do not think the story is plausible? I assume that is the basis of your belief. (Otherwise it would just be irrational, right?)

I do not need to explain why I think the story is not plausible.
I thought we had already agreed, finally, that the burden of proof always remains on the accuser. Seems you can't shake your misconceptions of due process.

As for the document, nowhere has it been claimed in this thread that it does not exist, so you are pushing more fake news to pivot away from the simple message that you can't legitimately argue against... there is NO evidence that the document is true.

a reply to: UKTruth

You are correct that the onus is not on Trump because he said the information was fake.
You see, you can concede when you are wrong. Well done.

I never said it was up to him to prove anything, so I was not wrong in the first place. You, on the other hand, stated that the dossier was fake as a matter of fact, not opinion, or belief. You have since backpedaled on that rather than admitting that you are wrong.

CNN nor Buzzfeed 'accurately' reported false allegations.

They published them verbatim, and made it clear that their provenance was doubtful. That is accurate reporting and there is nothing that you can say that will change that.

Firstly, reporting false allegations is fake news.

Firstly, the English language is what it is. You can stop with your Orwellian attempt to make it mean what it does not mean.

Secondly, CNN even made their own mistakes, claiming initially the document had been briefed to Trump. They also had to back track on the Michael Cohen Prague meeting.

Two separate issues. There has been confused reporting over whether the document was included as part of a larger briefing, possibly as an annex that was not brought to Trump's attention. Trump is not much of a reader. As for Michael Cohen, they accurately reported what the dossier says. Cohen has claimed that the allegation is false. You are welcome to believe him if you wish... but his unsworn testimony is not proof of anything.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: UKTruth


No one is saying the document does not exist.

Then why are Trump and his followers screaming about CNN, Buzzfeed and fake news about the document? All they reported was that the document existed and the info in the document had not been verified.

Because they are saying the document is fake and are annoyed at CNN and Buzzfeed for publishing fake news. Fairly reasonable reaction.
Lets say that someone decided to drop leaflets through the closest 1,000 homes to yours that falsely claimed you were a child molester, and they added a note to say... found this about Kaylaluv, we can't verify it is true but we thought you should know. I think you would be fairly pissed off, rightly so.

If I was the President-elect, this would be news that someone was dropping leaflets that claimed I was a child molester. Regardless of whether it was true or not, I couldn't blame the media for reporting that the event happened.

Whether you blame them or not is irrelevant.
The news is still fake. CNN and Buzzfeed included the allegations (despite what CNN claim).
CNN and Buzzfeed will only be exonerated if the document turns out to contain accurate information. The burden is now on them to prove the allegations they have published to millions of people.

a reply to: UKTruth

I do not need to explain why I think the story is not plausible.

Correct; you have made it clear that your rejection of the claims is irrational and partisan. It is a belief, not a logical conclusion.

a reply to: UKTruth

The burden is now on them to prove the allegations they have published to millions of people.

You do not understand what journalism is. They only have to prove the document is real. It is, even if the information is false.

a reply to: DJW001

Yeah, I get that Trump is mad because CNN/Buzzfeed reported on something that makes him look bad. He claims that because he says the document is filled with false allegations, that no one should be reporting it. But that's not how the news works.

Do CNN and Buzzfeed have ulterior motives in reporting this news? Maybe. Have they broken any journalistic rules by reporting it? I don't think so. The document exists, the intelligence agencies have it, it has to do with the most important person in our country, the allegations have not been verified. These are all elements of what has been reported, and every one of these elements are true.

If CNN/Buzzfeed were reporting that all allegations in the document were proven to be true, THAT would be fake news.

a reply to: kaylaluv

If CNN/Buzzfeed were reporting that all allegations in the document were proven to be true, THAT would be fake news.

Don't forget the converse: if they had proof that the allegations are true, it would be their duty to publish them. This is not Russia, where the press is not allowed to publish things that would tarnish the reputation of the Leader.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: UKTruth

You are correct that the onus is not on Trump because he said the information was fake.
You see, you can concede when you are wrong. Well done.

I never said it was up to him to prove anything, so I was not wrong in the first place. You, on the other hand, stated that the dossier was fake as a matter of fact, not opinion, or belief. You have since backpedaled on that rather than admitting that you are wrong.

CNN nor Buzzfeed 'accurately' reported false allegations.

They published them verbatim, and made it clear that their provenance was doubtful. That is accurate reporting and there is nothing that you can say that will change that.

Firstly, reporting false allegations is fake news.

Firstly, the English language is what it is. You can stop with your Orwellian attempt to make it mean what it does not mean.

Secondly, CNN even made their own mistakes, claiming initially the document had been briefed to Trump. They also had to back track on the Michael Cohen Prague meeting.

Two separate issues. There has been confused reporting over whether the document was included as part of a larger briefing, possibly as an annex that was not brought to Trump's attention. Trump is not much of a reader. As for Michael Cohen, they accurately reported what the dossier says. Cohen has claimed that the allegation is false. You are welcome to believe him if you wish... but his unsworn testimony is not proof of anything.

Trump also stated that the dossier was fake as a matter of fact. You seem to now have two positions on this. So which is your real position. Do you think a person stating an accusation is fake means that they need to prove that an accusation is fake? If so, why do you think Trump does not now carry the burden of proof, but I somehow do? Your argument is inconsistent.

The Onion also make clear the information they publish is false. It's fake news.
Buzzfeed admitted at least some of the document is false, but published those sections anyway. Same thing. Fake news.

The English language is perfectly clear in this regard. Here is a list of synonyms for 'false':

bogus,deceitful,dishonest,distorted,erroneous,fake,...
www.thesaurus.com...

You just posted more fake news about CNN. They got the information wrong. It was false that the document was briefed to Trump.
They also specifically corrected the Michael Cohen information, saying it was a different Michael Cohen. You are either not up to speed on the facts, or are lying to defend the fake news CNN pushed out.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: UKTruth

The burden is now on them to prove the allegations they have published to millions of people.

You do not understand what journalism is. They only have to prove the document is real. It is, even if the information is false.

Lol, clearly you are confused.
Are you claiming that if a journalist publishes something that they believe to be fake, with a note saying 'I think this is fake' that they are not engaging in fake news.
The mental gymnastics to try and pretend CNN and Buzzfeed did not publish fake news is stunning.

a reply to: UKTruth

Trump also stated that the dossier was fake as a matter of fact. You seem to now have two positions on this. So which is your real position. Do you think a person stating an accusation is fake means that they need to prove that an accusation is fake? If so, why do you think Trump does not now carry the burden of proof, but I somehow do? Your argument is inconsistent.

Donald Trump knows whether the allegations are true or not. If they are true, it is in his best interest to lie and claim they are false. If they are false, it is appropriate to challenge the accusers to produce their proof. (Oddly he has not done this.) The burden of proof is on the one making the allegation. Ironically, Trump is now the one making the allegation that the news is false. He was better off just leaving it alone, but his tendency towards counter-attack opened him up to further damage.

a reply to: UKTruth

Are you claiming that if a journalist publishes something that they believe to be fake, with a note saying 'I think this is fake' that they are not engaging in fake news.

Correct. Apparently there is no journalism where you come from

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: UKTruth

I do not need to explain why I think the story is not plausible.

Correct; you have made it clear that your rejection of the claims is irrational and partisan. It is a belief, not a logical conclusion.

What i said is that I do not need to explain why the document is not plausible. That would be trying to explain why something is fake, and i do not need to. You can alter what I say if you like, but it only serves to make you look desperate.

You can;t seem to make a consistent argument on this, claiming I am under some burden of proof for saying the document is fake, but stopping short of saying the same about Trump who has also called the document fake.

You'll need to hone your argument and make it consistent and avoid changing what I am saying to suit your argument if you want to be taken seriously.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: UKTruth

Trump also stated that the dossier was fake as a matter of fact. You seem to now have two positions on this. So which is your real position. Do you think a person stating an accusation is fake means that they need to prove that an accusation is fake? If so, why do you think Trump does not now carry the burden of proof, but I somehow do? Your argument is inconsistent.

Donald Trump knows whether the allegations are true or not. If they are true, it is in his best interest to lie and claim they are false. If they are false, it is appropriate to challenge the accusers to produce their proof. (Oddly he has not done this.) The burden of proof is on the one making the allegation. Ironically, Trump is now the one making the allegation that the news is false. He was better off just leaving it alone, but his tendency towards counter-attack opened him up to further damage.

So are you now changing your position and believe that the onus is on Trump to prove the allegations are false? You seem to be jumping around all over the place on this...