The true cost of Low Wages. Who is really to blame.

ou know those people that seem to just rise to the top? Want to know what they do different? It's not what they know or who they know, it's how they act. They're the people who put off lunch for 15 minutes to finish a job occasionally, or work an extra 15 minutes just because the job needs doing. They're the people who do their job and sometimes have to cover for the next guy too, because they know (and care) how important that job is. That gets noticed. Soon no one cares if they need to leave 30 minutes early or take an extra 5 minutes on lunch, because they almost never do it. Then the promotions start coming. Next thing you know, they're getting invited to lunch with the owner.

a reply to: TheRedneck

This hasn't been my experience, mostly. I think in a small business this maybe more true, but in a corporate climate, the more you do the more you get. I remember tearing down a pizza oven and rebuilding it at a pizza hut. I was a "cook" and super-duper motivated. Want to now what the manager said after I gave up a Friday night to do the rebuild? "People like you are going to make me go far here". I find if I work 15 minutes into my lunch, I get a cold lunch. Just what I have seen.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
Hmm... probably not wise to base a world view on something you "heard once." Here's the flaw in your reasoning: I'm receiving a product from any company I'm doing business with (not counting the nation's new fling with asinine federal mandates.) I am voluntarily exchanging goods for services. What am I getting from the poor? Anything tangible there?

Customers.

originally posted by: wantsome
Why should these CEO's be aloud to exploit foreign slave labor at the cost of the average American? If they want to exploit a foreign work force maybe they should go live there. Designed in America built by slave labor.

Why shouldn't they? It's beneficial for their company. Do you want the government to step in and start denying private industry the right to make business decisions that make their company more profitable?

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Person A manages to get through school with passing grades. He then gets a job in an entry level, making minimum wage. He works hard at the job, but he also likes to have fun... maybe a party on the weekend or a night out during the week. He can afford it, but he can't afford much else. He's also busy working and having fun, too busy to worry about filling out applications or going on to college or learning a trade. As time goes on, he gets a raise here or there, but since his mind often wanders, he never makes a huge splash at work. 20 years later, he's about where he started.

Person B tries to get good grades in school. When he gets out of school, he starts thinking about his future. He decides to learn a trade while he's working alongside person A. So instead of eating out twice a week or having a night out on the town, he starts learning a trade. After a few years, during which time person A decides he's crazy for working so hard and stops speaking to him, person B gets his certification and starts filling out applications. A year later he's got a better job, making 50% more than person A and keeps getting raises from there.

Person C can only work part time beside person A because he went on to college. He's spending every waking moment studying and going to class, living like a pauper to get by. He has to wait 4 years or more before he can get a better job, but when he does he's making 3 times what person A is making. Now he can rest a bit and enjoy his new job. He gets good raises every year, paid vacations, and a nice office.

Then you have Person D who lives in a poor area of the country. Has 12 years of schooling, multiple degrees, and spends all their time out of school or work studying to learn even more skills. No going out, no partying, no extravagant lifestyle... just work and study. The claim is that work and study pays off, but I've never seen that... I'm pretty sure it's a myth people tell themselves as motivation to put effort into the void.

They've never made more than minimum wage in their life because companies simply have no desire to pay more. If you need a job you're going to accept the minimum. That's the situation I'm in. I've worked for companies and gotten minimum. I've done freelancing too, my last freelancing job I charged $40/hour and had a contract saying as much, at the end of it my employer paid me minimum wage, and said if I really wanted the rest I could take him to court. After talking to a lawyer I was told not to pursue it. I would have won the case but in doing so I would have spent most of what I would get on court costs/lawyer fees, and I would have cost myself future work by getting the reputation of suing the people who hire me.

Investment in yourself is purely so you can do the jobs you want to do. What you're actually paid is completely separate to what you know. Person A, B, and C are the same people in your example... the only difference is that B and C had higher ups give them a shot while A never got the opportunity.

originally posted by: atrollstalker
a reply to: Zanti Misfit

If that happened, a loaf of bread would cost $10,000 and soda machines would have to go out of business.

How do you Figure that ? If anything , it would make Goods Cheaper considering Companies would be seeing Increased Profits from Higher Sales to the People who could Afford their Products .

a reply to: seasonal

You do have a point about businesses squeezing wages. I just remember before that and see what caused it. If there were more jobs than there were good people to fill them, wages would go back up. The government (along with the quasi-governmental financial mega-corporations) is supposed to be providing a climate conducive to competition and industry growth. It has failed miserably and we are paying for that failure.

Less good jobs = less effort from employers to keep labor.

More good jobs = more effort from employers to keep labor.

The economy worked good back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. So when I'm thinking about where we messed up, I look to the differences between now and then. I want to reverse the course we're on to get back to what worked, then we can try to improve from that on a new course.

It's like a guy I know who once brought me a CCTV system to fix. The CRT controller board had overheated and burned out some components. I could have fixed it by looking at how it was when it worked (the spec sheets / schematics) but he had decided to fix it himself without that information. He used a roll of acid-core solder and a solder gun to just fill in the hole in the board with a glob of solder. It didn't have a hole when he got through, but it was useless too.

We need to look at how the economy worked when it worked in order to fix it. Filling in holes without thinking about the consequences won't work.



I personally like temp jobs. I worked as a temp for a while in drafting. I would take a job, make more than the permanent employees but without benefits, finish it, take a few weeks off, and go again. Yeah, my agency made more than I did, but I loved the freedom I had. I guess it's a personal choice kind of thing.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: seasonal
I am a tradesman and I see what a temp labor pool is. It's disposable, it's Pissed off, poor, no car, exhausted from working 2-3 jobs, and they make products they can't afford, just like Ford auto employees before the wages were raised to $5 a day. The temps know they are working for a multi billion $ company and, right or wrong, they resent the fact they can work for years as a temp, but will not be hired. I see their point.

Here's a story about a friend of mine. He graduated from a college 3 years ago with an art degree and in his final year of school he was given a job in the schools marketing department. He's still there. They've never hired him full time, in fact illegally they've left him counted as a student employee so that the school doesn't pay his wage, a federal grant does. Because of his position he makes below minimum wage, gets no employment perks, and has no employment protection. He has been working for this school for 2 years now where they know he is not a student, they just don't have money in the budget to hire him.

For his part he's thankful to have a job at all, but everyone who knows him resents the situation, including his coworkers. But he's going to essentially remain a temp forever.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
You know those people that seem to just rise to the top? Want to know what they do different? It's not what they know or who they know, it's how they act. They're the people who put off lunch for 15 minutes to finish a job occasionally, or work an extra 15 minutes just because the job needs doing. They're the people who do their job and sometimes have to cover for the next guy too, because they know (and care) how important that job is. That gets noticed. Soon no one cares if they need to leave 30 minutes early or take an extra 5 minutes on lunch, because they almost never do it. Then the promotions start coming. Next thing you know, they're getting invited to lunch with the owner.

The wealthiest person I know does the exact opposite of all of that. He makes mid 6 figures to do a job he doesn't even know how to do (seriously, I trained him to do it, and regularly teach him new aspects of it) and he has a policy of "never doing free work". If it's time for his lunch break he's taking it. I have sat in meetings with this guy, and the second it hits noon he gets up, walks out of the meeting, and goes out for lunch. He's the type who expects overtime for staying 5 minutes late to finish a phone call. If you need help he'll help, but you better have a way to compensate him for his time.

Literally the exact opposite of the attitude you are saying is what gets you ahead in life.

The reality is, attitude doesn't matter. The only things that matter when it comes to being paid well are who you know, and how good you are at negotiations.

a reply to: seasonal

There are places like that. I don't usually work there long. I want to help my boss succeed, but I expect him to drag me up with him. If I find out that isn't going to happen, it's time to put out resumes.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Aazadan

That's ridiculous. Most of the wealthy individuals in this country work their ass off to get to the position. I don't know what kind of job he has, but most people who make mid 6 and higher are workaholic powerhouses.

a reply to: TheRedneck
so... let's see, the government in all their wisdom decides to make the single moms, who were filling a need by staying home and caring for their kids, go out and find a job, any job, thus providing a workforce willing to work those low paying jobs... and in return pay more taxmoney to them to pay for the childcare along with the additional cost associated with them working. the people aren't really making enough to pay much more than the cost associated with them working, so the gov't ends up paying out more...

see how it works??

You know those people that seem to just rise to the top? Want to know what they do different? It's not what they know or who they know, it's how they act. They're the people who put off lunch for 15 minutes to finish a job occasionally, or work an extra 15 minutes just because the job needs doing. They're the people who do their job and sometimes have to cover for the next guy too, because they know (and care) how important that job is. That gets noticed. Soon no one cares if they need to leave 30 minutes early or take an extra 5 minutes on lunch, because they almost never do it. Then the promotions start coming. Next thing you know, they're getting invited to lunch with the owner.

ya, I used to think that, worked my ass off, managed to be get trained in almost every area, was one of the last ones to leave every night, even did this after I was hurt and limping around...
guess what...
I found out the new guy that they just hired, started at over a dollar an hour more than me... more than the person I was working for even, even though she had been working for the company since it's beginning and was probably one of the best printers in the place. well that guy worked for about a month maybe, then slipped on the ice one morning outside of the shop and "hurt his back" (rumour has it he found out just how much the state was taking out for child support) and began drawing workman's comp.... only he wasn't hurting bad enough to be seen working as an auto mechanic under the table.
so, well, me, na, they couldn't even pay me enough to get the medical problem which was probably a result of me working there and I ended up having to quit because of it.

so sorry, don't buy the work hard and you will be rewarded bit!
and, we were living in upstate ny, you'd be amazed at the number of lawmakers who had rental properties there.... for low income people. they knew a good thing when they saw it! in a nearby city the newspaper published a story about one of the low income apartment complexes there. the gov't was paying $1000 for these rat infested, leaking piped, apartments for the poor. only at the time, they were refusing people any kind of aid unless their income was less than $9 an hour. if it was just my husband working, our income was around 10-11 an hour... we had moved out of the hud housing places because they were too much for us and at that time, I couldn't find a job that would pay for the childcare for the young ones. I had to wait till they got older and could take care of themselves...
and well a few years after than happened I got hurt ended up quitting and we were back to square one.
and I was eating one meal every other day to ensure the kids could eat.

they may have closed that gap, but I doubt it, it's what gives them the reason to keep expanding the handouts. but, it also gives a bit of momentum to the inflation rate so that gap just keeps going up to higher and higher income brackets.

a reply to: Aazadan

See my responce to seasonal above.

News flash: they's butt holes in this world. Better to just stay away from them. If you take them on, they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

From my reading WWII is what gave us the windfall of easy living/jobs for 30ish years post. We gave that away through horrible trade agreements and looks like we, as a country, will continue to do this. This helps multi-corps and the 1% to get, you guessed it, richer.

We may have a post WWIII economic boom if it is only a European/Asian theater war. Hope we can avoid this all together.

You would not enjoy the temp factory experience in 2016. $9 an hour makes mac and cheese seem like a T-bone, and I'm not kidding. And full time employees make $20 plus bene's.

I guess it boils down to sharing productivity gain with workers/employees. But for now it is being funneled to the top. This will be solved, one way or the other.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Aazadan

That's ridiculous. Most of the wealthy individuals in this country work their ass off to get to the position. I don't know what kind of job he has, but most people who make mid 6 and higher are workaholic powerhouses.

He makes interactive training videos/simulations explaining to others in his company how to use their products. He works from home 3 days a week and has never put in a single second of time over 40 hours a week. Well, that's what he does in theory. In practice he's outsourced his job for less money to other people that know how to do it because he doesn't actually have the technical skills to make the training videos and instead he "manages" the process.

a reply to: dawnstar

It's also a two-way street. If you get shafted, get out; that's not where you want to be.

When I drove a truck, I worked for 8 different companies in 8 years, one of them twice (they called me after I left with their hat in their hand). My pay went from survival wages to pretty good coin. Each time it happened the same way: they would pull something I wouldn't accept; I would smile like it was no big deal; I would get a new job lined up; I would clean out my truck on the next home time; I would call them up and ask where they wanted me to deliver their truck, because I didn't drive for them any more. I got more respect from the companies as time went on, because I had the reputation of not just being a good driver, but being one that wouldn't put up with BS.

Just don't go all mad and try to hurt the people that tried to hurt you. Revenge will always backfire, and it's hard to find a job unless you have a job. Just get away as soon as you can.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Aazadan

See my responce to seasonal above.

News flash: they's butt holes in this world. Better to just stay away from them. If you take them on, they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

TheRedneck

There are, but you have to work with them. We don't have the jobs situation in this country that someone who is being exploited by an employer rather than getting a fair wage is free to walk away and find a job elsewhere.

In my town it's worse than most. There is one and only one job skill in my town that's worth anything and that's being able to pass a drug test. The absolute best jobs in my town are at Walmart (seriously, people sit on waiting lists for years to get a job with them) and our unemployment rate is out of the world.

To me, that's the real America because that's what I've lived for several years now. If you don't put up with the jerks and allow them to screw you over, you're going to be unemployed and with a reputation that prevents you from getting a new job.

That's why my town is in such dire straits that the main street has 2 title loan vendors and a pawn shop on every block and our only dedicated grocery store has a payday loan vendor built right into the building.

a reply to: seasonal

Oh, I see the disconnect. I was talking a temp agency (as in for trades) and you are talking about a temp factory agency.

I talked to one of those once, long ago. I finished the interview, thanked them, walked outside, and almost hurt myself laughing.

Never been back. I don't need to work so I can starve.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Aazadan

That is only true as long as you believe it is.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Aazadan

That is only true as long as you believe it is.

TheRedneck

Oppressive small towns are like that. That unfortunately is where I'm forced to live if I wish to finish my schooling without student loan debt. The bigger cities are better because they have a bit more opportunity, but half the country doesn't live in the big cities. They live in small towns like mine that have gone from 12,000 to 8,000 residents (+4,000 students) in the past 10 years due to government corruption, rampant crime, and a lack of opportunity.

When people spend years trying to get positions as Walmart greeters because it's one of the best jobs in town, do you really think anyone is getting a fair shake at employment?

a reply to: atrollstalker

A greedy person wants $15.00 per hour for flipping hamburgers or stuffing grocery bags which as we see in life, requires very little intelligence or education.

The fact you are calling someone who wants a livable wage greedy and not the banks monopolising money and debt, or the CEO's hiking their own pay. Shows how unenlightened you are. Please voice your own opinion of course, just don't ask me to take you seriously if you believe the above to be true.

93% increase for CEO' Types. 24% Decrease for Min wage. Whose greedy? The person who wants to get by without welfare or the person who wants another sports car and condo.

a reply to: seasonal

Thought I might write this for you. I've lived through it.

During the Great Depression, my Grandfather (a machinist) was only working at the most 20 hours a week. Once WW2 started, he moved to Calif and started working for Lockheed, full employment, full benefits. The problem is, that was then; America had to increase production for every war related good pronto. Money was being put into the economy, which benefited greatly post-war (houses being built, and all the manufacturing to give Americans the goods they now wanted and could afford to buy to fill those houses and productive lives).

We no longer rapidly turn out fleets of aircraft for war. Building military aircraft today is a different technique than the old WW2 pix. We no longer turn out fleets of tanks, etc, as we once had to. This time, starting a war wouldn't turn around an economy. Even warfare is different these days.

There was rabid inflation in the 1970s. To stop this inflation, many voters turned to Ronald Reagan with his promise to stop it. What he didn't tell them is how it would be done, through unemployment, to drive wages downward. Workers would be laid off, then re-hired at lower wages (or outright volunteering to lower wages to "save their jobs"), as companies said they were in financial trouble and workers should chip in and help. Union busting became a way of life; no longer would workers be even able to have a say in wages or working conditions.

At the same time the economy was being tamed, the Reagan era made it easier for monopolies to form and for corporate executives to shelter money. The Reagan era brought in supply side (trickle down, voo doo, etc) economics, which helped funnel any new profits (as the economy came back from fighting inflation) upward to the owners but not to workers.

Even though RR had the mid-1980s immigration reform, corporations were not held accountable, and, trust me, illegal hiring became profitable and was winked at. (The RR "low-intensity conflicts" in Central America and elsewhere sent many extra people to America.) Wages could be kept low still.

The 1990s brought in the tech bubble, but also by the latter half one started to see the payday loans etc. come into normal use. As citizens were turned into consumers, with wages forced to stagnate, middle America needed to increase their debt to continue their lifestyle. And the poor would get poorer, until today people even take out car title loans, something unheard of until recent times (as in, one would have to be soooo bad off, a low life, to even think about getting such a loan, but they're common today).

Enter the 2000s, and George W. Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. GWB told (former) pres of Argentina, Kirchner, that war is good for an economy! Poor George. He didn't understand that we weren't going to bring back that good ol' war production again. No govt money to pump into war production which went to workers and communities. And this time, George put the cost of the war on credit, hiding it from the public. Good read. And that didn't include cost of Veteran care (no, sir, not with a "cakewalk" of a war).

So, tax cuts for the rich, no paydown of this war, unlike other wars. Well, and I haven't even gotten into the effects of offshoring manufacturing and insourcing cheap labor. ..... And there are some right wing extremists who believe that labor (and capital) should be allowed to cross borders pretty much unhindered (one third-party candidate's platform even advocates for free flow of labor across borders!--personally, don't think he has even read what his party really is all about, or else he's hiding it to get votes.)

Sorry this has been a lengthy post. Of course, it no way can include other things that have happened along the way, But, then, the problem is quite huge.

As a former business owner, I can tell you that each profession or job description has a range of pay associated with that job. The potential employee knows that going in. If I need something, that doesn't justify someone giving it to me. People for instance who work in the fast food industry know that it is an entry level position and was never intended to make it your life's work. But somehow, someone put a bug in their ear and suddenly they become worth $15 an hour? I don't think so. I didn't exactly love going to college, but I also realized what my options would be out on the street just being another uneducated, untrained person looking for a job.

What will happen is automation can and will replace these no skill jobs and then where will all these people be? Maybe they should have paid attention in school instead of playing video games, and hanging with their friends It's a tough world out there and there is no free lunch. The result you receive is dependant on the effort you put in to it.

what are the burger flippers earning now?? 8?? 9?? less than that?????

only reason I ask is because I haven't really been keeping up with the minimum wage of late, there may have been a small increase.
what's the federal cut off for food stamps for an average family of three?

in case anyone is too lazy to look, it seems to be around $2,177 a month, or about $26,100 a year, or at least it was in 2015...

www.cbpp.org...

so, the gov't is basically saying that you need to earn around 13 an hour, so a minimum wage earner would have to work close to two full time jobs in order to feed their small family. maybe it's a two parent family, so they both can have a full time job.. okay, but then there's a good chance that you will have to pay for child care for the little one so it still ends up being short. since there are many one parent families out there, and the gov't is saying it requires $13 an hour to feed that family, wouldn't it make sense to have a minimum wage that would pay that $13 an hour?