Revisiting Jaques Vallée - Beyond the Control Loop

a reply to: billydebunker

Lol, I love it! Ever notice it's the ones who haven't even come to grips with the fact that flying saucers are real, are the ones who will tell you exactly what an alien would and wouldn't do?

Where do I mention "flying saucers?" If your belief that there are physical extraterrestrial beings performing medical experiments on human beings is true, their technology is not as good as ours. Think about that. Does that make sense?

"Reproductive?" he says, somehow shocked at the idea, despite fifty years of reports and quite public discussion of it. Are you really posting in a UFO website and somehow unaware that nearly every abduction report details reproduction and hybrids?

You fail to understand the difference between an individual's interpretation of an experience and the experience itself.

Wow, you ought to tell the aliens they're doing it wrong, you could probably save them a lot of money and time. But your opinions on what the aliens are up to are not worth much when you have to ignore all the evidence, and our opinions are worth a great deal more because we are speaking from a position of experiential knowledge.

This close mindedness will prevent from truly understanding what is going on. You have reduced your experience to the level of crass materialism to protect your psyche from the truth. I do not know what you experienced, but the descriptions in the reports are not consistent with actual physical medical procedures. Furthermore, the very idea of a "hybrid" stretches plausibility. Humans have 23 chromosomes composed of four different amino acids. How many chromosomes would a being that spawned on another world have? There are a few dozen amino acids that would work just as well as the four used in terrestrial life. What are the odds that two creatures that evolved on different worlds would be biochemically compatible at the genetic level?

"Nonsensical belief", he says. Sorry friend, this is the real world.

Apparently, you do not live in the real world. If you studied the reports of the "UFO" phenomenon objectively, you would have observed, as Vallee has, that the "aliens'" technology always seems to be only a decade or two ahead of our own. In the Middle Ages, witnesses described ships in the sky resembling medieval cogs. In the 1800s, witnesses saw zeppelins complete with steam engines. After the "Second World War," it was rockets, followed by swept wing aircraft. Why does their "technology" change at the same rate as ours does?

a reply to: DJW001

Apparently, you do not live in the real world. If you studied the reports of the "UFO" phenomenon objectively, you would have observed, as Vallee has, that the "aliens'" technology always seems to be only a decade or two ahead of our own.

First of all, Vallee is a bit of an idiot, if you hadn't noticed, and more than a bit of disinformation. Here's the proof he ain't all that bright:

Flying saucers that people see today are the same as they were in the 1940s.
Simple as that, he's proven wrong.
So there goes THAT B.S. theory up in smoke, buddy. Poof! Gone! If, as ol' Jacques would have the simple-minded believe, that "alien" technology is always only a DECADE ahead of our own, then there's the proof he is wrong. Their technology has NOT advanced one bit in the SEVENTY YEARS or modern UFO contact.

I look forward to hearing your back-pedaling response, but your theory, and Jacques, just crashed to the ground like Roswell. Real world, peace out!

a reply to: billydebunker

Their technology has NOT advanced one bit in the SEVENTY YEARS or modern UFO contact.

Apparently you know absolutely nothing about the UFO phenomenon. You can start here:

en.wikipedia.org...

ETA: Please mind you manners.

a reply to: billydebunker

It's in your mind. You've never been on board of a UFO, physically. It's just the gaps your brain fills with lore. You don't really remember anything, you invent based on what you heard and read.
You want to feel special? Okay, you are, you're the best brainwashed little rat confused about the hand that is reaching inside your cage from time to time. Better?
How can there never be a UFO sighting while someone has an abduction experience? Explain that.

originally posted by: underwerks
I've always loved reading Vallee. I believe there are a few different explanations for anomalous sightings. Some are physical nuts and bolts craft, some are ours, some may be interdimensional bleed throughs, and some are space animals. Depending on what is sighted.

Good post. This is most likely the best prediction for what the UFO phenomenon is--a collection of phenomena being mistaken for one single thing.

a reply to: billydebunker

Really? Okay I'll just ignore you. All you have to offer is insults and attacks, back it up, or shut up.

a reply to: billydebunker

There are indeed many. many UFO sightings while someone has an abduction experience, why would you argue such an ignorant point?

Seeing as you didn't respond to my post earlier : www.abovetopsecret.com...

What would you say are the most convincing cases for evidence of alien abduction are then?

I will politely ask again which cases you feel represent the most convincing evidence for alien abduction?

originally posted by: Willtell
The fact is Vallee came in contact with some of these mystics at one point and that is one of the reasons for his expansion of understanding.

Vallee's links with the Rosicrucians are worth considering, although it might be that his quest for explanations would naturally lead him across their path.

My personal view differs from Vallee's, in that he suggests that these UFO encounters and the way they're conducted is all part of an attempt by someone or something to slowly educate us or guide our thinking (and therefore reality) along a particular route into the future.

I'm not so sure. The thing about human beings is we're smart and clever. We want to learn stuff. So all an "alien" entity has to do is be honest with us and present us plainly with what they would like us to learn, and we will do our damndest to learn it. We don't need to be tricked into it like training a dog to do tricks. Now, maybe it's standard alien protocol to only contact and teach species in this obtuse way. But if they know anything at all about us, they'll understand that we don't need to be taught in secret.

Otherwise, high strangeness just keeps suggesting to me that a lot of what makes UFO encounters so baffling is that we're just not smart enough or perceptive enough (or in the right way) as an animal species to comprehend what's going on. It's not a conspiracy. It's our own stupidity.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Otherwise, high strangeness just keeps suggesting to me that a lot of what makes UFO encounters so baffling is that we're just not smart enough or perceptive enough (or in the right way) as an animal species to comprehend what's going on. It's not a conspiracy. It's our own stupidity.

Exactly. Some people would rather take comfort in reductionist, materialist explanations like the ET Hypothesis, rather than admit to themselves that there are aspects of reality-- including the workings of their own mind-- that they are incapable of comprehending.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: Blue Shift

Otherwise, high strangeness just keeps suggesting to me that a lot of what makes UFO encounters so baffling is that we're just not smart enough or perceptive enough (or in the right way) as an animal species to comprehend what's going on. It's not a conspiracy. It's our own stupidity.

Exactly. Some people would rather take comfort in reductionist, materialist explanations like the ET Hypothesis, rather than admit to themselves that there are aspects of reality-- including the workings of their own mind-- that they are incapable of comprehending.

And some people would rather take comfort in pretending that alien beings are not taking people and doing whatever the hell they want with them.

Are these beings from another planet or another dimension? Another plane of reality? Existing outside of anything we understand? I don't know, they never told me, and they saw to it that I didn't think about it either. I would have no trouble believing they were extra-dimensional if that turned out to be the case. But make no mistake, they are in physical bodies and metallic ships when they perform abductions.

Now, I have yet to see you address the fact that Vallee was wrong when he said their technology was always only a decade or two ahead of ours. Vallee is largely a fool, a man without any experience in alien contact, doing little more than guessing just as the rest of you are.

originally posted by: billydebunker
Now, I have yet to see you address the fact that Vallee was wrong when he said their technology was always only a decade or two ahead of ours. Vallee is largely a fool, a man without any experience in alien contact, doing little more than guessing just as the rest of you are.

I find it foolish for someone who admits to having no answers beyond their own severely limited perceptions to be so quick to judge all others wrong.

Mirageman, mirageman, mirageman. What would you like me to say to you?

I know you, and you know all the cases, the ones that are printed up in books, anyway. And you also know that is the tiniest of fractions of abductions. So are you asking me to point to a case that you already know? As if anything will change the mind a dedicated, hard-working pro-con. Anyone with your extensive knowledge of published UFO information and STILL isn't on board (no pun intended), I can't imagine charging their mind over anything I could say.

The most convincing case? Mine. Of course. The facts of my experiences won't change your mind. It is madness to pretend that all these upstanding people telling the same details of their encounters are wrong. What an absurd avoidance of reality, in my book. But hey, who knows how little I would understand about abductions too if I didn't know it as a fact.

And your question is kind of deceitful, too. Asking for ONE BEST case for abduction. That's simply disingenuous, and a common technique used by professional debunkers, not that you are one, of course, I have no way of knowing if that is the case. I'd only be guessing. The trick is to try and limit the phenomenon to a single case. When the weight of evidence for alien abduction is in its massive, epidemic proportions. A worldwide epidemic, all with the same exact details and description. More people have been abducted by aliens than have had the Zika virus. Think about that.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: billydebunker
Now, I have yet to see you address the fact that Vallee was wrong when he said their technology was always only a decade or two ahead of ours. Vallee is largely a fool, a man without any experience in alien contact, doing little more than guessing just as the rest of you are.

I find it foolish for someone who admits to having no answers beyond their own severely limited perceptions to be so quick to judge all others wrong.

And yet, I'm still waiting for you to address the fact that Vallee was wrong when he said that alien technology was always just a decade or two ahead of our current technology. This thread is about Vallee, right?

a reply to: Blue Shift

I'm not so sure. The thing about human beings is we're smart and clever. We want to learn stuff. So all an "alien" entity has to do is be honest with us and present us plainly with what they would like us to learn, and we will do our damndest to learn it. We don't need to be tricked into it like training a dog to do tricks. Now, maybe it's standard alien protocol to only contact and teach species in this obtuse way. But if they know anything at all about us, they'll understand that we don't need to be taught in secret.

Very reasonable statement. The problem with it is that it may apply to you or many others but there is an ocean of disturbed human beings in existence that it doesn’t apply to.

In metaphysics there’s something called Worlds and something called dimensions.

In any dimension it has basically 4 worlds but in any world there are infinite dimensions.

The problem is travelling dimensions takes a certain ability and perceptive capacity ordinary humans don’t have at this point or have lost.

We basically can only perceive 2 of these 4 worlds and we're actually imprisoned in one of the infinite dimensions because of that and other reasons.

This is something that I think Valle came to understand. And these “Aliens” have a capacity to traverse dimensions inside this world.

Though I don’t think their that much ahead of us in the final analysis.

One day we will be able to, I believe, perceive the entire world and traverse dimensional consciousness like them

a reply to: Blue Shift

So all an "alien" entity has to do is be honest with us and present us plainly with what they would like us to learn, and we will do our damndest to learn it. We don't need to be tricked into it like training a dog to do tricks. Now, maybe it's standard alien protocol to only contact and teach species in this obtuse way.

See, this is why I regard Vallee as not at all bright, or disinformation, for pretending to put a positive face on a sinister situation.

They aren't concerned with our "learning" a damn thing. Tell me what teachers take their "students" against their will when no one is likely to miss them? Tell me what teachers need mind control to force you to go with them? Tell me what teachers harvest sperm and egg? And most of all, tell me what "teachers" do their best to wipe your memory clean every time they take you?

The only thing they are teaching us is that we are a species they can prey upon.

originally posted by: billydebunker

I think your post is darn interesting. I do like your emphatic insistence that the reality experienced by other people cannot exist because you say it doesn't exist. That's some seriously blustery proclamations right there, sounds alittle on the omnipotent side, don't ya think? It shows a grandiose disregard for the fact that your absence at these events makes your opinion on their veracity really quite worthless, as anything but an opinion, anyway.

I think you're not getting what these people are trying to tell you - that you really can't trust yourself or how your perception works (especially in an "out-of-the-box" situation). Funny thing is you don't get that they don't even discard your experience (as even you can't be sure of what you experienced). I suppose you ought to update yourself in recent studies and finds in the area of the mind/brain/consciousness, in order to understand how little "you" is really you. The unconscious is at play every single moment of your existence, and it's a tad bit funny that you don't even realize it. Like most (if that's a relief).

Hybrids... Gah...

Funnier thing is, you addressed one of the few left currently proactive members of this community that still provides decent thoughts/reads/analysis on UFOs as if he didn't have a clue what he's talking about. Take a minute and reflect on that.

I'll be dead honest. Which month of your UFOlogy career is this? 3rd? And if you say anything above 1 year, well... I'd just fly away from this thread silently.

OP, sorry for being so much off topic but these people need to get straightened out. My Internet BS filter has been filled up to the breaking limit because of this dude. Greatest thread in awhile. And interesting thoughts on behalf of most posters! Keep 'em coming.

Tetra, that's where the hammer met the nail.

On the topic, probably the scientific routes that we will take in the next 50 years will lead to death of the ego? Singularity, darn you're interesting.

p.s. on the other hand, a sincere thank you, debunker Billy, I've yet to see a better example of the control loop than people stomping their feet with tears of egocentric anger in their eyes shouting at everyone "I know the truth and you know nothing and are dead wrong" when you really are tumbling around in a dark room underground with your eyes blindfolded and you don't know SNIP. Plato said it better 2,000 years ago "I know that I don't know anything, but the rest don't even realize that".