Left vs Right

a reply to: TrueBrit

Perhaps they deliberately skewed it up here,for a control measure...
I prefer the term "brusquely assertive" to "foul mouth" myself but the again I AM a combat American( CREATED another "self"identifier there)

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

If memory serves,you guys in the communist block already did that with our media and entertainment you smuggled in.
AS most american were horrified and hurt by what happened in your country, I THINK we should lay off the COUP business myself but ,nobody asks.
I want your country to obtain the SAME identity we have here nationally,not be our puppet.
I guess I 'm naive.

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: ketsuko

On the other end is all else: communism, fascism, monarchy, etc., all of which presuppose a big, central government that hordes all power and control to itself, leaving none for its people.

But the US is...well...stated as a democracy...doesnt it have a gigantic government ? Doesnt US govt "hordes all power and control to itself" ?

Unfortunately.

But when you are talking about left and right in the US, it's not so simple at, least for the right, to talk about just "the right" as if it's one mega monolith. There are at least 14 different sub-groups and movements within the right. Not all of them get along and they disagree with each other about what the proper role and place of government should be.

You've got everything from people who might as well be Democrats because they like big government and its power. They're the ones who simply want to exercise power on their own behalf and make it run "smarter." Then you have the ones who want to cut entire departments out of the Federal Bureaucracy along with massive entitlement programs. They all fall under the umbrella of the same party, ironically, because of how the American system functions, but I think you can well imagine how they don't get along.

Now, I am no expert on the left, but it seems to have done a much better job of either purging its dissident factions or reigning them by convincing them they are all going to get exactly what they want because they work together in lockstep much more effectively. You can see this in their long march through the institutions and their ability to get things they want even when they are a minority voice in the Congress.

a reply to: TrueBrit

They could call themselves the fluffy bunny party, and would still be a bunch of closet Nazi throwbacks with no legitimacy what so ever.

I wish it were so

The "democrats" in my country have been on the winning end for the last 20 years...since the independence. The people give them legitimacy...by voting them in.

I personally believe, that the difference has been developed as a way to prevent United States citizens from drawing easily comprehended comparisons between themselves, and those living in the rest of the western world, the better to keep them guessing come election time, and operating on knee jerk, rather than rational thought.

a very interesting thought. So you think it's that way by some "devious" design. hm...

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

It is not just about devious design. It is a misdirect, one which has been proven to work, and comes as if ripped directly out of the Nazi party operating manual. Hiding the truth from people just out of reach, rather than burying it completely, is far more effective. Put another way, when someone willingly extends the wrist that it might be shackled, those whose task it is to oppress and control populations have an easier time.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

indeed Terry...if you were an outsider to Croatian politics, if asked who should we go for in the next election...I'm guessing that a natural response from someone who was brought up in the western world...is that we should go for the Democrats. But when you look at my definitions of each party...you would have likely said..."hey hey...wait a minute man...that has nothing to do with Democracy"

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Let me try to explain American politics.

They use words like;
Progressive
Democratic
Republic
Freedom

The same way someone calling themselves a vegan, eats bacon.

so what you're saying is...labels are useless in this instance.

But we need labels to separate black from white...(no It's not a racial reference).

a reply to: cavtrooper7

If memory serves,you guys in the communist block already did that with our media and entertainment you smuggled in.

I'm not sure what you mean by this...can you explain please...

I want your country to obtain the SAME identity we have here nationally,not be our puppet. I guess I 'm naive.

you know what the problem is...if we want to keep our identity...we have to go for the before mentioned...Democrats. Socialists are not to big on keeping national identity. Again..this seems reversed back in the US.

a reply to: ketsuko

But when you are talking about left and right in the US, it's not so simple at, least for the right, to talk about just "the right" as if it's one mega monolith. There are at least 14 different sub-groups and movements within the right. Not all of them get along and they disagree with each other about what the proper role and place of government should be.

this is interesting to me...because as an outsider to US politics...I dont see that. All I see is Hillary CLinton as a democratic representative. I saw some democrat division during Bernie's campaign...but somehow...it all looks like a big show to me. I dont understand from the human side (non political)...how can you spew vitriol (justly so) about someone, and then make 180 turn and support the very same person. I'm the kind of guy that would never work with someone who I yesterday called an idiot...and no amount of self interest would make me go back on what I said.

I know people will say that he got his points introduced into Hillary's program...but in the end...this is not what the voters wanted. They wanted you in power...not to have a few of your points absorbed by the opposition.

Anyway...this is not about Bernie or Hillary...it's about the division you mentioned. Somehow...this division does not appear real to me...but like a low budget side show for entertainment purposes only.

a reply to: TrueBrit

It is not just about devious design. It is a misdirect, one which has been proven to work, and comes as if ripped directly out of the Nazi party operating manual. Hiding the truth from people just out of reach, rather than burying it completely, is far more effective. Put another way, when someone willingly extends the wrist that it might be shackled, those whose task it is to oppress and control populations have an easier time.

on that note...I often wonder...are we just crazy mad conspiracy theorists...or does this stuff really happen. If it does...shouldnt we start a revolution or something ?

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

You smuggled in our VCR tapes and got a look outside the iron curtain and it helped you decide who you are.
If EVERYONE became psychic overnight,only the honest people would be fine with it.
Trump is a revenge move, here.
Less political and more because he's making the right people mad.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

You smuggled in our VCR tapes and got a look outside the iron curtain and it helped you decide who you are.

There was never an Iron curtain...whatever you've been told. At least not in Yugoslavia. People were migrating freely back then. Be it for political reasons, or personal...we have a huge expat population...in South America, Australia, Germany, Canada...overwhelming number of those emigrated before the break up of Yugoslavia.

As for VCR tapes...I doubt WE smuggled them in...it was rather pushed...on all corners of the Earth. Even North Korea. And if it helped to decide who we are...then I must tell you that today...most of my people are...like my democrats. Nationalistic, homophobic, religious. So I'm not sure how much "help" was there from those VCRs.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Heh...

It does, and is happening. We are also crazy, mad conspiracy theorists. But look at the number of things we have been right about over the years.

Mass surveillance

Terror groups being proxies for the major powers, rather than legitimately independent organisations

Corruption in city governments

EU jerk baggery at government level

Police undercovers being used as agent provocateurs

Economic vandalism

And so on, and so forth...

Just because one is a conspiracy theorist, crazy or otherwise, does not mean one is necessarily wrong.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Heh...

It does, and is happening. We are also crazy, mad conspiracy theorists. But look at the number of things we have been right about over the years.

Mass surveillance

Terror groups being proxies for the major powers, rather than legitimately independent organisations

Corruption in city governments

EU jerk baggery at government level

Police undercovers being used as agent provocateurs

Economic vandalism

And so on, and so forth...

Just because one is a conspiracy theorist, crazy or otherwise, does not mean one is necessarily wrong.

but I should still vote ?



All these things are true that you stated...so do you feel that one side (left/right) is responsible...if so..which one ? And what to do about it ?

and isnt the worst thing you can do...to simply go out and vote...for any of the two ?

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Even the US ?
During the cold war WE were bombarded with propaganda about things.
HOWEVER, I doubt Russia was your friend or you would have remained with them.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

First of all, there must be a clear separation in the mind between genuine, grass roots, regular folk, and the extremists. It simply is never the case that EVERYONE falls into either one of a binary choice between two insane positions.

Second of all, you are absolutely right that it is a fools errand to pick between two hateful and despicable parties or individuals when deciding on the leadership of an entire nation. It is upon a nations political establishment to provide relevant, and representative options for leadership. Failing to do so, renders the establishment beyond effective, proper use.

Third, the thing which renders parties and entire sides of the debate meaningless, is when both parties are either insane and dangerous, as in the case of totalitarians, authoritarians, and hate groups on either side, and when both or all parties are centrist. In the instance of totalitarians and so on, the dangers are obvious, and need not be explored, such is the blatancy of the problems they pose. With two parties, both of whom are centrist, the danger is that no one gets represented at all, and all that happens is the status quo is maintained, to the detriment of the people and their liberties.

The left and right are both to blame for this, and by that I mean the establishment right, and the establishment left. The people of a nation very rarely have any actual power to affect change, because as a great man once said, if voting was important, they would not let you do it, or words to that effect.

You have choices. You can start a political party of your own, investigate third way parties, or write to your local representatives, insisting that their party represent the interests of the people, not the interests of the party itself and the corporations they usually serve.