The Wall and Deportations, Something we arent Asking and They aren't Addressing

a reply to: TheRedneck

Trump is only one man against the government, if you think he will magically cut through all the red tape to make this work efficiently then I have a bridge to sell you. Trump has experience making the government work for HIM, he doesn't have experience working within the government and making it work. That is a totally different monster.

Heck, with the divisiveness that Trump has created during his Presidency candidacy, I'd expect his wall project to actually go slower than most government projects because he is going to encounter resistance from not only the Democrats but also all the Republicans he made enemies of during the election months.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Nothing is going to happen overnight. If Trump wins, it will take a year at least to construct it, probably two more to finalize all the details. Deporting citizens will do no good without a wall of some kind in place. It's too much like herding cats.

1st priority: start construction on the wall and deport criminal elements.
2nd priority: drastically enhance border security while the wall is being built.
3rd priority: address illegal aliens already here.

A year? To construct the wall? The contracts won't even be in place in a year. The design phase not even started. The land would not have been acquired, the easements, licenses, and infrastructure for construction not acquired and recorded. Hell, the concrete and rebar not even available. Now throw in all of the stop work injunctions for all of the groups suing because the wall would screw up migratory patterns for who knows how many animals. Best case scenario, if Congress was to ever fund such a multi billion dollar undertaking, the wall completion date would be 2030 or later. You peeps have absolutely no idea how the gov operates.

Shorter version. Trump could serve two terms and ground would not have been broken by the end of the second, even in a best case scenario. The entire concept is silly.

a reply to: olaru12

Yes. Practical issues. Now, just like any "infrastructure" plan the Republican Party would pass, The Wall would be built with federal contracts of a different kind than we have been used to. The RP 2016 platform lays out what Republicans want to do with infrastructure labor-- repeal the Davis-Bacon law: the requirement for paying the local prevailing wages on public works projects for workers.

What would be next would be to get waivers for the Buy America Act (or do away with it) and not even have The Wall built with American goods. More open borders for goods, to build a wall.

originally posted by: thinline
You are a criminal, that feels safe enough to sign up for a government benefits, the laws are meaningless. Without laws, we don't have a society.

On the flip side, once you have a president who will enforce the laws, do you really think that the criminals will stay where they are registered? There will be millions of self-deportations.

The average criminal Mexican in America, does not have a high school degree and doesn't have the best command of English. How do you think that they are NOT taking more then they are "giving back" so you can switch the money from benefits to enforcement and actually save money, now and even more in the future.

For the most part, illegal immigrants are trying to fly below the radar. They won't even report a violent crime when they are the victim because they don't want the attention. They aren't out in force, applying for benefits when it could be the one thing that gets them caught. I do love how this is really a "brown people" thing, while people overstay visas from all over he world and set up shop. haven't heard of Trumpy targeting the Eastern European illegal populations which will still come rolling in because they're not Mexican.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Yes, a wall will be expensive. Yes, a wall will take time to build. Yes, there will be logistics problems that must be addressed. But Donald Trump does this for a living.

Donald Trump is the KING of his empire in business. He makes the decisions, gives the orders, strongarms any competition, uses every available means, regardless of the law, many times with questionable ethics, to get what he wants. And he fires those who get in his way.

But he wouldn't be the king (dictator) of the US. He would have to work within a structure that is VERY different from the business world and has a set of rules (laws) that are much more restrictive, for checks and balances. He wouldn't be the top dog. Without the power that he has in his building business, he would be impotent in running a country. Without the ability to get things done when he says, he would be lost.

As to the cost: what is the cost of doing nothing?

I'm not arguing against immigration reform. We need it badly. Now. I'm arguing against the wall Trump proposes.

And without some method of ensuring otherwise, undesirables will come in along with that majority.

Of course they will. We have undesirables here. But MOST immigrants are just looking for a better life, including a job, to take care of their families. That's what most US citizens are doing. Did you see the video I posted? $10 billion and at least 4 years. Without ANY complications at all.

Once again, we need to enforce the laws we have before going off on some project that is not feasible.

a reply to: TheRedneck

You understand congress would have to pass this and neither demoplicans or republicrats would.

And its a dumb idea.

And yeah trump is not a politician, he has no ability to garner support from the two parties for support.

Anyone who thinks the wall would have any chance of being built,...I have some magic beans for sale.

Where as Gary Johnsons immigration plan has been examined by think tanks, conservative pundits, and liberals alike. Has the support it would actually end illegals altogether.

Make them legal with backround checks and work visas, and come down hard on those who arent documented. The insentive of having working rights, a limit to how low they can be paid, and for us the taxes being collected.

This idea was dumb and purely symbolic demagoguery from the start.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
I can fix the illegal issue much cheaper. No wall needed.
Just make it illegal to hire them. Anybody employing someone without the proper paperwork is fined $10k.
Get caught twice, 5 years in prison.
Shouldn't take much to iron out the details.

Are You sure that You think this is a good idea? The reason I ask is this:

www.nationalreview.com...

www.nytimes.com...

money.cnn.com...

I think it is a great idea... Hilary in one cell and Trump right next door...


Edit: Per the links Mr. Trump has 1,256 Foreign Employees employed throughout His bankruptcied companies... Got some Wall $$$ just from Trump...

You also have to look at the Billions and Billions illegals have pumped into the system. You don't think they are going to collect all the taxes that have been subtracted from their jobs do You? All those who gave a fictitious Social Security Number..

I could see this going on and on and then some politico will think the lost tax $$ should be distributed to those who were taken advantage of by 'greedy businessmen' who will then get the $$$ from where they ALWAYS get the $$$ the middle cla$$...

Get rid of any politician going for re-election. PERIOD.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

The more I study the Trump phenomenon; the more I realize it's not about illegal immigration, the wall or "making America great again" ... it's about demonizing and scapegoating an entire class of people for an entirely other reason.

God I hope I'm just being paranoid but it scares the **** out of me.

The same thing happened to the blacks in the country for a long time. After the civil war there was a mass migration (The Great Migration) of blacks from the oppressive south northward and westward, because they were refused jobs whites could get, education whites could get, and other decent standards of living whites could get, such as good housing, due process of law, among other dehumanizing factors.

Many towns, cities, and even states in the north and west of the south outlawed the blacks just like the south had.

It's all happening over again, but this time from the immigration of Mexicans.

It seems white man has always been this way.

The Long Lasting Legacy of the Great Migration

I was up last night reading a good article in the Smithsonian about it last night.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

As I said, we'll have to wait and see if it's a false hope. Nothing said here will determine that.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I just read this article from Forbes about Trump's wall and it brings up a really good point on why Trump's plan to fund this construction project is unfeasible:
Here’s Why Donald Trump’s Plan to Build a Wall Is Bogus

Trump’s initial proposal as to how Mexico will be forced to ‘pay for the wall’ was unwise, unworkable, and displayed an astonishing lack of understanding of how global finance actually works, as I have written in detail before. His proposal, which relies on vague legal authority to force banks to cut off their customers’ access to move their own money around the world, assumes that American banks have the ability to cut off payments from any non-citizen or lawful visitor: they don’t. His plan, if implemented, would essentially shut off the ability for most Americans to send funds to anyone in the world because Trump’s proposal requires them to prove citizenship or legal status to their bank.

Banks today are not required to ask whether you are a citizen, legal resident, or lack proper legal status. Anyone can open an account with proper identification for taxes and proof of identity. Paypal can require a thumbprint ID to send money on a phone, but there is no requirement that banks see your birth certificate or passport. The majority of Americans do not own a valid U.S. passport and would struggle to proactively prove they have a right to send money overseas under Trump’s plan. And most people who send money overseas are U.S. citizens or are legally working, staying, or visiting the U.S.

That means that anyone in the U.S. wishing to send money anywhere in the world would have to establish lawful presence in the U.S. Thus, rather than just being targeted at Mexico, Trump’s plan would affect China, India, the Philippines, and Nigeria – countries with citizens who, combined, receive almost twice as much money from family members living in America than do all citizens of Mexico combined.

In fact, according to research by the Pew Center, more than 80% of all remittances made by people working in America go to countries other than Mexico. Has Trump considered the global ramifications of his proposal?

That sounds like the absolute worst thing that could happen is VERY fascist in nature. I don't want to prove to the government I'm a US citizen in order to send my money around the world. That is a huge invasion of privacy.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

You do have a point, but Trump also knows how to negotiate. We'll see how and if that makes a difference.

Immigration reform can never happen unless there is immigration enforcement. Unenforced laws are not really laws; they're just words on a piece of paper. Right now we have 'sanctuary cities' which are the very definition of unenforced laws; every single politician leading those cities should be prosecuted for treason. We have unenforced immigration laws. We literally have policies to not enforce laws!

Until we have immigration control, anything else is academic.

Those poor souls looking for a better life deserve better as well. Many die trying to cross the border illegally. Many more come across in virtual slavery. They work long hours for precious little pay, with no recourse because one complaint means deportation. They are easy prey for criminals for the same reason. They come for the promise of a better life, then find out they were lied to. That's not compassion. That is cruelty.

We are setting up people to be used as slaves, while allowing hardened criminals and drugs to harm our own people as well.

You may not like the wall, but I don't like hurting good people because of our ignorance of reality.

TheRedneck

a reply to: luthier

We did that once. Reagan struck a deal with Congress to legalize illegal immigrants in exchange for a tighter border. The legalization went through and the tighter border was never funded. The result was that we now have several times as many illegal immigrants as then.

Why do you think it will work this time?

TheRedneck

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Sorry. I quit listening to what someone said Trump said a long time ago. I think it was after I listened to Trump denounce David Duke's endorsement three separate times, and then heard people saying he obviously supported the guy.

I think Trump knows what Trump is thinking better than the pundits do.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck
What do you mean? Are you saying that Trump isn't saying that we will fund the wall by stealing remittance payments to Mexico anymore? I haven't seen any confirmation of him changing his tone on this.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: luthier

We did that once. Reagan struck a deal with Congress to legalize illegal immigrants in exchange for a tighter border. The legalization went through and the tighter border was never funded. The result was that we now have several times as many illegal immigrants as then.

Why do you think it will work this time?

TheRedneck

Because reagan was a charismatic guy who had some centrist support. It was a totally different time before the serious division between two parties. I am sure you have read about repubs and dems having a scotch together after work in that era.

Republicans dont really support trump, democrats dont at all. Thats because of his demagoguery.

Its far past expensive and a logistical nightmare.

And it wont work anyway. Look at the elaborate tunnels already used. Greaseing palms etc.

The way to go is work visas. Get rid of quotas and let the market decide. Fine and jail employers who cant verify employee's.

I was a carpenter in Texas for a while so I understand the issue but if you even the pay scale the choice of who to hire becomes a whole different situation. If there isnt enough americans who are carpenters then the immigrant labour makes up the difference.

America needs to invest in infrastructure. Why not offer non-offending illegals on welfare or working for cash off the books, the chance to work on infrastructure projects to earn a working visa? Tens of thousands of them could work on building the wall, for example, or roads, bridges, ...

originally posted by: UKTruth
America needs to invest in infrastructure. Why not offer non-offending illegals on welfare or working for cash off the books, the chance to work on infrastructure projects to earn a working visa? Tens of thousands of them could work on building the wall, for example, or roads, bridges, ...

It's already happening. As I drive around the American SW there are road improvement projects everywhere. The crews are predominately Hispanic. The contractors don't verify citizenship, work visas, etc...

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: UKTruth
America needs to invest in infrastructure. Why not offer non-offending illegals on welfare or working for cash off the books, the chance to work on infrastructure projects to earn a working visa? Tens of thousands of them could work on building the wall, for example, or roads, bridges, ...

It's already happening. As I drive around the American SW there are road improvement projects everywhere. The crews are predominately Hispanic. The contractors don't verify citizenship, work visas, etc...

Formalise it then as a way of bringing people out of the shadows and making illegals earn any benefits they get.

a reply to: UKTruth

Something like this:

www.cato.org...

www.cnn.com...