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A Gipsy secret
page: 3share:
a reply to: TerryDon79
It wasn't really his opinion it was still a statement, Its your opinion it was his opinion.. I referenced the page, it's 57.. Buy the book it's a good read from a dead mason, well most of the stories are from dead masons.. Can't see why this is different than the others?
It wasn't really his opinion it was still a statement, Its your opinion it was his opinion.. I referenced the page, it's 57.. Buy the book it's a good read from a dead mason, well most of the stories are from dead masons.. Can't see why this is different than the others?
edit on 2016811 by
tikbalang because: (no reason given)
Some interesting parts on this legend i have not heard before but other things that has connections to this legends i have, for example in India there
are few temples dedicated to sun worship and they are located in areas where Rhoma are said to come from in their Indian time period, these temples
have symbolism that are very much connected to Rhoma, their legends include Rhoma in different ways, other interesting connections about music and its
secrects that is also connected to some of these temples, also obviously craftmanship of jewels etc that also happen to be very much connected to
these temples..
btw did yall knew how in 1300 Europe, specially in Balkan areas, declared Rhoma as slaves and they treated em like such for some 500 years, until 1850 something they demolished that slavery, although Catholic church wouldnt want to let go of Rhoma slaves they holded, witch were blenty and that 90 years later Catholic church blessed nazies to commit genocide on em, or that some countries practised nazies sick genetic mutilations till 1980 on Rhoma children or even later, "oh but they are just thieves and such"....
There are pages after pages of history of Europeans brutality and plain barbarism towards Rhoma that has left deep wounds and marks on even todays ppl. What we can read from earliest history of Rhoma entering Europe, they were not poor ppl or useless ppl, they even knew tech that Europeans didnt at times, i know many ppl love to side with simple minded theories about Rhoma insteed see the connections that points obvious systematic persecution of nearly thousand of years by European countries, even destroying of Rhomas heritages and tweaking it ways that serve this simple minded programming.
btw did yall knew how in 1300 Europe, specially in Balkan areas, declared Rhoma as slaves and they treated em like such for some 500 years, until 1850 something they demolished that slavery, although Catholic church wouldnt want to let go of Rhoma slaves they holded, witch were blenty and that 90 years later Catholic church blessed nazies to commit genocide on em, or that some countries practised nazies sick genetic mutilations till 1980 on Rhoma children or even later, "oh but they are just thieves and such"....
There are pages after pages of history of Europeans brutality and plain barbarism towards Rhoma that has left deep wounds and marks on even todays ppl. What we can read from earliest history of Rhoma entering Europe, they were not poor ppl or useless ppl, they even knew tech that Europeans didnt at times, i know many ppl love to side with simple minded theories about Rhoma insteed see the connections that points obvious systematic persecution of nearly thousand of years by European countries, even destroying of Rhomas heritages and tweaking it ways that serve this simple minded programming.
a reply to: redhorse
Il say that Rhoma came from India to Europe but they travelled to India from somewhere before that, dna studies doesnt tell us 100% proof of Rhomas origins, just points out where they were in specific time and usually they leave out all other connections in RHomas dna entirely, they doesnt fit their needed theories so no need to know right.. Other than that, linguistic connection is there but there is other languages in Rhomanes too with high conenrations, its not that uncommon to ppl learn different languages if they live in different countries longer periods.. Cultures has some similarties, at least on some Rhoma tribes but other Rhoma tribes does not have much at all if any Indian customs or cultural connections, also their spiritual knowledge seems to be different from believing in many Gods or deities, there is common understanding between many Rhoma tribes of One God that is Devael, Devla, Del, many names but One God.. In advance i feel like need to say, excuse me but i dont eat official theories that much, at least i do not swallow them blindly, specially after i have learned so much been altered of generally of human history.
Il say that Rhoma came from India to Europe but they travelled to India from somewhere before that, dna studies doesnt tell us 100% proof of Rhomas origins, just points out where they were in specific time and usually they leave out all other connections in RHomas dna entirely, they doesnt fit their needed theories so no need to know right.. Other than that, linguistic connection is there but there is other languages in Rhomanes too with high conenrations, its not that uncommon to ppl learn different languages if they live in different countries longer periods.. Cultures has some similarties, at least on some Rhoma tribes but other Rhoma tribes does not have much at all if any Indian customs or cultural connections, also their spiritual knowledge seems to be different from believing in many Gods or deities, there is common understanding between many Rhoma tribes of One God that is Devael, Devla, Del, many names but One God.. In advance i feel like need to say, excuse me but i dont eat official theories that much, at least i do not swallow them blindly, specially after i have learned so much been altered of generally of human history.
originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: redhorse
Yes they are from India, doesn't mean the name is
Ok then, I clearly don't understand your post.
Are you or are you not implying that "Gypsies" bring certain skills and legends from Egyptian origins and apparently this is important to masons some how?
If there is a disconnect between what they are called (Gypsy=From Egypt) and the genuine origins of their culture isn't that perception about those cultural skills (and associated knowledge and mystical secrets) patently incorrect? For example, if they are from India Thoth has no cultural significance to them, different religion, different culture, different belief system.
Please explain.
a reply to: redhorse
Three groups, Sinti, Romani and Kale = Under the same name Gypsy, they dont share much except being from India..
Sinti - Wikipedia
Romani - WIkipedia
Kale - Wikipedia
Persian book of Kings
Encyclopedia
And in the end you have Manly. P Hall.. Its the timeline thats the problem.. Stories you can change, craftmanship is always there as a thorn...
Three groups, Sinti, Romani and Kale = Under the same name Gypsy, they dont share much except being from India..
Sinti - Wikipedia
Romani - WIkipedia
Kale - Wikipedia
Linguistic evidence suggests that Gypsies left India in the tenth or eleventh century AD., migrating west to Iran (Persia) and the Arabian Peninsula, with some splitting off to the north to Central Asia (although some argue that the Central Asian group arrived in an earlier migration). Some moved westward to Byzantium and the Transcaucasus, reaching Europe by around 1250. The Seljuk and Ottoman expansions caused mass migrations, and by the fifteenth century Roma lived throughout Europe
Persian Book of Kings
About the year 420BCE, a wise and beneficent prince realized that his poor subjects were pining away for lack of amusements. He sought a means of reviving their spirits. He sent a diplomatic mission to the Maharajah of India and begged him to choose among his subjects and send to him in Persia persons capable by their talents of alleviating the burden of existence and able to spread a charm over the monotomy of work. Behram Gour soon assembled twelve thousand itinerant minstrels, men and women, assigned lands to them, supplying them with corn and livestock in order that they should have the wherewithal to live in certain areas which he would designate; and so be able to amuse his people at no cost.
Persian book of Kings
Encyclopedia
And in the end you have Manly. P Hall.. Its the timeline thats the problem.. Stories you can change, craftmanship is always there as a thorn...
a reply to: romilo
What i have found, is that the Kingdoms had guilds. The Gypsies were extremely advanced in metallurgy, chemistry, medicine and the locals couldnt compete, so they said its "Magic". Being nomadic didnt help their cause..
In some areas the gypsies swapped their names and hid their culture. " Im not gonna say which ".
The Vatican invited 7000 roma last year; Where the Pope declared, "Your children have the right to go to school, do not prevent them from doing so!"
I found a lot of the heritage, i found something amazing.. And terrible things, i cant share them.. I have so much hope for Roma, and they way is through The Church.. But they just have to follow the simple rules and laws without excuses..
What i have found, is that the Kingdoms had guilds. The Gypsies were extremely advanced in metallurgy, chemistry, medicine and the locals couldnt compete, so they said its "Magic". Being nomadic didnt help their cause..
In some areas the gypsies swapped their names and hid their culture. " Im not gonna say which ".
The Vatican invited 7000 roma last year; Where the Pope declared, "Your children have the right to go to school, do not prevent them from doing so!"
I found a lot of the heritage, i found something amazing.. And terrible things, i cant share them.. I have so much hope for Roma, and they way is through The Church.. But they just have to follow the simple rules and laws without excuses..
a reply to: tikbalang
This page have some interesting info about how badly Rhomas talents were needed those times: www.reocities.com...
"Origins of Romanian Slavery
Roma, who had at first established a loose working relationship with the feudal landlords, became associated with particular estates and by the early1300s were being included in parcels of property given by one owner to another and to the monasteries; the earliest documentation refers to such tributes being made to monasteries before 1350 (Hancock, 1987:11-12), while Crowe argues for an even earlier date: "By the thirteenth century, [Roma] began to be enslaved for a variety of economic, military, social and possibly racial reasons" (1991:61). The condition of slavery so defined, however, emerged later, out of the increasingly stringent measures taken by the landowners, the court and the monasteries to prevent their Romani labor force from leaving the principalities, as they were beginning to do in response to the ever more burdensome demands upon their skills, and from the shift of their "limited fiscal dependency upon the Romanian princes" to an "unlimited personal dependency on the big landlords of the country, the monasteries and the boyars" (Gheorghe, 1983:23). The Code of Basil the Wolf of Moldavia, dated 1654, contained references to the treatment of slaves, including the death penalty in the case of the rape of a white woman by a Rom (the same offense committed by a non-Rom warranted no punishment, according to the same Code). "
That Vatican invitation does not make much sense to me or that Pope`s remark either but perhaps hundreds of thousands Rhoma families living in ghettoes does apppreciete that remark.. Like they dont know how bad their situation is and near impossible to get out of it.. - I coulda say back to Vatican that you guys didnt have right to bless nazies to commit genocide on Rhomas and others during ww2, they deserved way better, specially after just 80years of "freedom" of slavery that was started by em.
If they truelly care about Rhoma, they could do whole allot of better with what already is supposedly directed towards of helping out Rhoma to integrade and join the general communities, finally... Yet we can read about how bad those resources get directed in the wrong pockets and nothing really gets done.
This page have some interesting info about how badly Rhomas talents were needed those times: www.reocities.com...
"Origins of Romanian Slavery
Roma, who had at first established a loose working relationship with the feudal landlords, became associated with particular estates and by the early1300s were being included in parcels of property given by one owner to another and to the monasteries; the earliest documentation refers to such tributes being made to monasteries before 1350 (Hancock, 1987:11-12), while Crowe argues for an even earlier date: "By the thirteenth century, [Roma] began to be enslaved for a variety of economic, military, social and possibly racial reasons" (1991:61). The condition of slavery so defined, however, emerged later, out of the increasingly stringent measures taken by the landowners, the court and the monasteries to prevent their Romani labor force from leaving the principalities, as they were beginning to do in response to the ever more burdensome demands upon their skills, and from the shift of their "limited fiscal dependency upon the Romanian princes" to an "unlimited personal dependency on the big landlords of the country, the monasteries and the boyars" (Gheorghe, 1983:23). The Code of Basil the Wolf of Moldavia, dated 1654, contained references to the treatment of slaves, including the death penalty in the case of the rape of a white woman by a Rom (the same offense committed by a non-Rom warranted no punishment, according to the same Code). "
That Vatican invitation does not make much sense to me or that Pope`s remark either but perhaps hundreds of thousands Rhoma families living in ghettoes does apppreciete that remark.. Like they dont know how bad their situation is and near impossible to get out of it.. - I coulda say back to Vatican that you guys didnt have right to bless nazies to commit genocide on Rhomas and others during ww2, they deserved way better, specially after just 80years of "freedom" of slavery that was started by em.
If they truelly care about Rhoma, they could do whole allot of better with what already is supposedly directed towards of helping out Rhoma to integrade and join the general communities, finally... Yet we can read about how bad those resources get directed in the wrong pockets and nothing really gets done.
a reply to: tikbalang
I had gypsie friends in Spain. Still do, though I guess I will see them next life as they are hide and seek world champs...lol
The ones in Spain claim to be from India. Left when they still had their own religion so as to practice it, lost it over the ages by imposition of dominant cultures.
They do keep Gypsy law. Which is complex and strange.
Their communities are largely transient, though Spain has had some progress in making stable life more appealing. They do have actual neighborhoods now, with some reaching great wealth and prosperity. Illegal activities still prevail as to them there is only Gypsy law.
Much of the eastern Gypsies from Romania are as mentioned earlier, crap.
They arent very welcome in Spain by the native gypsies.
There are the ones who live by the code and are still not terrible. They work selling odds and ends but generally are very lazy. The women are the most hard working, but even then, lack any ambition.
Prostitution is reserved for the women who divorse or are left by their men. Virginity is sacred to them and a wife must be loyal, though men can be excused by the local clan chief if a wife complains.
Also, the clan chiefs all must obey the mandates of a local interpretor of law. He decrees justice and ends Family/ Clan feuds through marriage or dividing of goods to victims or those who are slighted by others.
The interpretors of gypsy law all have consensus in Spain and generally check with eachother to verify the origin of new gypsies into their comunity.
There is more, but its a complex code of law, which is rich in history as it is pragmatic and logical.
It just does not encourage working or look down upon illegal activities towards non gypsies....or between gypsies if the law allows for theft, murder or other remedies of injustice towards you.
One thing I do like about gypsy law is that you are allowed to lie, but if you give your word as a gypsy, you are bound to it lest you be killed for breaking it.
Thats how it is for Spanish gypsies.
I had gypsie friends in Spain. Still do, though I guess I will see them next life as they are hide and seek world champs...lol
The ones in Spain claim to be from India. Left when they still had their own religion so as to practice it, lost it over the ages by imposition of dominant cultures.
They do keep Gypsy law. Which is complex and strange.
Their communities are largely transient, though Spain has had some progress in making stable life more appealing. They do have actual neighborhoods now, with some reaching great wealth and prosperity. Illegal activities still prevail as to them there is only Gypsy law.
Much of the eastern Gypsies from Romania are as mentioned earlier, crap.
They arent very welcome in Spain by the native gypsies.
There are the ones who live by the code and are still not terrible. They work selling odds and ends but generally are very lazy. The women are the most hard working, but even then, lack any ambition.
Prostitution is reserved for the women who divorse or are left by their men. Virginity is sacred to them and a wife must be loyal, though men can be excused by the local clan chief if a wife complains.
Also, the clan chiefs all must obey the mandates of a local interpretor of law. He decrees justice and ends Family/ Clan feuds through marriage or dividing of goods to victims or those who are slighted by others.
The interpretors of gypsy law all have consensus in Spain and generally check with eachother to verify the origin of new gypsies into their comunity.
There is more, but its a complex code of law, which is rich in history as it is pragmatic and logical.
It just does not encourage working or look down upon illegal activities towards non gypsies....or between gypsies if the law allows for theft, murder or other remedies of injustice towards you.
One thing I do like about gypsy law is that you are allowed to lie, but if you give your word as a gypsy, you are bound to it lest you be killed for breaking it.
Thats how it is for Spanish gypsies.
edit on 8 11 2016 by tadaman because: (no reason given)
a reply to: tikbalang
What you want it to me to understand from all that, perhaps about the slavery? Like all that castes and systems used as method of control, even at these days? Not only about Rhomas but every caste class or system. Well that i have started to see through for some time now.
What you want it to me to understand from all that, perhaps about the slavery? Like all that castes and systems used as method of control, even at these days? Not only about Rhomas but every caste class or system. Well that i have started to see through for some time now.
a reply to: tikbalang
Manly P Hall was made an honory 33rd degree Mason, he never actually joined the Masons as such. He was given his title for his scholarly work not only on the secret teachings but his other works an lectures too.
As for the Gypsie/Egypt connection there may well be something to it, but for me it is of little import compared to the rest of Halls work.
Manly P Hall was made an honory 33rd degree Mason, he never actually joined the Masons as such. He was given his title for his scholarly work not only on the secret teachings but his other works an lectures too.
As for the Gypsie/Egypt connection there may well be something to it, but for me it is of little import compared to the rest of Halls work.
originally posted by: surfer_soul
Manly P Hall was made an honory 33rd degree Mason, he never actually joined the Masons as such.
Stop making things up:
On June 28, 1954, Hall initiated as a Freemason into Jewel Lodge No. 374, San Francisco (now the United Lodge); passed September 20, 1954; and raised November 22, 1954. He took the Scottish Rite Degrees a year later. Source
edit on 11-8-2016 by AugustusMasonicus because: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus
I didn't make it up I remember reading it somewhere on a source other than Wikipedia, if that source was wrong I stand corrected, regardless he wasn't a mason until aged about 53 long after he wrote the The Secret Teachings and other works. So surely he wasn't getting his information directly from your illustrious institution at time?
I didn't make it up I remember reading it somewhere on a source other than Wikipedia, if that source was wrong I stand corrected, regardless he wasn't a mason until aged about 53 long after he wrote the The Secret Teachings and other works. So surely he wasn't getting his information directly from your illustrious institution at time?
originally posted by: surfer_soul
So surely he wasn't getting his information directly from your illustrious institution at time?
No, he made it all up since he did not join until 30 years later. People attribute far too much weight to Hall, much in the way people do with Pike.
Sorry if I came off harsh.
Haven't read the thread, so it looks more studied than my offering. (Sorry)
We don't have gypsies (that I'm aware) in the U.S. Sometimes it's nice to think of running away, and joining a band of gypsies. You know, dancing by the firelight, bangles on your wrists. men come and lay their money down to watch you dance. Er, or maybe that's just Cher or somebody.
But the idea of it does have a certain romance to it. But baths. I have to have baths. I suppose I could turn my wagon or van, or camper trailer, whatever they have now, into a little spa.
We don't have gypsies (that I'm aware) in the U.S. Sometimes it's nice to think of running away, and joining a band of gypsies. You know, dancing by the firelight, bangles on your wrists. men come and lay their money down to watch you dance. Er, or maybe that's just Cher or somebody.
But the idea of it does have a certain romance to it. But baths. I have to have baths. I suppose I could turn my wagon or van, or camper trailer, whatever they have now, into a little spa.
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