The Ultimate "Cell System"; To Activate Non Powered Devices

I have long thought the holy grail for those bent on enslaving us to the system would be to remotely power up devices and have them spit the data out to you. Technology like smart dust would then become a realty simply because it would not need an on board power source, it could be activated by incoming radio waves, which is converted over to direct current, then powers up the circuit just enough to spit data out. Such a system could be "pulsed" regularly to obtain more average readings.

Now, if the elite were to employ such a system, I would be curious as to how much microwave power would be needed to make this practical, and at what frequency should it be implemented on?

Next step would be the "chip-in-the-skin" scenario, no batteries required.

originally posted by: standingwave
I have long thought the holy grail for those bent on enslaving us to the system would be to remotely power up devices and have them spit the data out to you.

I'm assuming you mean 'spit the data out to them', as delivering me free data wouldn't be much of an enslavement. What sort of data are you afraid of, btw?

Technology like smart dust would then become a realty simply because it would not need an on board power source, it could be activated by incoming radio waves, which is converted over to direct current, then powers up the circuit just enough to spit data out. Such a system could be "pulsed" regularly to obtain more average readings.

Well, 'smart dust' isn't really. It's more like smart rock salt or smart sugar cubes at this point. But you have a real issue here, and that's a physics barrier. When your little devices become quite small, it's no longer practical to communicate with them or power them using radio. Because radio wavelength, antenna size and efficiency are all interlinked in a way you can't avoid. So most plans for nanotech basically use hard UV to communicate, because they can't really receive anything with a shorter wavelength than visible light.

Now, if the elite were to employ such a system, I would be curious as to how much microwave power would be needed to make this practical, and at what frequency should it be implemented on?

It isn't practical. But start with visible light and work up for your frequency.

Next step would be the "chip-in-the-skin" scenario, no batteries required.

Alas, "the chip-in-the-skin scenario" invariably uses near field, because your body just LOVES to absorb high frequency radio. Thus chips in the skin do not communicate that way. Instead, they use h-field for power and signaling by load modulation. This, however, is also plagued with issues if you want to read it at any distance over a few inches. So it's not so useful for transmitting evil data like your body temperature.

a reply to: standingwave

I know...www.spacedaily.com...

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: standingwave
I have long thought the holy grail for those bent on enslaving us to the system would be to remotely power up devices and have them spit the data out to you.

I'm assuming you mean 'spit the data out to them', as delivering me free data wouldn't be much of an enslavement. What sort of data are you afraid of, btw?

Technology like smart dust would then become a realty simply because it would not need an on board power source, it could be activated by incoming radio waves, which is converted over to direct current, then powers up the circuit just enough to spit data out. Such a system could be "pulsed" regularly to obtain more average readings.

Well, 'smart dust' isn't really. It's more like smart rock salt or smart sugar cubes at this point. But you have a real issue here, and that's a physics barrier. When your little devices become quite small, it's no longer practical to communicate with them or power them using radio. Because radio wavelength, antenna size and efficiency are all interlinked in a way you can't avoid. So most plans for nanotech basically use hard UV to communicate, because they can't really receive anything with a shorter wavelength than visible light.

Now, if the elite were to employ such a system, I would be curious as to how much microwave power would be needed to make this practical, and at what frequency should it be implemented on?

It isn't practical. But start with visible light and work up for your frequency.

Next step would be the "chip-in-the-skin" scenario, no batteries required.

Alas, "the chip-in-the-skin scenario" invariably uses near field, because your body just LOVES to absorb high frequency radio. Thus chips in the skin do not communicate that way. Instead, they use h-field for power and signaling by load modulation. This, however, is also plagued with issues if you want to read it at any distance over a few inches. So it's not so useful for transmitting evil data like your body temperature.

Well, thanks for the useful info. I was thinking that the physical size of electrical resonance might be a factor. I wonder if there is a point in the very high end of the RF spectrum that is not affected too much by a thin skin barrier?

But it is not my "body temp" data that I would be worried about someone having. It would be things such as whether I had eaten anything, where Im located, and monetary or medical data being constantly tied into the system. If the gov. wanted to go out all evil, such a system could be used to regulate food, water, and other basics a human needs to exist.

originally posted by: standingwave
Well, thanks for the useful info. I was thinking that the physical size of electrical resonance might be a factor. I wonder if there is a point in the very high end of the RF spectrum that is not affected too much by a thin skin barrier?

It varies - there are 'windows' around 400MHz where you can get signals in and out with only an awful loss instead of an insurmountable one. But that's still a big-ass antenna. Like 12cm or something to have any efficiency. You also run into a problem with the aperture being too small to be effective as the frequency goes up.

Then, you get into impedance steps, dissipation, reflection and refraction. As radio waves enter your body, you are very much not the impedance of air. So a huge percentage of it bounces off, or runs along the surface. What makes it into the skin then starts turning into heat instead of radio waves. When it finally reaches your putative chip, there's not much left, but at extremely high frequencies of the sort you'd need for the chip to be unnoticeable, you have no aperture and the chip is going to have to rectify light, more or less, due to the ungodly short wavelength.

Basically, you end up chasing your tail on that one, and thus no one uses embedded wave powered parts that use propagating EM. There are battery powered implants which are as large as you might imagine, typically pacemakers, although by far most pacemakers use near field as well. For the same reasons. Then you end up with having to charge the batteries. And it's huge. So no longer 'just a chip'.

But it is not my "body temp" data that I would be worried about someone having. It would be things such as whether I had eaten anything, where Im located, and monetary or medical data being constantly tied into the system. If the gov. wanted to go out all evil, such a system could be used to regulate food, water, and other basics a human needs to exist.

All that is available now, though. At least it's easy to tell WHAT you eat unless you're growing it in the backyard, because you either bought it at the store or you bought it at the restaurant. Unless you paid cash and did not use an affinity card of some sort, then They® know. But then, if they really wanted to know if you were there, they can track your cell phone.

Your medical data could be gotten too, unless your doc and insurance only use paper records.

And your monetary data is there for them to have. Having a chip stuck in your skin doesn't really matter for any of this stuff.

At the moment, if they want to concentrate their attention on you, your stray data can be used to construct a behavioral model that can be used to locate you with amazing accuracy. And of course your phone will tell them. But eventually, and I'm talking less than 10 years or so, they will catch your iris prints when you're out in public.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: standingwave

I know...www.spacedaily.com...

Thats some crazy stuff. Just think, your brain could be programmable and upgraded. Kinda like a performance chip in a car or truck.

a reply to: standingwave

Hacking and it's possibilities curb my joy, unfortunately.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: standingwave
Well, thanks for the useful info. I was thinking that the physical size of electrical resonance might be a factor. I wonder if there is a point in the very high end of the RF spectrum that is not affected too much by a thin skin barrier?

It varies - there are 'windows' around 400MHz where you can get signals in and out with only an awful loss instead of an insurmountable one. But that's still a big-ass antenna. Like 12cm or something to have any efficiency. You also run into a problem with the aperture being too small to be effective as the frequency goes up.

Then, you get into impedance steps, dissipation, reflection and refraction. As radio waves enter your body, you are very much not the impedance of air. So a huge percentage of it bounces off, or runs along the surface. What makes it into the skin then starts turning into heat instead of radio waves. When it finally reaches your putative chip, there's not much left, but at extremely high frequencies of the sort you'd need for the chip to be unnoticeable, you have no aperture and the chip is going to have to rectify light, more or less, due to the ungodly short wavelength.

Basically, you end up chasing your tail on that one, and thus no one uses embedded wave powered parts that use propagating EM. There are battery powered implants which are as large as you might imagine, typically pacemakers, although by far most pacemakers use near field as well. For the same reasons. Then you end up with having to charge the batteries. And it's huge. So no longer 'just a chip'.

But it is not my "body temp" data that I would be worried about someone having. It would be things such as whether I had eaten anything, where Im located, and monetary or medical data being constantly tied into the system. If the gov. wanted to go out all evil, such a system could be used to regulate food, water, and other basics a human needs to exist.

All that is available now, though. At least it's easy to tell WHAT you eat unless you're growing it in the backyard, because you either bought it at the store or you bought it at the restaurant. Unless you paid cash and did not use an affinity card of some sort, then They® know. But then, if they really wanted to know if you were there, they can track your cell phone.

Your medical data could be gotten too, unless your doc and insurance only use paper records.

And your monetary data is there for them to have. Having a chip stuck in your skin doesn't really matter for any of this stuff.

At the moment, if they want to concentrate their attention on you, your stray data can be used to construct a behavioral model that can be used to locate you with amazing accuracy. And of course your phone will tell them. But eventually, and I'm talking less than 10 years or so, they will catch your iris prints when you're out in public.

Just for fun, I am trying to understand how large a half wave antenna would be for 24 gig to see is it could be grown into the chip itself.

I agree with your iris scanning statement. Perhaps everyone will be walking round with reflective sunglasses.

Unless my calculations are off, looks like a half wavelength at 24ghz is .06mm. That is quite small!
edit: My calculations were off, its more like 1/4 inch! Too large to be of any use for what I was thinking.

originally posted by: standingwave
Just for fun, I am trying to understand how large a half wave antenna would be for 24 gig to see is it could be grown into the chip itself.

About 1/2 cm in water. Which it would be, more or less.

The dissipation of 24GHz in saline solution is absolutely ungodly. Then, you have nearly no aperture - 1/4cm square. And your backscatter signal then faces another ungodly dissipative pass through your skin, then the impedance step at the skin-air interface, which will cause one more round of reflection loss.

There won't be anything left. That's why no one does that.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: standingwave
Just for fun, I am trying to understand how large a half wave antenna would be for 24 gig to see is it could be grown into the chip itself.

About 1/2 cm in water. Which it would be, more or less.

The dissipation of 24GHz in saline solution is absolutely ungodly. Then, you have nearly no aperture - 1/4cm square. And your backscatter signal then faces another ungodly dissipative pass through your skin, then the impedance step at the skin-air interface, which will cause one more round of reflection loss.

There won't be anything left. That's why no one does that.

Ok, well, scratch that idea. I suppose there is no way to achieve what Im thinking, which is a network of devices that can be remotely activated without an on board source of power.....Whew! Now I dont have to worry about real time in-skin tracking!