Three more Iranians set themselves on fire

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams


Dying for a cause is not a sign of defeat or inferiority...

Not if the act of dying physically destroys your enemy and your majority wins. At least that's the mindset of the suicide bomber.

But destroying yourself when the actual act has only trivial positive impact and possible negative impact for your cause, means that you have reached rock bottom. You have ceased to function.

Instead of killing yourself for an ideal, why not fight for it?
You can't fight for it? Then work out another way to make your ideal stronger.
You make one big mistake in your argumant. You assume that this is the only way that these people can put their message across. That isn't true.

There are ALWAYS other options.

haha
wtf
that dude is getting put out, some protester!

DAMN QUITTERS!

I don't know why, but I think it'd be great to see someone do the robot while on fire!

I always think the "just sitting here and this doesn't f*cking hurt" act is rather cool.

By Leveller:
"Instead of killing yourself for an ideal, why not fight for it?
You can't fight for it? Then work out another way to make your ideal stronger.
You make one big mistake in your argumant. You assume that this is the only way that these people can put their message across. That isn't true"

Uh, these people have, for 25 years, tried to get their point across. Some people have listened to it. Obviously, a lot of other people haven't.

Also by Leveller:
"But destroying yourself when the actual act has only trivial positive impact and possible negative impact for your cause, means that you have reached rock bottom. You have ceased to function"

Not really. In the modern era, victory within the media world is more important than victory on the battlefield. Are these deaths trivial? People around the world are talking about them right now... People around the world are also becoming aware of what the Iranian people are experiencing.. sorry about that, as you seem to only express a concept of liberty that 'takes an enemy with you'. Where did you get that from, a speech made by Worf on Star Trek: The Next Generation? Really, dude, you should realize that these people are at the end of their options, and are sacrificing themselves for freedom. Yes, as Lysergic has joked, self-burning doesn't work if the cops put you out... But, Leveller, you have to realize that these people have tried armed resistence within Iran and had those efforts put down.. they've tried to get the support of western democracies, but, outside of the USA, they've received no help or moral support...

Ofcourse, Leveller, I'm sure that your real intention with this thread was to show Iranians as stupid imbeciles. Why not admit to that? You believe that the War for Independence was a real 'war', but what's going on in Iran isn't... So, you believe that it's ok to fight for freedom and democracy when the chances of personal loss are low... but when some people fight for democracy with all they have left... they're sick and stupid, right?

Sorry, Leveller, if these Iranians tried to build up a revolutiuonary army at home they'd be dragged from their homes at night and murdered/raped. They've also asked western countries for help, and, outside of the USA, have gotten no help... So, according to you, they should just deal with the injustice that goes on in their homeland!!!

Well, leveller, I hope that no one died to get you the freedom's you enjoy, because, right now, it seems like you're saying that you have the right to be free but people in Iran don't.

And if you're about to respond by calling me too idealistic, you're the one who offered up the bull# about 'negotiating' for your freedom.

Jim

Hey, hey, you guys are reading too much into this whole Iranian Roast du jur thing. It just goes to show that there's a reason for those stupid safety warning on disposable lighters. We don't like to admit it, but some people are just that stupid as to put the lighter back in the pocket before extinguishing the flame!

There is only a transformation, for the one who dies and those affected by it.
Your arguments cannot be settled by validation of the act. Some choose to be transformed and some do not. That is our free will.

Free will goes good with milk and cookies..unless your lactose intolerant...in which case its still yummy but then you spend thirty minutes on the toilet with diarrhea and cramping so painful that you'd think about setting yourself on fire to end the suffering.


You are all absolutely free

Originally posted by Toltec
Its interesting they have chosen France to do this

No, it's because the french anti-terrorist intervention firce arrested 150 iranian in the suburb of Paris this monday. They found imortant amounts of cash dollars (About 1milion) and other stuff (They didn't say what,maybe explosives, chemical or plan, or all of these stuffs...). They are members of the iranian rebel moudjahi'din group. A radical muslim group, forbidden by the iranian governement. French police say that they was preparing terrorists attack... These people are protesting against these arrestation. Iranian governement ask them extradition to iran...

Maybe you will find me hard, but at leastn we wont have these one to fear of to fight......No, seriously, I tought that suicide was a deadly sin and forbidden by the Q'URAN...

I'm all for trouble makers of any kind burning themselves... We should spray something on them....(gasoline perhaps?)

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams

Ofcourse, Leveller, I'm sure that your real intention with this thread was to show Iranians as stupid imbeciles. Why not admit to that?

I won't admit to it because the statement is false.
It is also utterly arrogant of you to assume otherwise so do me a favour and desist from judging me as you have clearly shown that you have neither the intelligence or understanding to do so.

Suicide is wrong under any circumstance
. If you disagree, do me a favour. Go kill yourself. That way I won't have to read the drivel that you have spouted in justifying your pointless argument.

And as for your post?
You obviously can't read. You have insinuated all sorts of bull# yourself that does not appear in my words.

I suggest that you are blinded by your own ignorance, my friend.

Oh, really, Leveller:

Written by Leveller:
"*sigh*
These dudes should set themselves on fire back in Tehran.
The Iranians could do with this new type of energy source.
Who needs Nuclear reactors when you can have People Fired Reactors?"
...So, how are my 'assumptions' wrong?

And also:
"You have a mouth. You have two hands and feet.
Use those in either politics or revolution.

When all you have to give to put your point across is your life, you have failed to function properly."



"With fire there is no variance.
Haven't you heard that if you play with fire you will get burnt?
The result is always the same. Death or disfigurement.

Death is a last resort. It is not something you seek to use as a propaganda tool unless you are using it physically against other people. Using it against yourself shows weakness. It proves that you are incapable of offering any other alternative. f*f*ck what you believe in. Where death comes in, there is a defining line. In comparison, it almost seems OK to be a suicide bomber because although you are gaining propaganda, at least you are also physically hurting your enemy.
You are selling yourself out to death if your only aim is to change other people's opinions. "


"If all you can do is die for your beliefs then you deserve the end result"

...now, for someone who enjoys calling other people stupid, point out one intelligent thing in the above statements, please? So, it's moral to be a suicide bomber who kills twenty inocent people, but, if you have been completely silenced, if you have no way of using your 'hands and feet' to eleviate your oppression, it's wrong to do whatever it takes to bring attention to the plight of your people? Guess what, these people have been trying for years to get help... to get attention... from people like you, however, it appears that some people just enjoy wisecracks and arrogance.

To be frank, as much as you think I'm stupid for being outraged by your comments... I think that you're some guy who sits at his computer all day telling people the answers for everything. In comments like, "If all you can do is die for your beliefs then you deserve the end result," I SEE a very judgemental and arrogant person (though, for some reason, after you've pased judgement on other people you have the NERVE to call me judgemental because I disagree with you). I also see someone who thinks that he knows everything... and yet who has never learned the value of life, though, with cold amusement, he denounces its loss. I see a man, safe, happy, who enjoys living in a free society, but does not think than anyone else has the right to try to gain freedom.

Oh, and as for your little preservation of self comments.. what, did you just get out of biology class? E.O. Wilson's a pretty good read, eh? Yeah, you know everything, don't you? Glad you had the chance TO learn everything.

Bottom line, Leveller: You can't call someone ignorant and judgemental while, at the same time, you sit back making little jokes about people whose actions you don't agree with. Sorry, but you DON't know everything, and you are NOT always right. When you learn that there's more to life than your seemingluy divine truisms.. then reply.

I believe that killing yourself without making a positive difference to your cause is wrong.
The actions of these people will have a NEGATIVE impact on their cause.


They have harmed themselves and their cause.

If that isn't stupid then what the hell is?


Judgemental my butt. It's damn logical and you know it.

Uh,
You keep changing what thinking you're using as the basis for your thinking:

One moment (Like above) you're making a cost-benefit judgement...

The next moment you're calling anyone who disagrees with you names...

And then, in a patterned fashion, you go back to some speech about how people are stupid if they put thier ideals above their life... or if they can't achive their freedom through methods that don't involve their own deaths (the whole: If they're dying, they deserve to die line). Think I'm misrepresenting you? Just re-read your own posts, or the lines I've cited from them.

Right now you're trying to shift the argument away from the screwups that you're pissed that I called you on (namely, the whole "They deserve to die.." stuff). Yes, like I said in the VERY beginning, these people are not going about what they're aiming for the right way... But your comments about them being 'failures' and how they deserve to die, because they can't, through other means, achieve a beneficial government in Iran go WAY too far. Under your thinking, the people who died in Nazi death camps deserved to die because they couldn't defend themselves (NO, I'm not exagerating or warping what you said--- Read your own writing).

Your comments here, on this page, seem to be saying:
IF YOU'RE AN OPPRESSED PEOPLE, AND YOU CAN'T OVERTHROW YOUR MASTERS ON YOUR OWN, YOU DESERVE TO DIE. IF YOU USE PUBLIC SUICIDE METHODS AS A WAY TO CALL ATTENTION TO YOUR PLIGHT, AND AS A WAY TO POINT OUT THE LACK OF ATTENTION OTHER SOCIETIES HAVE GIVEN TO YOUR PLIGHT, YOUR DEATHS ARE JUST MANIFESTATIONS OF YOUR PERSONAL FAILURES--- AND THEY DEMONSTRATE, THROUGH YOUR OWN FAILURE, WHY YOU SHOULD BE 'RULED' IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And, no, I'm not misrepresenting you. If you're as smart as you claim to be, you should be able to break down the things you've said into symbolic logic... process them.. and see that you've just sanctioned death under dictatorship if the people ruled by that dictatorship are out of ways to defend themselves..

..and, if that's not what you meant to say, then, as dumb as you claim that I am... you, a man who claims to know the moral truth about every situation, are just plain lazy. Read your own posts. You're either lazy or a hypocrite.

Zainab would laugh at you.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
Uh,
You keep changing what thinking you're using as the basis for your thinking:

Nope. Not changing my thinking. You just can't read. Either that or you don't want to.

One moment (Like above) you're making a cost-benefit judgement...

The next moment you're calling anyone who disagrees with you names...

I would have thought calling me racist would be a good reason for calling you an idiot. Not once have I expressed racism. What, you automatically assume that because I disagree with these people I would agree with a Westerner if he were to do the same thing? That's ignorant and reading words into statements that aren't there.

And then, in a patterned fashion, you go back to some speech about how people are stupid if they put thier ideals above their life... or if they can't achive their freedom through methods that don't involve their own deaths (the whole: If they're dying, they deserve to die line). Think I'm misrepresenting you? Just re-read your own posts, or the lines I've cited from them.

I don't have to reread them. Maybe you should. The argument is about wether people should give their lives in THIS SPECIFIC FASHION. Again, you aren't even close to the mark. Where have I stated that dieing for a cause is wrong? Oops. Haven't have I? Yet again you can't read. It's the fashion that you choose to die in, the result of your death in this situation, that is the point.

Right now you're trying to shift the argument away from the screwups that you're pissed that I called you on (namely, the whole "They deserve to die.." stuff).

Well as you know so much, please tell me what the difference is between these people and any other domestic suicide case where people leave a note. They are no different. They have ceased to function in society. If people want to leave this life in the way that they do, then what gives you the right to stop them? Or the right to urge them on?
My point is a point of view. These suicides are pointless. Get that through your thick skull. If something is pointless it is stupid. It is a waste. Maybe you can't understand that but to me that is totally logical.

Yes, like I said in the VERY beginning, these people are not going about what they're aiming for the right way... But your comments about them being 'failures' and how they deserve to die, because they can't, through other means, achieve a beneficial government in Iran go WAY too far.

Total crap and you know it. Far better to pick up a gun and fight for their cause rather than to damage it in the way that they have. Oh but according to you, they can't. You state that this is the last resort. Bull#.

Under your thinking, the people who died in Nazi death camps deserved to die because they couldn't defend themselves (NO, I'm not exagerating or warping what you said--- Read your own writing).

There is no logical connection between the Jewish Holocaust and these Iranian suiciders. The Jews were killed by the Nazis. Maybe you missed that part of history. It wasn't suicide. It was murder. Now in my book there is a big difference. Maybe your book is missing a few pages. I suggest you go to www.dictionary.com and look up the definitions for the words "suicide" and "murder".

IF YOU'RE AN OPPRESSED PEOPLE, AND YOU CAN'T OVERTHROW YOUR MASTERS ON YOUR OWN, YOU DESERVE TO DIE. IF YOU USE PUBLIC SUICIDE METHODS AS A WAY TO CALL ATTENTION TO YOUR PLIGHT, AND AS A WAY TO POINT OUT THE LACK OF ATTENTION OTHER SOCIETIES HAVE GIVEN TO YOUR PLIGHT, YOUR DEATHS ARE JUST MANIFESTATIONS OF YOUR PERSONAL FAILURES--- AND THEY DEMONSTRATE, THROUGH YOUR OWN FAILURE, WHY YOU SHOULD BE 'RULED' IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I guess you're illiterate and you either can't read or you're just plain stupid, or your ignorance is yet again blinding you. I believe the latter. My point is that there is ALWAYS another way rather than just needlessly killing yourself.
Want me to repeat that? I've repeated it time and time again here yet you either can'ty grasp the concept or you're too tied up in your own short sightedness that you are unable to comprehend logic.
I state that they deserve to be ruled? Where? "You seem to be saying that"? Where? There is a big difference between what your opinion of my post is and what it actually says. I've not once stated that they deserve to be ruled. I've continually stated that rather than suicide they should find other ways to achieve their goal. But yet again you are blind.
I guess you would just kill yourself rather than look for another way to achieve your aims. Sorry pal if all you've got is your life for nothing in return, in my eyes you are weak.

And, no, I'm not misrepresenting you. If you're as smart as you claim to be, you should be able to break down the things you've said into symbolic logic... process them.. and see that you've just sanctioned death under dictatorship if the people ruled by that dictatorship are out of ways to defend themselves..

Now I'm crying with laughter. You're the guy who is the dreamer, the fighter for ideals, the one who justifies needless suicide. Tell me where the logic is there?
When I point out the logic to you, you tend to skip over it and bring up situations like the Holocaust or the Concord Bridge incident, that bear no significance to the situation of today. "Now who is trying to shift the argument". Neither of these "examples" bears even the slightest resemblance to the Paris suicides apart from the fact that people died. You would have been far better off comparing the situation with any of the thousands of suicides taking place in the West each day - people needlessly killing themselves when there is ALWAYS another way out. But no, you have to read in some romantic vision of dying for a cause. Balls to the cause. You want to die for it, then fight for it. But not you. You choose the coward's way out.

BTW. Big thing here is that I don't claim to be smart. Yet again you put words to posts where there are none.

..and, if that's not what you meant to say, then, as dumb as you claim that I am... you, a man who claims to know the moral truth about every situation, are just plain lazy. Read your own posts. You're either lazy or a hypocrite.

I don't claim you to be dumb. I claim you to be ignorant. Big difference. As for lazy and a hypocrite? Yes sometimes I am, but then isn't everyone? At a guess I would say that you are the one confused over this situation. You know that taking your own life is wrong but you refuse to let go of the romantic ideal of dying needlessly for your cause. Notice the word "needlessly"? I'll bet if you reply you'll ignore that word.
As for claiming the moral truth? I'm expressing an opinion. Luckily for me, our society also holds the same opinion that suicide is wrong. I'd rather sit with the majority on this one than sit with you under the tree of illogical ignorance.

Zainab would laugh at you.

Well then, she would be wrong. Just as you are.




And finally, you seem to have based most of your opinion of me on this line:

"If all you can do is die for your beliefs then you deserve the end result".

Read it again. The first 5 words are the important ones.
These people choose to die. They choose to seek no other way. It's OK to say that 25 years in opposition and no progress has driven them to this, but that's not true. These people have free will. Choice.
If they choose to do something that logic tells you is pointless, then why don't they deserve the end result? It is their choice - understand? Their aim is to harm or kill themselves, why should they not deserve the accomplishment of their goal?

[Edited on 21-6-2003 by Leveller]

Onlyinmydreams, based upon what happened in Iraq perhaps these individuals who are setting themselves on fire see France as a government, which would interfere with freedom in Iran.

Given everything that has happened to date it seems to make sense.

What are your thoughts?

Maybe this would be a clue as to their motives.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Leveller,
For someone who likes to tell people that they are dumb or can't read, you obviously can't understand what you yourself are saying. I said, right away, that the way they were going about this was wrong... what I WAS replying to were your statements like, "If all you have left to give for your cause is your life, you deserve to die." Did you really think that you could make such a statment and just get a stream of nods?

Also, I didn't call you a racist. YOU made that connection.

Taking the time to cite other things that you wrote is a waste of time, as you seem unwilling to acknowledge the connection between 'words' and 'meanings'. For this reason, I won't continue this discussion any furher.

And, to 'level' with you, your maxims are not all that clever... nor do they stand alone as expressions of inherent truth. You are neither Yoda nor Bertrand Russell... you're not even Rush limbaugh or Don Imus... and you're definitely not Jesus or Plato, so stop with the little truisms.

If you want to sit at your computer all day and spin commandments about who should or should not die, or take on heirs of godhood, you might be better off draping a bedsheet around your neck and going outside (!?!?!) to find some followers.

I can see a scene right now:
Leveller, "Little old lady, you deserved to fall off of the steps of that bus because you are old and feeble. It is damn illogical, you know, to try to get on a bus after you've developed osteoperosis. I condemn thee!!!"