Women - How do you look at other women-Are my perceptions weird because I'm trans-deep thoughts

a reply to: Mousygretchen

''they'' don't sound very nice...budding in here..
i believe we all contain attractive qualities...outer appearances explain little of what makes a person likable, huggable fun to be near and attractive...you probably seem to much for them to handle and they just do not know how to approach you ..so as tough as it has been for me...the most simple gesture is saying hi and your name..and just be happy to get that out without expecting too much in return...unless there is a meshing or clicking of the natural characters between new people...then it might be fun to meet a new woman!
sometimes being introduced by a friend is better...other times ya gotta be brave...me, i cling to women bartenders my whole life..makes things simpler...especially when they are familier with regulars...
any how, Mousygretchin....just had to jump in here and tell you my expeirences meeting new women folks...hope it helps a bit!

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: Freija

I'm pretty chill about it really. I know I'm different and that difference has a name and it's Transgender and I refuse to be made to feel ashamed of or down about who I am, I've had enough of that in my early life.

It is interesting how perspectives can vary so widely and how one's life experience can shape them. I only know what I feel and think inspired by some of the things I've read and some of my own observations. I think a lot of the differences in the way we perceive things stems back to some of our childhood experiences, our different paths and how we have come to be the people we are.

I was not abused as a child. I grew up in a loving and compassionate environment that was more or less understanding of my atypical (for a boy) interests, actions and behaviors. Certainly, I was presented with opportunities and steered toward having a masculine personality/identity but these things were never forced beyond my appearance. Quite simply though, none of these things ever clicked or were intrinsic to my nature.

In times of reflection, I've often wondered just what would have been so different about my childhood if I had been born female and raised as a girl? Obviously, there would have been a lot fewer social problems and far less issues with my physicality but beyond that, it's hard to think what would have been much different. I played and socialized with girls, I had girls toys, got to do a lot of things typically considered within the realm of other girls and heaven knows, was well versed and proficient in the domestic arts of cooking, cleaning and general homemaking. Clearly from an outside perspective, there's little doubt that my feminine nature and personality had a lot of nurture and reinforcement as I grew up. The way things turned out, I am grateful for this.

Some may point an accusatory finger at this saying my parents, my mother or my environment are what made me the way I was but my own perspective is that these things were because of the way I was, not the cause of it. I'm sure about that. In spite of the packaging, I've always known myself to be and expressed myself as a girl and even as a child these things were obvious to others. I think that's one of the big differences between you and I?

You may be more willing and able to accept yourself as and identify as transgender because there was more "transing" in your life than mine and it's more recent for you? I am somewhat familiar with your story, life in the military and identity as a man and life before transition regardless of how much you were faking it or repressing your dysphoria but my life experience has been very different. There's no intended value judgment there at all, I can't stress that enough but perhaps this is just some insight as to why I don't care much for identifying with or applying the transgender label to myself? Besides that, I was whatever this is long before that was even a word and things that were problems for me four and a half decades ago haven't been much of a problem for me since.

However, I'm not delusional about things. I know I am not the same as someone that was born female even though that's what the vast percentage of my life has been like or how has it has been lived. I know this body I inhabit is not the same either but with a little work has been made as close to normal as it could possibly be. Give an old lady a break okay if I don't feel it's necessary to add the modifier "trans" to my description of myself as a woman. It's not so much being trans as the language and labeling that bugs me.

I didn't touch not a one of my prescribed pain pills after my surgery and the doc was like "really? You must be tough" the pain wasn't bad enough for me to feel like I needed them.

What surgery was that, if it's not too personal to ask? You made me curious.

I'm very much a tomboy when it comes to interests, hobbies, entertainment and such but I'm very glam fab girly in manner of dress.

I don't think anyone would describe my style as remotely "glam fab girly" and I don't even remember the last time I wore a dress except some old thing around the house. There have been times though when I was younger I went through sort of an Annie Hall thing then a Madonna/Cindi Lauper funky, trashy sexy phase for a while that was fun. When going somewhere I do put on a little make-up and spend too much time screwing with my hair because it's long and all over the place but my style is very casual and utilitarian for the most part. I like to look pretty in a conventional sense but I'm just not into clothes or what's fashionable much for myself but I do like looking at style and fashion. I kind of like watching beauty videos and trying new things and products too.

I also have my badass side!

originally posted by: peppycat

i look at women as i would a male...both are human beings with thoughts and emotions...i used to be a jealuos possesive friend of another woman and i looked at her like she was incomparable friendship...or like a mom or bro...
now i just try to look at all folks with a pleasant thought of not being super possesive...hope i make sense to your question about looking at other women from my perspective as myself.
i usually wait until i am noticed or some other friends point out a person to me...growing up with brothers made me feel like they might feel looking or approaching a woman..shy or not sure what say or how to look at one...by my twenties i got over that stuff and would strive for appropriate complements on the way they look or what cute/sweet factor is in their character..it's not so easy to win a gal over if there is some sorta mean boyfriend near her...so i strive to just make friends with folks as you never know for sure who is spoken for who sometimes!
or they don't have some sort of ring or other notice of being already commited in union with eachother !

this is a great thread and i love the opportunity to share with ya my thoughts on looking at a woman!
happy Tuesday and hope to read more writing from ya!

Peppy, you're quite an enigma and I must say fascinating and confusing at the same time. You are peppy - you're full of life and energy and feelings and emotions and that comes across clearly even if I don't get all the words sometimes. What you may lack in language you make up for in spirit and heart and I am glad to have you in this conversation.

originally posted by: Freija

However, I'm not delusional about things. I know I am not the same as someone that was born female even though that's what the vast percentage of my life has been like or how has it has been lived. I know this body I inhabit is not the same either but with a little work has been made as close to normal as it could possibly be. Give an old lady a break okay if I don't feel it's necessary to add the modifier "trans" to my description of myself as a woman. It's not so much being trans as the language and labeling that bugs me.

That was my point with you in a previous post of mine .... You are who you

are, and obviously comfortable in your skin and owe no one an explanation

except for anyone in a close 'intimate' relationship, which would also apply to every

one?


Its a similar situation to someone who goes far up the social ladder, but cannot get

over their earlier 'working' class up bringing and brings it up at every opportunity.

A sort of 'reverse snobbery' .... A potential relationship of mine never got off the

ground due to this type of behavior.

a reply to: Freija

You may be more willing and able to accept yourself as and identify as transgender because there was more "transing" in your life than mine and it's more recent for you?

Don't get me wrong it's not exactly some banner I cling to or anything like that. I'm certainly no activist type and I see myself and others as human beings before and above all else. I don't really refer to myself as Trans other than when I'm trying to explain it to people that knew me pre-transition and unfortunately Caitlyn Jenner is an easy point of reference that people understand immediately. You kind of have to talk about it though when your entire social circle knew you pre transition it's pretty much unavoidable under those circumstances.

What surgery was that, if it's not too personal to ask? You made me curious.

Breast augmentation, I still have about 2 more weeks or so before I'm fully healed up from that. Unfortunately genetics did not bless me with much in that department and what I was working with were not suitable to my frame. I'm naturally thin but not frail by any means, I have a female basketball players frame. The only other surgery I'm guaranteed getting is a Brazilian butt lift and SRS is on my list but not sure what route I'll take with that just yet, I'm certainly in no rush.

I don't think anyone would describe my style as remotely "glam fab girly" and I don't even remember the last time I wore a dress except some old thing around the house.

Allow me to correct myself my style is actually very eclectic and I do casual most times but when I go out out I like to dress to the nines. Most times though I'm in sweats or basketball shorts and tee's around the house, I do jeans and tee's a lot too. I'm so excited hoodie weather is back YAY!! I'm so lazy sometimes but I work from home so it's easy to fall into a disheveled state lol.

I took a professional make up course with ultimate face cosmetics and I had to buy their make up kit for $500 which is actually pretty good make up so I'm glad I made that investment . I'm just now getting to the point where I'm comfortable leaving the house without make up but fortunately I have a pretty good complexion to begin with.

a reply to: peppycat


Depending on who "they are that your reffering to. What I mean specifically is simply women I see when grocery shopping or whatever it is. Thanks for the advice.

a reply to: Mousygretchen

ah, its fun speaking with folks...women or man at grociers...i am not sure...who ''they'' are...if i seen your avatar at grociers i might be intimidated! and yet me in my orthopedic shoes and bellbottoms...i might just be having too much fun!...basiccally most human peeps scare me as i am currently not feeling like more than a pill bug..or sowa bug....going unoticed as i get from a to b!
have a great wedsnsday! i try not to steel anyshow whereever i go and have kept in the shadows...until i make a great line...like..."hey everything well here...being treated fine...15 minute breaks after two hours and a lunch time?" you know not quite pick up lines just the basics...making sure drinking water here at work is acceptable!

originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
a reply to: Freija
I don't really refer to myself as Trans other than when I'm trying to explain it to people that knew me pre-transition and unfortunately Caitlyn Jenner is an easy point of reference that people understand immediately.

Oh gawd! Caitlyn Jenner? That IS unfortunate!

My generation had Christine Jorgensen up until about 1977. Then Renée Richards came into the public eye but that was a little late for me. Neither were like me but I get what you're saying about a point of reference. "Hey Christine" was a popular high school taunt. Assholes! (I secretly liked it and took it as a compliment)

You kind of have to talk about it though when your entire social circle knew you pre transition it's pretty much unavoidable under those circumstances.

This is inconceivable to me and I can only imagine how very difficult to do. That takes a lot of guts and conviction and hella strength. I had no social circle or friends to explain things to - zip, nada, and it was already obvious to kids I went to school with what was going on. My mom and step-dad are the ones that broke the official news of my new name to the extended family when I was 18 (1973) but by then it came as no surprise to anyone and was anti-climactic. Like, "no sh!te Sherlock", what took so long?

I didn't even tell my birth father, my mom did. She made it her mission before she died. I hadn't even heard from him since I was 14 but she tracked him down and let him know he had a new daughter but by then I was 24 at the time. Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation but basically, I didn't have to tell anybody anything. Telling friends must have been/be really hard? I think I've told one person in the last 15 years and it's usually a matter of convincing them I'm not joking around. I'm known for having a rather warped sense of humor.

I'm so lazy sometimes but I work from home so it's easy to fall into a disheveled state lol.

Tell me about it. I work mostly from home too and today I'm not quite sure but I think crows have nested in my hair? That's okay though because I put on a baseball cap and am going out to mow my lawn!

Thanks for adding your voice to this discussion. Interesting how we have things in common but yet are so different.

a reply to: Freija

I don't tend to size people up. I actually don't tend to see people as existing until they do something that calls them to my attention. I know that sounds weird....but the world is just a blur of background information to me until something steps out of the background to command my attention.

So I often leave a party and cannot tell you who was there. I meet people and shake their hand, introducing myself, only to be told we've met before.

If someone is physically attractive, ill notice them regardless (what I think is attractive is a bit off the beaten path for most folks, so I don't notice "hot chicks" as they aren't very attractive to me). People who look like someone I know, enough I do a double take....i notice them as well.

I don't connect with anyone until they communicate back at me. During public speaking, this mostly is the people who maintain eye contact and nod in dissent or agreement. In social settings it would be someone that actually understood me during small talk, and didn't look at me like i just had a worm crawl out of my nose.

I guess i should add, RE: "attractive people"....after the first few years of marriage, this mostly become an acknowledgment in the back of my mind. Now, after 21 years of marriage, its hardly even that. I would say i recognize/pay attention to a lovely piece of art in the same way: disinterested amusement. Im just not real social, despite being friendly.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

I don't tend to size people up. I actually don't tend to see people as existing until they do something that calls them to my attention. I know that sounds weird....but the world is just a blur of background information to me until something steps out of the background to command my attention.

I must admit that I'm a people watcher. I find them fascinating and I do size them up but not in a critical or judgmental way. I just like to look and observe, women in particular, and I do make comparisons to myself. I can't help it. The whole point of this thread was to get some kind of feedback if the things I see and look for are common or how all this trans business may make me look at things in different ways? I'm sure it must at times since it consumed me as a child.

These things I've pondered here aren't a big deal or life changing, just mild curiosities from an inquisitive mind. I think a lot and I'm a questioning person and have always thought introspectively and probably too much when it comes to matters of sex and gender. When those things are divergent such as with folks like me, that's just part and parcel of the trip and somewhat unavoidable to do sometimes. I find my own reactions and feelings and a few of the things that come out when I write are sometimes surprising or curious even to me but this is growth and growing something I always hope to do as a person. If nothing else can be said about me, it's that I'm not asleep as the wheels are always turning.

As Kaylaluv wisely pointed out earlier, I think some of the things we look for in others are those things that give us cause to think about our own features or our own presentation. In the supermarket for example, one of the first and most instantaneous things I notice about another women is if she taller than I am and if she is built like me and what other physical similarities and differences there are? It takes a nanosecond.

I think my burning question is though, is am I built like her? Is my body like hers? I can't but help but think a lot this is some of the damn body image, mind fluk crap that comes with being a female of the aftermarket persuasion and wanting to fit in and be seen as normal not be seen as reasonably different physically. Having a formerly male body involves a little extra processing of these things on a level that I can't see that natal girls have to deal with so how could that not color my lens or key me into observing things in a certain way? In some ways though, I feel many of my perceptions are third-eye-open insightful into things others don't really see and I treasure my view even though it burns extra CPU cycles.

I think we all strive to find our place? I'm about 5'7", of average build and not wholly unattractive nor am I overly insecure or lacking self confidence. Yes, I see women that I wish my body or appearance was more like but there are plenty of women that make me thankful for the body and looks I have. I said before it all goes around. I am well within the spectrum and happy with my lot in life and who I am and observing helps me find that place. I may have a few extra things going on there but I think I'm pretty human?

There was another paragraph here but I lost it. Damn, it was good too!

So I often leave a party and cannot tell you who was there. I meet people and shake their hand, introducing myself, only to be told we've met before.

Well, I may be a little more aware and socially conscious than that but names seem to sometimes go in one ear and out the other. I've been working on that. It is rare for me to forget a face or a voice though and I'm the one usually reminding people of a prior introduction. I suppose not being particularly remember able is a good thing though?

If someone is physically attractive, ill notice them regardless (what I think is attractive is a bit off the beaten path for most folks, so I don't notice "hot chicks" as they aren't very attractive to me).

We've got to consider what the media and others say is or should be attractive is not necessarily the whole of things that that we can be attracted to in others. Sure, conventional beauty and good looks draws our eye but these are subjective standards. Most of us find other qualities that are equally or more attractive to us. It may be one specific feature or aspect or it may just be a person's presence or vibe or smell. I've been drawn to different people for reasons only my own. Sometimes it doesn't even make sense but I'm glad it doesn't.

In social settings it would be someone that actually understood me during small talk, and didn't look at me like i just had a worm crawl out of my nose.

Hey, you're an ATS moderator. I can imagine your small talk would make most anyone slowly back away.



So what else has all this been about and why have I spent so much time and late nights here writing all this often raw and revealing exposition on some of my inner mental mechanics and life? In a way, I think the effort has been to help humanize people like me. To show that we're thinking and feeling and complex individuals just like everyone else even if I may be personally a little weird and atypical.

I've put a lot of myself into this and put myself out there and it's not for some validation but just to let others see what at least one person that is like me is kind of about. I almost feel obligated. Being trans, changing sex and all that is not who I am. If you've read this wordy thread or others, you'll also know all this was a long time ago in my life but there's no denying it is a part of who I am and my history and I think being open and sharing some of the stories and things I've been through helps people to understand. Not me so much, hell, I don't even understand me half the time but for others in general so there's not so much mystery and confusion about all these things.

More Americans claim to have seen a ghost than have ever met or spoken to a trans person. Most of my posts on this board have focused on advocating for trans youth and trans issues in general, check my post history if you don't believe me. I've worked hard at this. Most threads have been adversarial and nearly all have had their moments of ignorance and anti-trans intolerance and narrow-mindedness and sometimes overwhelmingly so. It has turned me into a fighter and into an educator and helped me to find a voice to even talk about these things.

This post has been different though. I've stepped away from facts and research and politics to instead just share my thoughts and feelings and some of the ways I think and in some ways, have bared a bit of my heart and soul so people can get to know someone like me and improve that ghost to trans ratio and so the next time someone conducts a survey or asks if you've even met someone of trans experience, at least the people here can say, "yeah, I know this Freija chick from ATS".

Thanks everyone for your participation and for reading, thinking and hopefully getting to know me a little better? I figure there's an element of risk in this because at times I can be a little out there or too over the top for some but I know most of my friends and the people I know and work with think I'm a sincere, hardworking and caring person with a good heart and that's all that really matters to me.

a reply to: Freija

Im sure this'll go all over you....and you should know by now that isn't my intention....

but "body dysmorphic disorder" likely explains why you focus on it. That whole inadequacy thing. That isn't to say that there is a label that ties any of it down....its rather nebulous when you try to apply diagnostics to it, I think. And manifests in multple ways, with blurring of cause and effect.

I think most folks struggle with it at least a little bit.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Freija

Im sure this'll go all over you....and you should know by now that isn't my intention....

but "body dysmorphic disorder" likely explains why you focus on it. That whole inadequacy thing. That isn't to say that there is a label that ties any of it down....its rather nebulous when you try to apply diagnostics to it, I think. And manifests in multple ways, with blurring of cause and effect.

I think most folks struggle with it at least a little bit.

Oh BFFT, JFC, we've been through this before. It is NOT body dysmorphic disorder. It is NOT body integrity identity disorder. It is transsexualism i.e. Gender Dysphoria. Full stop. You my friend are not a doctor even though you may have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently. I've been to actual doctors, you know like psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, endocrinologists, physicians and surgeons, literally dozens or more from the time I was 10 years old with this plus there's the whole lifetime of experience thing of just being a girl among others.

I am not inadequate. I do not feel inferior. I didn't even feel the need to defensively shout those lines. I feel myself solidly equal to any other woman. I'm actually pretty kickass, resilient, determined and rock solid. I do not desire to be other women nor am I cursed with jealousy toward them nor do I want anything I don't already have and am completely happy and satisfied with who I am, my body and my life except it would be nice to be rich and to lose a few pounds and maybe have drunk sex once and a while. There are differences between me and a natal woman but I dare you to examine anything about me or my life and find them other than the things I've discussed here. Shall I undress first?

I have a few insecurities but find me anyone that doesn't. They aren't crippling or disabling or depressing or causing anxiety at all. If anything, they're areas to work on improvement. Having been born male and now having a female body, as much as this is natural and normal for me and I can't imagine myself being any different at all... um, that is kind of a big thing that's sorta hard to forget but it's certainly no obsession or something on my mind I'm always thinking about.

I sit down. I write on this board and I am trans or if I use my preferred terminology, a woman of past transsexual experience. I step away from the keyboard and I am not trans anything, at least as far as the world is concerned. It is not part of my daily life but the things that drove and forced me to change my body, which again is called GENDER DYSPHORIA*, still keep me aware my body was born male and as I so loathed those aspects of me, which was more than any one specific thing, it does make me look at other women and wonder what would be different about my physicality if I had been born female. Would I have been thinner? Taller or shorter? Would I have smaller hands and feet? Would I have been more athletic or had a ton of babies? I just don't know because my body type and things about me aren't really any different from any other women I see. Those differences or looking for them and why I do it I think has been adequately explained so, Doc, shouldn't you be heading out to the golf course golf about now for your afternoon round?



* Technically, I was diagnosed pre-DSM 3 with what was called primary transsexualism prior to that. Back then they weren't politically motivated to blur the lines between primaries (kids) and secondaries (adults) like they do now in this country but don't in most of Europe. They are different. Then of course, it became called GID and now gender dysphoria - but it's all the damn same thing. To the lay person, maybe sorta kinda like BDD or BIID but not to professional real actual doctors that know the difference.

a reply to: peppycat


Yeah I like small talk too lol.