Humor me, ATS, do you see a RAISED seal on the back of Obama’s short form birth certificate?

a reply to: MotherMayEye

I wasn't in on the alleged conversations you had with the HDOH. I'm not saying you didn't have them, just that there's no verification of them happening for anyone but your own personal knowledge. That makes your account certainly no more believable than any media account. So basically, I can't put any stock into what you're saying.

It might be accurate, it might not be. It might be misunderstood (the wording is curious, they don't 'use or maintain' the seal in question - so did they change it? Is it not their department who would use/maintain said seal?)

The biggest question for me though, besides the newspaper birth announcements, is, since Obama would be a natural born citizen regardless of where he was born, given his mother's U.S. Citizen status at the time of his birth, why does ANY of this matter, and for that matter, why even bother perpetrating a fake? It would be like me sitting in the pale-green room I'm in, photoshopping stock photos of a blue room to make them look pale-green, in an effort to prove my room is pale-green.

If it really is faked, then it was done in such a way as to make it really easy to prove as a fake, so they could be "caught" on purpose. There's no way, if they had more than 12 hours and $200, that they possibly could have gotten it wrong without trying. It's all so ridiculous that if the people who believe it's a fake are right, then we have much deeper mysteries to solve, such as "why do they want everyone to know its without question a fake?" - just a test to see how well propaganda works?

ETA - to clarify, I lean heavily toward Obama being a legitimate natural born citizen, based on his mother's citizenship status. The birth certificate, on the other hand, I just don't know, and honestly don't care enough either way. So I'm not arguing against, though it may sound as if I am. I'm just saying, if it is a fake - would it even be necessary, given his automatic natural born citizen status from his mother? If not (or even if so) I'm totally perplexed as to why it would be so poorly done (if this is true.)

originally posted by: dogstar23
a reply to: MotherMayEye

I wasn't in on the alleged conversations you had with the HDOH. I'm not saying you didn't have them, just that there's no verification of them happening for anyone but your own personal knowledge.

So write an open records request and send it to the Hawaii Department of Health YOURSELF.

You do not have to take my word for it.

Send them the photos that Factcheck took of the seal and ask them to provide you with a copy of that seal...or any seal -- embossed or debossed -- that they maintain or use in an official capacity.

But here's seven reasons to believe me:

1. The Hawaii Administrative Rules describe the official HDOH seal and require that it be "embossed" when used by the Director of Health in an official capacity. The rules give the Director exclusive control over the reproduction and use of the seal, but the discretion to deviate from the stated description of the official seal is restricted to size changes only:

HAR§11-1-2 – Seal of the department of health.

(b) The official seal of the department of health shall be EMBOSSED near the signature of the director of health to verify commissions of appointment of deputy directors and notaries public, certificates, and other formal official documents on which the official seal has been customarily used or is appropriate to be used, as the director of health may determine on a case-by-case basis.

Source

2. The Hawaii Department of Health vital records regulations promulgated by the Director of Health state the seal used by their agency and the Office of Health Status Monitoring (OHSM) to issue certified copies of vital records must be a "raised" seal:

Hawaii Public Health Regulations, Chapter 8b

2.4 Issuance of Certified Copies of Vital Records
B. Standards for Copies of Vital Records
(1) Standard Copy
(b) Form of certification. Standard certified copies shall contain an appropriate certification statement over the signature of the registrar having custody of the record and be impressed with the RAISED seal of the issuing office. The signature may be photographed or entered by mechanical means. The paper shall display the official seal of the Department of Health or the seal of the State.

[AND]

(2) Abbreviated Copy
(b) Form of certification. This will be the same as for a standard certified copy.

Source

3. A written statement from Hawaii's Office of Information Practices (OIP) indicates that the HDOH's seal is embossed. On December 14, 2010, Cathy Takase, OIP Acting Director made the following statement in response to an inquiry pertaining to a request for copies of the HDOH official seal made under Hawaii's Open Records Law, the Uniform Information Practices Act (UIPA):

I respond to your inquiry generally as follows:  I believe that  a copy in printed form must be disclosed, but that it is likely that DOH may refuse to provide a blank piece of paper with the actual RAISED EMBOSSED seal under the UIPA's frustration exception because the embossed seal is used only for the purpose of authenticating official records.  Thus, to provide a copy in that form would frustrate DOH's function of maintaining the integrity of its official records.   HRS § 92F-13(3).  I cannot speak to something that may have been given to the printer to create the actual device used without more information.

4. Two written statements directly issued by staff at the HDOH through open records requests indicate their official seal is an embossment. On December 4 and December 10, 2010, HDOH Public Information Staff wrote the following and disclosedcopies of two raised seals in response to request made under the UIPA for a copy of the HDOH official seal:

Based on your request, we provide you with a copy of the Department of Health seal as described in HAR §11-1-2; this seal is an EMBOSSMENT.

AND

Attached is a graphited copy of the EMBOSSED Department of Health seal. Regarding the remainder of your request, we have no records responsive to your request.

5. Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health stated on multiple occasions, in 2008, that the seal used to certify copies of birth records in Hawaii is embossed on the back of those type copies. Politifact reported the following about the 'invisible seal' in the initial images released of Obama's alleged COLB:

"The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama's birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.

"I guess the big issue that's being raised is the lack of an EMBOSSED seal and a signature," Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. "Because they scanned the front … you wouldn't see those things."

Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.

And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? "When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the EMBOSSED image through it."

Still, she acknowledges: "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
www.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

6. In June 2008, Ms. Okubo told the Israel Insider that "all" certified copies of COLBs are certified the same way: with an embossed seal. In an article that featured a photo of the reverse side of an embossed HDOH seal, Ms. Okubo was quoted, as follows, and the following backside of an embossed seal was published:

“In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the EMBOSSED seal and registrar signature on the back of the document.”

Source


7. Before FactCheck.org published their photographs of the seal debossment, on the back of Obama's COLB, Janice Okubo indicated that if we were to ever see the seal with any clarity, we should expect to see it embossed on the back of the document. On June 26, 2008, Jim Geraghty of the National Review Online referred to the same photo of an embossed HDOH seal, in reverse, and wrote the following when he questioned Ms. Okubo about the seal's visibility on Obama's alleged COLB:

I spoke to Ms. Okubo late Wednesday afternoon, and she said she had seen the version of Obama’s certificate of live birth posted on the sites. While her office cannot verify the information on a form without the permission of the certificate holder (Obama), she said “the form is exactly the same” and it has “all the components of a birth certificate” record issued by the state. In other words, she sees no reason to think the version posted on Obama’s web site and Daily Kos is not genuine.

The “EMBOSSED SEAL” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible ..."

Here is the official embossed seal used by HDOH with notations regarding the differences between a normal seal and the one used on Obama's BC

The Seal of the Hawaii Department of Health has been in effect since 1988 when it was made a part of the HDOH Title 11-1 administrative rules: "§11-1-2 Seal of the department of health. a) The official seal of the department of health shall be circular in shape, two and one-fourth inches in diameter. At the curve on the top portion there shall be the words "DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH" and at the curve on the bottom portion there shall be the words "STATE OF HAWAII ." At the curve on each side portion shall be a star. In the center of the seal shall be the Caduceus, a winged rod entwined with two serpents, which has long been recognized as a universal symbol of medicine. The Caduceus shall be encircled by an indentation, which shall separate it from the words "DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH" and "STATE OF HAWAII ." For illustrative purposes, a black and white drawing of the official seal is attached at the end of this section as Exhibit "A," titled "Seal of the Department of Health," and dated November 1, 1988, and made a part of this section."

Here is the image provided by FactCheck

Due to these indisputable facts, the seal on Obama’s COLB is not the HDOH seal and Dr. Fukino does not have authority over the seal appearing on Obama’s COLB according to the description in the Title 11 rules AND the version disclosed in my records request. The seal seen on Obama’s COLB HAS NO LEGAL WEIGHT either online or as a physical copy.

The information I am using is from:

www.obamareleaseyourrecords.com...

It clearly looks like the FactCheck information is forged, and quite a poor example at that.

originally posted by: StoutBroux
Here is the official embossed seal used by HDOH with notations regarding the differences between a normal seal and the one used on Obama's BC

The Seal of the Hawaii Department of Health has been in effect since 1988 when it was made a part of the HDOH Title 11-1 administrative rules: "§11-1-2 Seal of the department of health. a) The official seal of the department of health shall be circular in shape, two and one-fourth inches in diameter. At the curve on the top portion there shall be the words "DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH" and at the curve on the bottom portion there shall be the words "STATE OF HAWAII ." At the curve on each side portion shall be a star. In the center of the seal shall be the Caduceus, a winged rod entwined with two serpents, which has long been recognized as a universal symbol of medicine. The Caduceus shall be encircled by an indentation, which shall separate it from the words "DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH" and "STATE OF HAWAII ." For illustrative purposes, a black and white drawing of the official seal is attached at the end of this section as Exhibit "A," titled "Seal of the Department of Health," and dated November 1, 1988, and made a part of this section."

Here is the image provided by FactCheck

Due to these indisputable facts, the seal on Obama’s COLB is not the HDOH seal and Dr. Fukino does not have authority over the seal appearing on Obama’s COLB according to the description in the Title 11 rules AND the version disclosed in my records request. The seal seen on Obama’s COLB HAS NO LEGAL WEIGHT either online or as a physical copy.

The information I am using is from:

www.obamareleaseyourrecords.com...

It clearly looks like the FactCheck information is forged, and quite a poor example at that.

I love you.

The upper graphic is what I received from the Hawaii Department of Health. I am the blogger that reported on that.

The lower graphic I made, myself, to show that Factcheck was wrong.

I love you, I love you. It warms my heart to see my work was not without some interested audience.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Still with this? Hawaii stands firm and agrees Obama was born there. I too was born there and I have the same BC.

Looking at my copy of my BC (I lost the original traveling to the Bahamas in 2000 in substitute of a passport since I didn't have one) I don't even have a Seal. I've been robbed of my seal! Looks like Obamas BC there is also a copy. Of course the Prez gets a seal and I didn't!

a reply to: Swills

Well, i am VERY reluctant to take the word of someone on the internet after being involved in this issue for five+ years and having been bombarded by several controlled opposition operatives that drove the media narrative on this issue. BUT I would still love to see a well-lit, high resolution photo of the seal and registrar signature on the back of your own copy.

Also, if your seal is a match, if you could have the HDOH verify your copy's authenticity, that would be great.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Says the person on the Internet using photos of a BC and coming up with absolutes.

Like I said, I wasn't given a seal but if you want a high rez pick you're out of luck since my only camera is an iPhone and it's rez is pure trash.

a reply to: Swills

Oh, I see you edited your post and do NOT, in fact, have a copy of your birth certificate with the same seal to authenticate with the HDOH, after all.

Yeah. It's so funny Obama got a seal and you didn't.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Swills

Oh, I see you edited your post and do NOT, in fact, have a copy of your birth certificate with the same seal to authenticate with the HDOH, after all.

Yeah. It's so funny Obama got a seal and you didn't.

Oh don't you play games, I didn't edit the post after reading yours. I edited before reading your post because of grammar and I left out an entire word that dramatically changes the sentence.

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Says the person on the Internet using photos of a BC and coming up with absolutes.

Like I said, I wasn't given a seal but if you want a high rez pick you're out of luck since my only camera is an iPhone and it's rez is pure trash.

No seal and the signature stamp isn't even a match.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

So because I don't own a high rez camera you're gonna just throw evidence out of the window? You can clearly see from my crappy iPhone rez pic and battered BC I don't have a seal.


Pro-Tip. Use your browsers zoom feature (Ctrl + mousewheel).

a reply to: Swills

Ah, well then I missed the part beyond your claims to have a document that would corroborate Obama's. Which you don't have.

a reply to: Swills
You edited to include the pic after I responded. This time, I KNOW the pic wasn't there when I first replied.

BUT, your pic does not have a seal. So I am not sure why you thought you could corroborate Obama's with it.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Huh? I too am born in Hawaii and my BC lacks a seal. Why do you have a problem with this? Do you think I'm lying?

My document is my copy of my Birth Certificate. What do you have? Pictures and fantasies about Obama's Birth Certificate? Try this on then, google Hawaii Birth Certificates and see what pops up.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Yes you are right. I posted and forgot to post my pic. I literally edited my post to include the pic in less than a minute. Does this somehow disqualify my birth certificate? I know, I've said from post 1 my BC didn't even come with a seal so by your standards isn't my BC fake as well, more so than Obama's? His copy got a damn seal while my peasant ass didn't! You best believe I'm a little P O'd right now!

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Huh? I too am born in Hawaii and my BC lacks a seal. Why do you have a problem with this? Do you think I'm lying?

I think all certified copies of vital records issued by the Hawaii Department of Health are certified with their official raised seal and a registrar signature stamp pursuant to their rules, regulations, and a number of public statements the department has released.

Obama's copy even has a seal impression.

Yours does not.

So...yeah, I am thinking you could be lying, now. BUT, if you authorize the Department of Health to authenticate your claimed copy, I will gladly apologize.

None-the-less, Obama's alleged copy still has that pesky debossed seal. It isn't lacking a seal entirely. It just has a fraudulent seal.

Why does it even matter anymore? He's been in office for almost eight years now. Seven years ago this thread might have been relevant, now it's just worthless facts even if it is a fake.

He's going to be out of office in six months. If anything were to come up proving it be fake, do you really think they will prosecute him?

Thought so.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Well, I'm not surprised someone who thinks Obama's BC is fake also thinks I'm lying. I could mail you my BC and it still wouldn't be good enough, I'm sure. Well fun fact for all those actually denying ignorance in this thread, sometimes you don't get a seal.

Obama Shill out (mic drop)

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Swills

Well, i am VERY reluctant to take the word of someone on the internet after being involved in this issue for five+ years and having been bombarded by several controlled opposition operatives that drove the media narrative on this issue. BUT I would still love to see a well-lit, high resolution photo of the seal and registrar signature on the back of your own copy.

Also, if your seal is a match, if you could have the HDOH verify your copy's authenticity, that would be great.

Why should we take your word that you ever did anything related to the subject? You are after all just someone from the Internet with no credible information.

a reply to: TheLotLizard

Great. It's not an important topic to you. It is to me.

No, I don't think anything will ever come from it other than the truth reaching a few interested people.