The Sabbath

The scriptures reveal that which is important for us to know. Do you think our Father would not let us know what the mark of the beast is? Do you know which commandment is referred to as a sign? Do you know what the forhead symbolizes? Do you know what the right hand symbolizes?

"And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes." Deuteronomy 6:8

Originally posted by Yxboom
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Jesus is enough.

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"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

If you can show me where the apostles (or even the Lord Jesus Himself) said that Sabbath keeping is a requirement, then I will recant.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21





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Posted by sntx
Snip...
The scriptures reveal that which is important for us to know. Do you think our Father would not let us know what the mark of the beast is? Do you know which commandment is referred to as a sign? Do you know what the forhead symbolizes? Do you know what the right hand symbolizes?

"And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes." Deuteronomy 6:8

Yes, I understand that, but conversely, the bible says that the people who belong to Him are sealed in their foreheads by His Holy Spirit. Do you deny this?

Posted by sntx
Snip...

Posted by Yxboom
Jesus is enough.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

Is that your way of trying to say that I don't belong to Jesus? That's cute.

Posted by sntx
Snip...

Posted by Yxboom
If you can show me where the apostles (or even the Lord Jesus Himself) said that Sabbath keeping is a requirement, then I will recant.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.

Let me guess: "you" are doing the will of the Father, but I am not. Did I guess correctly???

The above is a perfect example of why the Seventh-day Adventists have cult-type tendancies --> because they believe that their Christian sect is the only sect with the truth. This is beautifully demonstrated by sntx's innuendo inference that when I will approach the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the age, He will rebuke me by saying "departart from me, you worker of iniquity." Anyone who rejects the teachings of Adventism is lumped into this exact same category. IMO, Sabbath keeping Adventism is a cult. In their view, either you are with them -- or you are against them!!! It's a seige mentality!!!

I still love sntx and the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah Witness, but their "exclusive clubs" (aka cults) claim exclusivity above all other Christian denominations. However, I will continue to rest in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ instead of the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah Witnesses. For that, those cults will reject us, but that's okay, as long as the Lord Jesus Christ will accept us because it it so Him that we must ultimately give an account of our lives.

We must have mercy on the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah Witnesses because they have yoked themselves with the Old Testament requirements of the law --> and they don't realize it. The 10 commandments were the ministration of death, but nonetheless, they were glorious. However, if the 10 commandments were were glorious (as the ministration of death), then how much more glorious is grace, as is now exercised in the ministration of the Spirit in the New Testament?

Jesus is enough.

Bless you sntx.

Originally posted by Yxboom
Yes, I understand that, but conversely, the bible says that the people who belong to Him are sealed in their foreheads by His Holy Spirit. Do you deny this?

No, I do not

Is that your way of trying to say that I don't belong to Jesus?

That's cute.

No, it is not my way of saying that you don't belong to Jesus. It is Christ's way of instructing on what is expected by those who follow him.

Let me guess: "you" are doing the will of the Father, but I am not. Did I guess correctly???

I try with everything that I have to do his will. I am fallible and a sinner. How do I or anyone else know what sin is? We look to the commandments. It is not up to me to judge your actions. I am not aligned with any particular sect of Christianity. I am lead by the holy spirit and try to live my life by every word of god.

I still love sntx and the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah Witness, but their "exclusive clubs" (aka cults) claim exclusivity above all other Christian denominations. However, I will continue to rest in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ instead of the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah Witnesses. For that, those cults will reject us, but that's okay, as long as the Lord Jesus Christ will accept us because it it so Him that we must ultimately give an account of our lives.

I love you too. Please do not try to confuse the issue by lumping me together with "clubs" that I am not a member of. I am not expousing the teaching of any sect. I am only pointing out what is written in the scripture that is meant to serve as instruction for fallible man. I have not rejected anyone (and as I have mentioned it is not my place to do so) and I pray often for all people.

By saying you are not under the law you make a mockery of our saviors sacrifice. Are you free to kill, steal, worship other gods, and commit adultery? If not, why not? You shouldn't be yoked to those laws either. As I have pointed out repeatedly we are free from the death which is the penalty for breaking the law. We are to repent and sin no more.



Steve

>> I still love sntx and the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah Witness, but their "exclusive clubs" (aka cults) claim exclusivity above all other Christian denominations.


Hello,
The above statement makes me so sad. There is still so much darkness & ignornance in this world, which is evident by the above statement. I don't know who wrote it and don't really care. It's a shame that people who are serious about scriptural study can't do like the Bereans that Saul (Paul) spoke about. They didn't just take Saul for his word. What they did was search the Scriptures daily to see if what Saul was saying was the truth! He thought extremely highly of them for doing so, and this was a guy (Saul) who had the sacred ruach.

It's easy for some people to make the statement, Well, they must just be a cult because they're different than me. Some people throw about the word "cult" quite frequently and loosly. If they were going strictly by the definition of the word "cult," they'd soon see that they follow a cult too because it can actually embody the whole religious systems of the world.

Another thing. I'm not a JW or an SDA, but I have friends from both places. I work for a person who is a JW some of the time, and he's the best around, completely honest and treats me well, would never try to stiff me.

So all in all, I consider the above-mentioned statement very narrow-minded and very arrogant.

Tiza

Originally posted by Riwka
The Day that follows yom Schischi (day 6) is Shabbat Shmot (Exodus) 20:8-11 ,it starts in the evening , right after sunset.

Adam, he was no jew. G'd did not ask him to keep Shabbat.

G'd told the Jews to keep Shabbat Shmot (Exodus) 31:12-17

whereever we live. Vayikra (Leviticus) 23:3....

Good God, my patience has run out. Why are you attempting to give me these history and Talmudic lessons that have nothing to do with the claim I make and presented with the very fact that Adam and Eve did not know anything about the sabbath? My claim which way back there, is that no one can state that the seventh day of rest does in fact equate to friday/saturday, and can be thursday for all we know.

What difficulty are you having understanding that? Is it that you just want to impart some special knowledge you may have on Judaism and the Tanakh, that you think I don't?

I am not interested in what is supposed to be done or not done during Shabbat in this thread, so kindly focus.

I came across this site today when I was looking up the 10 commandments.

www.religioustolerance.org...

I will cut and past their definition of their take on the 4th commandment for your interest.

Again, the first sentence (Verse 8) is believed by many liberal theologians to have been the initial commandment. It was later expanded by another author.

This is another commandment that is violated by almost every Christian denomination. God gave a permanent command that the people rest every Saturday. There are numerous biblical passages to confirm this. Constantine, a Pagan Roman sun-worshiper, moved the day of rest to Sunday. The Christian church, at its Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE, ordered that religious observances be moved from Saturday to Sunday. The Seventh Day Adventists are the only major North American Christian denomination to continue to follow the 4th commandment.

Most Christian denominations have simply reinterpreted this commandment as referring to Sunday in place of Saturday.

I agree with the person who made the comment about sects. All Christianity can be regarded as this. And it is correct, normally people use this term in a derogative nature to make themselves feel more mainstream and secure. For instance, the Russian Orthodox church has claimed that any new religion (apart from RCC) are sects. Possibly these sects could post a threat to their hold on religious power?

Anyway, always enjoyable to read some SDA bashing and see people denying their ignorance!

Shmick writes: I came across this site today when I was looking up the 10 commandments.....

Hello, Shmick:

I'm sorry, I went to the website, read it, guess it's just a mind exercise. I try to keep an open mind in researching things of importance, which I do. But this was about as non-important as anything that I've ever read, and I actually wasted my time reading it. Whoever wrote this has a long way to go to understanding anything in the Scriptures, it's just the truth! It's almost funny.

Tiza

Posted by shmick25
Snip...
Anyway, always enjoyable to read some SDA bashing and see people denying their ignorance!

On an individual level, I love the SDAs.

However, I hate some of the false doctrines of the SDAs.

Would you like an example of a false SDA doctrine? This one is almost as bad as the Jehovah Witnesses belief that Christ secretly came back in the year 1914 -- and they are still teaching this.

Anyways, here is one SDA false doctrine called the Investigative Judgement:

Ellen G. White (EGW) prophetically corroborated William Miller's false teaching that Jesus would return in the year 1844. However, when Jesus did not return in 1844, EGW insisted that the prophecy was correct, but their interpretation of the prophecy was incorrect. Instead, EGW said that in 1844, Jesus entered the "holy of holies" in a temple in heaven and He began judging the people who were still alive on the earth. She also said that some of the people that were still alive in 1844 would live to see the return of Christ, but this too was a false prophecy.

Anyways, EGW said that in 1844, Jesus began judging the people who were still alive in the year 1844. All of the people that are born before 1844 have already been judged. There is no significance to the year 1844. However, if the SDAs abandoned this false doctrine, then Adventism would implode from within. The entire SDA denomination was begun with false doctrines -- then what can you expect about the rest of the teachings?

This may explain it further:

After Christ did not appear in 1844, most followers of William Miller disbanded, but a small group continued. One of those groups included Ellen G. White. They justified their continuing belief by adopting William Miller's new explanation about the coming of Jesus Christ into the Holy of Holies in 1844. This interpretation provided the foundational structure for what would later become the "Investigative Judgement" doctrine that was adopted by Ellen G. White, which is also not taught in the Scriptures.

Ellen G. White accepted the revelation about the "Shut Door." She taught that at the point when Jesus Christ entered into the Holy of Holies, no other persons could then be saved. The door of salvation was alledgedly shut and people could no longer obtain eternal life.

source

Anyways, let me clarify it one more time:

• I hate the SDA false doctrines.
  
  
  
• I love the SDAs.

Yx

YX>>I love the SDAs.


Hello,
Please explain "love" by the Scriptures. Which love are you professing? Are you saying the type of love that Yahushua the messiah had for his apostles? Please explain, if so.

There are many different definitions for love in the NT. I'm curious just because in the NT, it says that the wicked love their children, or love their own. How can a certain "love" make us different from that of the wicked?

Another thing. Can you explain why the followers of the messiah all kept the sabbath (7th day), including but not limited to, the followers in Paul's time frame and many centuries afterwards, how they could have been wrong?

Tiza

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Good God, my patience has run out. Why are you attempting to give me these history and Talmudic lessons that have nothing to do with the claim I make and presented with the very fact that Adam and Eve did not know anything about the sabbath? My claim which way back there, is that no one can state that the seventh day of rest does in fact equate to friday/saturday, and can be thursday for all we know.

What difficulty are you having understanding that? Is it that you just want to impart some special knowledge you may have on Judaism and the Tanakh, that you think I don't?

I am not interested in what is supposed to be done or not done during Shabbat in this thread, so kindly focus.

By what logic can you assert that Adam did not or could not have known which day the Sabbath was? Adam was in the presence of and spoke with the Creator. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden. The Creator did not rest because he was tired. He did so as an example. He did it for us.


"The human race never lost the septenary [seven day] sequence of week days and that the Sabbath of these latter times comes down to us from Adam, though the ages, without a single lapse."—Dr. Totten, professor of astronomy at Yale University.

"Seven has been the ancient and honored number among the nations of the earth. They have measured their time by weeks from the beginning. The origin of this was the Sabbath of God, as Moses has given the reasons for it in his writings."—Dr. Lyman Coleman.

"There has been no change in our calendar in past centuries that has affected in any way the cycle of the week."—James Robertson, Director American Ephemeris, Navy Department, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., March 12, 1932.

"It can be said with assurance that not a day has been lost since Creation, and all the calendar changes notwithstanding, there has been no break in the weekly cycle."—Dr. Frank Jeffries, Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and Research Director of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.


Adam kept the Sabbath and knew what day it was. The same can be said for Moses, Jesus, and the people who keep the Sabbath to this day. The Sabbath will be kept by everyone on Earth when the Kingdom comes. The cycle has been and will continue to be unbroken.

Steve

Posted by Tiza
Snip...

YX>>I love the SDAs.

Hello,
Please explain "love" by the Scriptures. Which love are you professing? Are you saying the type of love that Yahushua the messiah had for his apostles? Please explain, if so.

There are many different definitions for love in the NT. I'm curious just because in the NT, it says that the wicked love their children, or love their own. How can a certain "love" make us different from that of the wicked?

Tiza,

Thank you so kindly for giving me the opportunity to answer the question.

Love is the way we treat others. Jesus said, "A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another, as I have loved you." The bible also says that we will know the followers of Christ by their love, one for another.

I sort of like the way the Apostle Paul said it (paraphrased from memory): Though I have faith enough to move mountains, if I have no charity, then I am like chimes in the wind. Though I give my body to be burned and give all my money to the poor -- if I have no charity, it is for naught. Charity is patient, slow to anger and longsuffering.

Love is not simply an outward show. It must come from the heart.

Please recoginize that I have attacked false doctrines, but I have not and will not attack you or anyone else on a personal level.

Posted by Tiza
Another thing. Can you explain why the followers of the messiah all kept the sabbath (7th day), including but not limited to, the followers in Paul's time frame and many centuries afterwards, how they could have been wrong?

They were Jewish.

It's interesting to note that one apostle was teaching that the Gentiles must be circumcized in order to be a Christian, but the Apostle Paul had to straighten things out. He told us that we don't have to keep those Jewish laws -- none of them. He said that we are free to do everything, with the exception of eating things that were strangled (whatever that means).

Jesus also gave us a litany of things to refrain from and they include all 9 of the commandments. These are moral laws that we are required to keep. However, since we are now covered by the ministration of the Spirit instead of the ministration of death (the 10 commandments), we no longer have to keep the Old Testament Sabbath. You'll notice that Jesus never mentioned keeping the Sabbath day because it is not a part of the moral code of the New Testament.

I fully understand that you are chained to your conscience and you must obey the Sabbath, else your conscience convict you. But through grace, you can rise above your self-condemnation for not obeying the Old Testament Sabbath laws. Jesus is enough and you do not have to be a slave to self-imposed Sabbath rules.
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[edit on 2-2-2005 by Yxboom]

Yxboom

I would argue that adventists do not hold EGW's word above the Bible. The doctorine that you pointed out is hardly a barrier to salvation but simply an interpretation.

The entire SDA denomination was begun with false doctrines -- then what can you expect about the rest of the teachings?

So enlighten us. I am curious to know what evil things they preach.

Though I have faith enough to move mountains, if I have no charity, then I am like chimes in the wind.

Christ also speaks about knowing a tree by its fruits. SDAs have a United Nations recognised relief organisation known as ADRA, they have hospitals all over the world that have pioneered many areas in medicine. They also have health food companies. I would hardly call this sinister.

You'll notice that Jesus never mentioned keeping the Sabbath day because it is not a part of the moral code of the New Testament.

And did Jesus mention that it is ok NOT to keep the sabbath? It is not mentioned by Christ because the day was not changed. If it was, I think he would have made a point of telling us about it to avoid ambiguity. By the way, their is a verse in the NT that mentions that not one part of the law has been done away with.

Possibly it is you that are practicing false doctorines.

Originally posted by shmick25
Snip...
Possibly it is you that are practicing false doctorines.

Simply because I reject the Old Testament requirement to keep the Sabbath? The Old Testament also requires non-Sabbath keepers to be killed. I'm telling you -- the requirement to keep the Sabbath is abolished!!!

The SDAs are the only denomination that requires its members to honor the Sabbath day. Are you suggesting that all of Christianity is wrong, regarding going to church on Sunday? Are you suggesting that the SDAs are the only Christian sect to "have it right"? Yes, of course you are.

I love the Seventh-day Adventists and the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses -- but I disagree with many of their false doctrines. Many of them will go to heaven and many of them are good people. I never said that being a member of one of those organizations makes one bad. Many people are simply born into that lifestyle. Many of them are honest, hard working people who are simply trying to do the right thing.

Oh and BTW, worshiping God on Sunday is not the mark of the beast, as Adventists doctrine declares, not now and not ever.
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[edit on 3-2-2005 by Yxboom]

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
1 Thessalonians 5:21

Originally posted by Yxboom
-- the requirement to keep the Sabbath is abolished!!!

You have failed time after time to support this assertion. You have now resorted to using an argument from silence (Jesus didn't mention the 4th commandment specifically) and a straw man argument (SDA and JW are cults). The asssertion that 9 of the 10 commandments are in effect is absurd and completely untenable.


"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19



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Posted by sntx
Snip...
You have failed time after time to support this assertion.

Oh dear!!! But the same may be said of you. LOL

Posted by sntx
Snip...
You have now resorted to using an argument from silence (Jesus didn't mention the 4th commandment specifically).

Yep, Jesus did exactly that!!! He never told us that we have to obey the O.T. Sabbath laws, but He did tell us that we have to obey the 9 moral commandments.

Jesus was and is perfect and, when He ran His earthly ministry, He did not forget anything. Nay, nothing. That's why He only mentioned 9 out of the 10 commandments -- and that's why He did not tell us that we have to obey the Old Testament Sabbath. Remember: the Old Testament requires that non-Sabbath keepers must be killed!!! I'm telling you --> this requirement is abolished!!!

Posted by sntx
Snip...
You have now resorted to using a a straw man argument (SDA and JW are cults).

It is interesting that the Jehovah Witnesses and the Seventh-day Adventists both believe in the annialiation of the soul at death -- they both believe that we have no consciousness at death.

Jesus said:

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do you believe this?

Posted by sntx
Snip...
The asssertion that 9 of the 10 commandments are in effect is absurd and completely untenable.

We agree with the Lord Jesus when He told us that 9 of the 10 commandments are still in effect. It is the moral law.

Posted by sntx
Snip...
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Indeed, Jesus went on to fulfill the law and He did so perfectly, as no other mortal human being was able to do. We thank Him dearly for coming to this earth to do so.

Posted by sntx
Snip...
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19

Amen. We keep the moral law, as is described in the 9 commandments. We teach against murdering, stealing, bearing false witness, adultery, etc.

Bless you in your thoughts, sntx. Jesus is enough.
.

Originally posted by sntx

Originally posted by Yxboom
How do you keep the Sabbath day, per the scriptures?

I keep the Sabbath by ... I take my family to the zoo or to the park.

Then, according to your 7th Day Adventist Religion, you are causing
others to sin because you are forcing THEM to work on the Sabbath.
If you spend money and go to the zoo (or aquarium, or McDonalds,
or anywhere else) YOU are causing them to have to work and break
(what you call) God's rules.

it's a been awhile I haven't been on the ats been abroad, doing business. anyway this thing about the sabbath, I am a somewhat sabbathkeeper, and i could tell youi it's a burden, when business associates ask for a meeting, on saturday it's somewhat suprising to them I don't do lil or no business at all. But the answer to the question of the true observance on Saturday, It's a fact that the Saturday is the 7th day. Who wish to say otherwise are in great error, what I can also say Mosyt idf not all churches are in grave denominational doctrinal, spiritual error in misleading their flock with lies and propganda

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by sntx

Originally posted by Yxboom
How do you keep the Sabbath day, per the scriptures?

I keep the Sabbath by ... I take my family to the zoo or to the park.

Then, according to your 7th Day Adventist Religion, you are causing
others to sin because you are forcing THEM to work on the Sabbath.
If you spend money and go to the zoo (or aquarium, or McDonalds,
or anywhere else) YOU are causing them to have to work and break
(what you call) God's rules.

I am not affiliated with a religion. I am a Christian, led by the Holy Spirit and scripture. I do not accept responsibility for what others chose to do. To say that I force or would force anyone to work on the Sabbath is simply a lie. As a general rule I do not spend money until sundown on Saturday. I prepare for the Sabbath the day before so that I normally don't need to. People would be working wether I used their services or not. It would be a much different world if everyone kept the Sabbath. Someday they will, but for now I must live in the world as it is now.


Steve

Originally posted by sntx
By what logic can you assert that Adam did not or could not have known which day the Sabbath was? Adam was in the presence of and spoke with the Creator.

Read back and you will find that logic. On the other hand, by what logic can you tell me that they did know of the sabbath? the inclusion of Gen1:3 as a reference to how the sabbath came to be is not the answer either. To assume the order to commemorate that day came before the Exodus is nothing but fanciful guess work, especially given the heardened stance of being put to death if it is defiled. Ex.31:14.

But here, I will wrap this up for you. Adam and Eve aside, the sabbath day was already well known to the mix of the one god believing Egyptians and various slaves from other lands who fled Egypt under Moses. The knew of the ritual as it was Egyptian culture to have a sabbath, the differences being that the Egyptian gods rested after creation and passed the work onto the humans. Only the Egyptian elite had the day as a festive occassion, the masses still had to work. The Egyptian high priests were the only ones allowed into the temples for sacrifices, and even this Moses kept.

In short as I have said elsewhere, the creation in the OT is a retelling of the Egyptian creation myths reducing their 8 god-kings after machination to humans so they could come up with their one God. A concept you will be quite opposed to researching for yourself, of this I have no doubt. And believe me, the fight to keep that a big secret is in the interest of all of the three big religions.

The tree of life was in the midst of the garden. The Creator did not rest because he was tired. He did so as an example. He did it for us.

Did I say somewhere he was tired? The rest is how you wish to view it that is fine, however I disagree that he could have rested on

It can be said with assurance that not a day has been lost since Creation, and all the calendar changes notwithstanding, there has been no break in the weekly cycle."—Dr. Frank Jeffries, Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and Research Director of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.

This is interesting, but pure bunk, already addressed in part on my Giza thread, and since it addresses the 5,764 years does not belong on this thread. One need only look at the ages of the patriarchs to Noah to understand the nonsense behind this claim. The multiples of 5 and the addition of 7 years in every detail, whether age at the birth of the first child to the length of time lived after that, to their ages at death. Your Dr. Jeffries has a great deal of opposition to this claim, not the least of which is the incorrect yearly cycle and adjustment they used for 3400 years.


[edit on 2/3/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by sntx
I do not accept responsibility for what others chose to do. To say that I force or would force anyone to work on the Sabbath is simply a lie. As a general rule I do not spend money until sundown on Saturday. People would be working wether I used their services or not

That's a cop-out. You have to accept responsibility for your part in
causing people to 'sin' by working on the sabbath. You said that you
go to the zoo and the park etc. That's spending money BEFORE
sundown. To say that it's okay to use people working on the
Sabbath because 'they'd be working anyways' is like me saying
that it's okay for me to kill people because they are going to die
someday anyways. If you didn't use the services of people on
the Sabbath then they'd loose business and they'd be forced
to follow what you call God's rule about the Sabbath. For you
to continue to use their services on the day you say everyone
should be doing holy and family things makes you just as
'guilty' as they are. It doesn't matter if you accept responsibility,
you ARE in part responsible for the continuation of them working
on the Sabbath.

[edit on 2/3/2005 by FlyersFan]