US Spec-Ops officially in Iran

Not only is that not even proof, it's not even evidence. What it is evidence, or even proof of, is how gullible you are. In first two links, you go even lower than CNN, and to worldnetdaily, one of the most least credible sites online and the third link is from washingtonpost and does not even mention Iran. All it does is speculate on the origin of 30 fighers who were said to be foreign origin, because they utilised foreign equipment.

However, suppose I did accept the first link from worldnetdaily at face-value, the allegations are made by "Iraqi Defense Minister Hazem Al-Shaalan" Sorry to burst your buble, but there is no Iraqi Defence Minister, let alone an Iraqi army. Iraq is under illegal US occupation, and the new created intern Iraqi government is nothing more than a token government. I mean come on, it does not take a rocket scientist to work that one out.

All you have, seekeroff, is heresay and speculation or propoganda. However, don't worry, I expected that. It's just painfuly ironic, that a person who does not the accept testimony of the disclosure project, would so easily accept propoganda on a few web sites as proof of foreign insurgency.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Your words are cheap to me.
You make wholesale blanket assertion and back them with nothing when questioned or confronted. You question others for sources to their assertions, yet produce none yourself. You then question sources when presented and yet, still have produced nothing to contest them or to the contrary.

Ironic? I think so.

Some can call it "berating," I simply choose to debate to the contrary. The problem here is that so few can back anything that they assert and then try to pass off as legit wholesale blanket assertions. If that is the norm in your life, so be it, but for some like me, your wholesale blanket assertions amount to wasted breathe and wholesale propaganda. Its laughable, and yet some here continue to take offense when their wholesale blanket statements get challenged. Ironic, also. This may be the internet, but you can best be assured that when I was a regular member, I contested just as I am confronting and contesting today as a moderator. And if I get dismissed or voluntarily step down, I would still confront and contest such. Hence, as long as I remain a member of this site, I will continue to contest and confront such propaganda such as your unfounded wholesale blanket statements.

As such, Indigo_Child, you will believe what you will, just as I. The difference here is that when making assertions and claims, some of us can back them with sourcing, whereas, you fail to produce anything of the kind.

Further irony.




seekerof

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Seekerof]

As such, Indigo_Child, you will believe what you will, just as I. The difference here is that when making assertions and claims, some of us can back them with sourcing, whereas, you fail to produce anything of the kind.

ROFL, do you actually hear yourself talk, or do you just put your fingers in your ears like in your avatar? You have not backed yourself up at all. What you've shown me can be characterized in this popular saying "the blind leading the blind"

Do you have any proof of Iran sponsoring insurgency, or are you going to concede to Iran and the disclosure project

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Sending military into a sovereign countries land is an act of war. I sincerely hope they get torn up into pieces.

What kind of statement is that coming from you?

You constantly make false claims about US military slaughters and so forth and complain about the deaths that are occurring over there.

Now you are not only advocating it, but hoping for it????

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Do you have any proof of Iran sponsoring insurgency, or are you going to concede to Iran and the disclosure project

I doubt very much that you will believe these but here:
IRAN AID
IRAN AID2

Any other questions?

People will tend to believe what they want to believe, as is their right. We all do it to some degree or another – some almost to the point of autism, based on what I read on ATS.

If people want to believe U.S. special forces are operating in Iran, they are free to do so. I personally suspect this to be the case, but I am not in a position to know one way or the other.

If people want to believe Irani forces are operating in Iraq, they are likewise free to do so. I personally believe this to be the case.

If people call for the death of U.S. troops, however, I call those people my enemies. I can say that with 100% certainty, because I'm the original source of that fact.

In exchange for supporting America's enemies, I will call for their own defeat, and celebrate it when it comes.

And you can take that to the bank.

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Any other questions?

Yeah, what is it that they put in your water?

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) explores the Middle East through the region's media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East.

Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501 (c)3 organization. MEMRI's headquarters is located in Washington, DC with branch offices in Berlin, London, and Jerusalem, where MEMRI also maintains its Media Center. MEMRI research is translated to English, German, Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish, Turkish, and Russian.

Does it make you more suspectible to propoganda? CNN and worldnews is one thing, but MERMI. I am not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

If people call for the death of U.S. troops, however, I call those people my enemies. I can say that with 100% certainty, because I'm the original source of that fact.

In exchange for supporting America's enemies, I will call for their own defeat, and celebrate it when it comes.

That is what you call taking sides Magic. Not only are you taking a side against Iran, even though you do not have any reason to support this war, other than the fact that the US government is calling for war against Iran and you are going to be behind it, because it is your country. You're are also taking sides against those who oppose it, and have publically declared how you would personally be celeberating their defeat. Your primitive thinking echoes what you don't want to accept, and that is the thinking of a Nazi.

It was these kind of thinking patterns that ushered in the Nazis and brought them into power. It really disturbs me, and scares me, when people like yourself who claim divine liscence, exhibit thinking that has always lead to our destruction. It further disturbs me, that someone as "inteligent" as yourself, would blindly and religiously follow their government, even when in wrong. What causes this?


[edit on 22-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]

I am sorry but this is such a BS. Usually if you are sending a team to another country to spy and gather intelligent, you are not gonna announce it all over the world. Plus Iranian intelligent agency is very strong inside of Iran so if this is true which I think not, they will be captured sooner or later and you what would happen when they get captured?

Pointing Out The Obvious

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
That is what you call taking sides Magic.

Yes, as a matter of fact, that is precisely what I called it, per the title of my post (“Freedom To Choose Self-Deception, Freedom To Choose Sides”).

I'm not sure why you saw fit to repeat that, but that wouldn't be the only thing you've posted that is puzzling me.

Sleeping With The Enemy

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Not only are you taking a side against Iran, even though you do not have any reason to support this war, other than the fact that the US government is calling for war against Iran and you are going to be behind it, because it is your country.

Your presumptions about me are wrong.

I most definitely have my reasons for taking sides, and not only because I'm an American, although that would be good enough if it comes to war.

You are also wrong to claim that the U.S. is calling for war against Iran – it has not. You would also be wrong to assume that I am calling for war against Iran, because I am not doing so and never have.

I am of the opinion that an actual war with Iran would be disastrous for the U.S. and that instead we should encourage the people of Iran to do what they've been wanting to do for years: take their country back from the religious oligarchy that controls it now.

But like all oppressive regimes, the Iranian government won't go away without a fight, so we will need to support the people of Iran in meaningful ways, although sending in divisions of troops is not the way I would recommend.

You will never understand my reasons or opinions if you insist on making false assumptions about them, mischaracterizing them and attempting to put your words in my mouth.

That's very unsanitary and I recommend against trying it.

What Taking Sides Means, Restated

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
You're are also taking sides against those who oppose it, and have publically declared how you would personally be celeberating their defeat.

At the risk of yet again pointing out the obvious, you yourself so thoughtfully explained what “taking sides” means in the same post, yet the concept seems difficult for you here.

Yes, I do oppose those who oppose what I support – by their own decisions they have taken a side opposed to mine and declared themselves my enemy. I'm not sure why you're having trouble with this.

The enemies of the United States are my enemies. That's how that works. Human history backs me up rather eloquently on this point.

And yes, I intend to celebrate the defeat of America's enemies. I don't think it would make much sense to celebrate their victory if they won. I want the enemies of the U.S. to lose.

Again, I am utterly mystified by what you're posting here. I really don't understand that sort of thinking, and not sure I want to. It just doesn't make any sense, and that's never a good sign.

Godwin's Law In Action

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Your primitive thinking echoes what you don't want to accept, and that is the thinking of a Nazi.

Speaking of primitive thinking, here's your Godwin Award.

I'm sorry you were unable to address the topic without invoking Nazis in an unsuccessful attempt to discredit me, but in light of your behavior and the opinions you have already expressed in this thread, it is not terribly surprising. Just disappointing.

You are headed in the wrong direction, and may want to stop and take stock of what you're saying, because it's only getting worse, and making less sense as the thread progresses.

What Real Nazis Think

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
It was these kind of thinking patterns that ushered in the Nazis and brought them into power.

No, it was hatred and a lust for dominance that carried the Nazis into power, combined with a desperate economic situation in Germany and the willingness of people to believe lies they wanted to believe.

For an example of real Nazi-style thinking, I recommend reading Mein Kampf or perusing the Aryan Nations website rather than pointing fingers at your fellow ATS members and falsely labeling them with such vile terms.

Licensed By The Department Of Divinity?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
It really disturbs me, and scares me, when people like yourself who claim divine liscence, exhibit thinking that has always lead to our destruction.

“Divine license”? I have made no such claim in this thread or elsewhere. This statement is false, as is the premise behind it, and is nothing more than an attempt to continue your ad hominem attack against me.

If you are referring to my posts on spiritual topics, you may want to revisit them and correct your misperceptions.

Despite your obvious hostility toward me and other U.S. citizens, I can still hope that you might find a path out of darkness.

Until then, however, I have no plans to join you there, and hope to see that which you advocate fail – preferably with a minimum of harm to all involved, including America's enemies.

Winners And Losers

There is a difference between celebrating the defeat of one's enemies and celebrating their destruction, although that point is often lost on those who seek only destruction.

The U.S. has a history of defeating its enemies, but not destroying them. I think the people of Europe and east Asia know what I am talking about here, and you should, too.

I am calling for the defeat of America's enemies, which I will celebrate. I would not call for the kind of destruction nations like Germany and Japan visited upon their enemies, however, which was nothing to celebrate.

Knowing the nature of the parties involved, I find your choice of sides both revealing and troubling.

Lest you or anyone else misunderstand my sentiment in my last post, by the way, if you are in fact calling for the deaths of U.S. troops, then yes, I am calling for your defeat. I do not want to see what you appear to be advocating come to pass.

However, I am not calling for your destruction, just your defeat – and hopefully repentance for choosing sides poorly.

Reading The Wrong Mind

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
It further disturbs me, that someone as "inteligent" as yourself, would blindly and religiously follow their government, even when in wrong. What causes this?

You apparently know nothing about either my eyesight or beliefs, nor do you honestly respect my intelligence, based on what you have posted – right down to the quotation marks around “inteligent”.

I'm not what disturbs you, and I don't want to be your straw man. The real argument here appears to be between you and yourself.

If you truly believed you were right, you would make your case convincingly – as I know you can when you are right – and not resort to personal attacks. They are driven by nothing more than your own fear of being wrong.

In a rare departure from my general philosophies, I recommend listening to that fear, because you are wrong, that is why you are afraid.

Off-Topic But On-Topic

I can't read your mind, but I can read your posts. Based on what I'm reading, I am concerned about you.

After this post I am planning to take a break for a while. I recommend that you do the same and think about the positions you are taking here.

I know you are an indigo child, and love that about you, but there is a darkness in your tone that tells me something is wrong, something out of the ordinary. This goes beyond the usual scrappiness I've seen in you (and like).

And no, I'm not trying to do some sort of back-handed attack on you or undermine your opinions by making these observations. These are my honest opinions based on what I'm reading here.

I get wound up about stuff too, we all do, that's part of the fun of being human. I know darkness very well, I still have plenty of it in myself, I assure you.

But watch out, because I think you're not yourself right now. Let's both relax and meditate on these matters.

Your presumptions about me are wrong.

I most definitely have my reasons for taking sides, and not only because I'm an American, although that would be good enough if it comes to war.

You are also wrong to claim that the U.S. is calling for war against Iran – it has not. You would also be wrong to assume that I am calling for war against Iran, because I am not doing so and never have.

Oh, how wrong of me. I did not know you were not supporting the war on Iraq, oops, I mean Iran. And I honestly thought I had you figured out. I really should stop listening to my BS detector and intuition.

I am of the opinion that an actual war with Iran would be disastrous for the U.S. and that instead we should encourage the people of Iran to do what they've been wanting to do for years: take their country back from the religious oligarchy that controls it now.

Oh, yes, absolutely. I completely agree with you.

But

Oh, but there is a BUT - here comes the small print:

like all oppressive regimes, the Iranian government won't go away without a fight, so we will need to support the people of Iran in meaningful ways, although sending in divisions of troops is not the way I would recommend.

Wonderful. So, now you can tell me why "we" need to get rid of the "oppressive" Iranian government? You can also tell who told you they were "oppressed"?

And finally tell me how "we" should get rid of them. However, I am still glad, you don't support the war on Iran.

Yes, I do oppose those who oppose what I support – by their own decisions they have taken a side opposed to mine and declared themselves my enemy. I'm not sure why you're having trouble with this.

Wow, please remind me never to disagree with you. The last thing I want is become the enemy of a sorcerer.

And yes, I intend to celebrate the defeat of America's enemies. I don't think it would make much sense to celebrate their victory if they won. I want the enemies of the U.S. to lose.

Whose "America" and whose "America's enemies"
It appears from your above statement, that those who not support America, are America's enemies, and your enemies too. It appears more than 50% do not support the American state? Are they the enemies? That would be the only logical conclusion to reach from your statement above. No, surely you did not mean this. You meant "enemies of democracy" and "terrorists" as marked in the Patriot Act and Bush New World Order speech. So who are they?

Speaking of primitive thinking, here's your Godwin Award .

I'm sorry you were unable to address the topic without invoking Nazis in an unsuccessful attempt to discredit me, but in light of your behavior and the opinions you have already expressed in this thread, it is not terribly surprising. Just disappointing.

You are headed in the wrong direction, and may want to stop and take stock of what you're saying, because it's only getting worse, and making less sense as the thread progresses.

Don't you just love philosophy? In this really abstract world of the sea of concepts, each concept clashing against each other, making waves in the ocean, yet always returning to the original state of calmess and tranquility. I like it when the sea if calm and tranquill. So, please for the sake of tranquility and soudness of mind, let's leave the philosophy to the philosophers. Meanwhile, I can explain to you "Nazi thinking" was the thinking exhibited by the German people in Nazi Germany, where they blindly believed in the state, sheepishly followed it's policies, it's wars and said "our enemy is the enemy of Germany" and rallied behind the state loyally.

Can you tell me, why that does not apply to you? Did you not just say "My enemy is the enemy of America" and just before then "My enemy is one who does not support me" and did you pretty much not just echo a lot of what is contained within the Patriot Act and Bush foreign policy? You also repeated the same allegation that Iran is an oppressive government.

No, it was hatred and a lust for dominance that carried the Nazis into power, combined with a desperate economic situation in Germany and the willingness of people to believe lies they wanted to believe.

Yup, sounds like the the same thing I'm hearing from you. And if $8 trillion+ debt is not an desperate economic situation, then I don't know what is.

“Divine license”? I have made no such claim in this thread or elsewhere. This statement is false, as is the premise behind it, and is nothing more than an attempt to continue your ad hominem attack against me.

I am very sorry, I thought when you said you were the "prophet Yoshi" and you were going to become very famous and that archangels were your lovers, or something like that, and you had magical powers, I thought you meant it. I should have known you were joking.

There is a difference between celebrating the defeat of one's enemies and celebrating their destruction, although that point is often lost on those who seek only destruction.

The U.S. has a history of defeating its enemies, but not destroying them. I think the people of Europe and east Asia know what I am talking about here, and you should, too.

I am calling for the defeat of America's enemies, which I will celebrate. I would not call for the kind of destruction nations like Germany and Japan visited upon their enemies, however, which was nothing to celebrate.

There is a difference between destroying your enemy and defeating them? How does one distinguish between them, Magic?

I can't read your mind, but I can read your posts. Based on what I'm reading, I am concerned about you.

I can't you read you, but I can see through you. No, not magical powers, just a very good BS detector.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Your venomous statement after your assertion of what is portrayed as an "act of war" speaks greatly about you and your character, let alone, speaks for itself.
seekerof

It sure does Seek, for some reason she hates all cops in fact at time I thinks perhaps she hates everyone. This is JMHO and not an attack in anyway. I am simply stating what I have also seen in her posts.

Advice Unheeded

Indigo_Child, I'm sorry to see you didn't take my advice on relaxing and meditating on this, but that decision is yours to make.

In the interest of not wanting to turning this thread into an alt.flame-style series of ever-growing point/counterpoint cascades, I'll try to stay on the concepts, avoid excessive quoting and not drift into meaningless quibbling.

My Opinions Belong To Me, Not You

First off, you clearly don't have me “figured out”, and your own posts are irrefutable proof of that. You say as much yourself, using those precise words, in fact, so you have conceded that you don't know my position – yet choose to argue against it anyway.

That is irrational, and why I believe you are arguing against a straw man of your own construction instead of me. I'm feeling sort of left out of the discussion because of that. Your own words betray you.

When you find yourself arguing with someone about what their own opinions are, you are already wrong by definition. You are not a higher authority about what my opinions are than I am, and I hope you may eventually come to see the fallacy of taking such a stance.

Is Iran “Oppressive”?

Your opinion on what constitutes oppression may differ from mine. I consider mass arrests, summary executions and the terrorizing of the people by its government to be oppression.

But don't take my word for it, let's ask someone else, like Amnesty International, who has thoughtfully documented these things for those of us who might prefer to remain ignorant about the topic. I won't even bother to mention the thousands of accounts by victims and survivors that can be found online, but here's a google for “iran” “oppression” (about 302,000 hits) for those who value information over opinion.

If you are trying to suggest that the government of Iran is not oppressive, you are aligning yourself with darkness. Don't expect me to go along with you in defending murderers and thugs.

And don't think that pointing a finger at others, such as a U.S. straw man, excuses the crimes of the leaders of Iran's repressive regime. Informed observers know better than that, and are not fooled by it.

False Deities

My statements regarding my spiritual adventures and Yoshiel are available for anyone to read. They are essentially a permanent fixture in my signature block because I think people deserve to know about them when evaluating my opinions, for good or ill.

Here are the links, just as they appear now, in case I ever remove them from my signature block:

[color=#663300]A Tale of Majic: Confessions Of A Dark Sorceror [color=#663300]-- My Spiritual Journey
[color=#660099]Fact Or Fancy? Predictions Of The Prophet Yoshiel [color=#660099]-- You Decide

My spiritual experiences changed me forever, so I figure people ought to know -- whether they consider them spiritual or simply psychotic. Perhaps the difference is meaningless. I leave that to the reader to decide.

Thus your bitter and libelous statements about my spiritual writings can be easily refuted by anyone who takes the time to read my own words on the topic. You are not gaining any debate points by calling attention to my spiritual background.

Why you would choose to slander me in ways that can be so easily disproven is a mystery to me, but such things are not the hallmarks of a person who embraces love and light – or possesses spiritual integrity.

Be mindful of your statements, they are defining your position far more clearly than you may realize. Such is the nature of darkness that its deception works mainly on those who embrace it.

And yes, I am saying in no uncertain terms that you are embracing darkness. No need to mince words about it, you are doing the same thing all who walk in darkness do, since darkness is nothing more than deceit at its heart. Self-deceit, in fact, just like what is on display here.

This is not a put-down or “holier-than-thou” ivory tower stance. I know darkness very, very well, as anyone who has read my threads on the topic should know.

Been there, done that, which is why I am not afraid to point it out where I see it.

Let's Cut To The Chase

I know you're wrong because your own words contradict you. When you depart from reason, there can be no reasoning with you. So there's really nothing more we can do on that front.

You and I are both spiritual people, and accept spiritual perceptions as input when we examine world events. Neither of us is either perfect or infallible, as I have admitted and as I hope you can agree.

I'm telling you flat out that your “BS detector” is out of calibration. You are making claims that don't even stand up on their own merits. Your own words are proving you wrong.

When that happens, you are – by my definition, anyway – taking the “dark side” of the discussion, and that path leads nowhere but down.

Why I Am So Sure Of Myself For A Change

Lest you misunderstand me, I'm saying you are wrong because you are saying you're wrong. Anyone who knows me knows that I am extremely cautious about claiming I am “sure” of anything.

But in this case, I am sure you are wrong. As certain as I can be. Is that because I am deceiving myself, or because I see the inherent fallacy of your position? Only an honest answer can suffice here, and I am hoping to lead you toward it.

I challenge you to go back and read our posts and pretend our roles are reversed. If you do so honestly, you will see what I mean. If you cannot do that, then you are tacitly admitting that your arguments do not meet an objective test of reason.

If that is the case, then there is no reasoning with you, and thus no hope of reaching a reasonable agreement.

I urge you to drop the sarcasm, mocking and self-delusion, and see that what is really going on between you and me has much less to do with Iran than matters that are far more significant.

Or you may choose to descend further into darkness. The choice is yours.

My advice is to be wary of that seductive but painful road.


[edit on 1/24/2005 by Majic]