*****Republican National Convention thread. Let the games begin.*****

Both Candidates are garbage and both Candidates bring extremely negative things to the oval office. Either way, we are screwed. The question is however, can we withstand 4 years of Trump's mouth or 8 years of Hillary and her lies and deception? Because if Trump wins, I don't see a second term in his future, but its extremely possible for Hillary because well, shes a Clinton and everything has a price when you're a Clinton. Just ask Bernie.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

By the way, I agree that Alinsky's teachings are very apparent these days - it would seem the world he wanted is the world we are living in.

I would say, rather, that Mr. Alinsky stated some very basic, obvious things about human behavior in groups, that any good politician has known for years.

Have you ever compared Rules for Radicals with The Prince or The Art of War for example?

Alinsky just isn't the demon that he's been portrayed as by the Right in recent years. If Glenn Beck hadn't resurrected him, no one today would even recognize the name.

In my opinion.

You may have hit the nail on the head with one of your statements there.. 'any good politician has known for years'.
The machiavellian nature of our elected officials is at the very core of why Trump won the nomination - in my view.

originally posted by: -Blackout-
Both Candidates are garbage and both Candidates bring extremely negative things to the oval office. Either way, we are screwed. The question is however, can we withstand 4 years of Trump's mouth or 8 years of Hillary and her lies and deception? Because if Trump wins, I don't see a second term in his future, but its extremely possible for Hillary because well, shes a Clinton and everything has a price. Just ask Bernie.

And Trump the ultimate businessman turned politician; doesn't realize everything has a price?

See your disconnect?

originally posted by: SonOfThor
a reply to: Gryphon66

That is a solid analysis. I am keeping my eyes and ears open to his actual speech to close out the convention. I am wondering if he will actually get into details of his platform, or continue his same style of psychological marketing.

Tonight is a big one - Cruz, Rubio, Gingrich... I haven't watched all the speeches, but have heard that some of the speakers barely mentioned Trump themselves, and rather focused on 'the party' and 'winning elections'.

I know of many republicans who are seriously leaning Johnson now, particularly in Virginia, when they went with Rubio or Rand Paul during the primary may be swayed to Trump if the rest of the candidates can provide cogent arguments to do so. Very interested in the speeches tonight.

I'd be glad to see something other than "political theatre" from Mr. Trump. I even *gasp* agree with some of the few policy positions he *seems* to have taken. However, the dark-side/under-belly of the Republican beast I do not want to see given carte blanche on the national stage any more than it has been. We had a tiny taste of that under Bush II ... and we're still recovering from that.

I used to enjoy aspects of the "character" that Mr. Trump played on TV. I have always admired his basic "chutzpah" in terms of business, and the same time I know a few of the realities of that world, of that level of real estate development, and I know the price paid for the Trump level of "success."

We'll see. Maybe I'll end up voting Trump after all. LOL. (In some wild alternate Mandala-Effect universe.)

originally posted by: -Blackout-
Both Candidates are garbage and both Candidates bring extremely negative things to the oval office. Either way, we are screwed. The question is however, can we withstand 4 years of Trump's mouth or 8 years of Hillary and her lies and deception? Because if Trump wins, I don't see a second term in his future, but its extremely possible for Hillary because well, shes a Clinton and everything has a price when you're a Clinton. Just ask Bernie.

I also think Trump is a one term deal if he wins.... He'll be 74, I think, in 2020. Not too old, but I rather think he will be frustrated at the slow pace.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: -Blackout-
Both Candidates are garbage and both Candidates bring extremely negative things to the oval office. Either way, we are screwed. The question is however, can we withstand 4 years of Trump's mouth or 8 years of Hillary and her lies and deception? Because if Trump wins, I don't see a second term in his future, but its extremely possible for Hillary because well, shes a Clinton and everything has a price. Just ask Bernie.

And Trump the ultimate businessman turned politician; doesn't realize everything has a price?

See your disconnect?

At least Trump *PRETENDS* that he loves America. I question whether or not Hillary actually does.

a reply to: neo96

Why not just grab the link then. LOL.
Yeah. Not funny really.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

By the way, I agree that Alinsky's teachings are very apparent these days - it would seem the world he wanted is the world we are living in.

I would say, rather, that Mr. Alinsky stated some very basic, obvious things about human behavior in groups, that any good politician has known for years.

Have you ever compared Rules for Radicals with The Prince or The Art of War for example?

Alinsky just isn't the demon that he's been portrayed as by the Right in recent years. If Glenn Beck hadn't resurrected him, no one today would even recognize the name.

In my opinion.

You may have hit the nail on the head with one of your statements there.. 'any good politician has known for years'.
The machiavellian nature of our elected officials is at the very core of why Trump won the nomination - in my view.

Yep, I hear that explanation ... I just don't see it. Trump merely seems to hearken after an older generation of politician ... George Wallace, Huey Long, William Jennings Bryan, etc.

My estimate ... the character Trump is portraying is classic populist rabble-rouser.

Or maybe this is rather "my hope."

a reply to: UKTruth


I am really trying not to rain on anyone's parade in this thread, but IF Trump is elected I don't think he'll last 4 years.

When he realizes just how LIMITED the President's powers really are, and how deeply entrenched POLITICAL CYA is in the Congress (both "sides") I think he'd cut his losses and go on to something new and more interesting to him.

In my opinion.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

By the way, I agree that Alinsky's teachings are very apparent these days - it would seem the world he wanted is the world we are living in.

I would say, rather, that Mr. Alinsky stated some very basic, obvious things about human behavior in groups, that any good politician has known for years.

Have you ever compared Rules for Radicals with The Prince or The Art of War for example?

Alinsky just isn't the demon that he's been portrayed as by the Right in recent years. If Glenn Beck hadn't resurrected him, no one today would even recognize the name.

In my opinion.

You may have hit the nail on the head with one of your statements there.. 'any good politician has known for years'.
The machiavellian nature of our elected officials is at the very core of why Trump won the nomination - in my view.

Yep, I hear that explanation ... I just don't see it. Trump merely seems to hearken after an older generation of politician ... George Wallace, Huey Long, William Jennings Bryan, etc.

My estimate ... the character Trump is portraying is classic populist rabble-rouser.

Or maybe this is rather "my hope."

That's my impression as well. It's also the reason that Trump will get his butt kicked in the general election. The popular vote simply isn't there imo. Trump just scares to many people.

Clinton can't win.....but Trump can lose.

Hillary's top two VP choices aren't exactly that great either. Both of them have negatives too. In fact, a lot of Leftist's dislike Vilsack and Kaine isn't that liked universally. This is probably because a lot of folks don't want to be associated with her, so shes digging around in the scrap heap.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

By the way, I agree that Alinsky's teachings are very apparent these days - it would seem the world he wanted is the world we are living in.

I would say, rather, that Mr. Alinsky stated some very basic, obvious things about human behavior in groups, that any good politician has known for years.

Have you ever compared Rules for Radicals with The Prince or The Art of War for example?

Alinsky just isn't the demon that he's been portrayed as by the Right in recent years. If Glenn Beck hadn't resurrected him, no one today would even recognize the name.

In my opinion.

You may have hit the nail on the head with one of your statements there.. 'any good politician has known for years'.
The machiavellian nature of our elected officials is at the very core of why Trump won the nomination - in my view.

Yep, I hear that explanation ... I just don't see it. Trump merely seems to hearken after an older generation of politician ... George Wallace, Huey Long, William Jennings Bryan, etc.

My estimate ... the character Trump is portraying is classic populist rabble-rouser.

Or maybe this is rather "my hope."

Populist, yes. Rabble rouser, for sure. But the rabble have to have something to get roused about.
People who get let down over and over again eventually lose faith completely and are ripe for tearing up the system (and in some cases even for revenge).
There is little doubt in my mind that Trump has tapped into this, though I am not sure it is as calculated as some would say. From his interviews over the years I genuinely believe he is one of the people who feels let down time and time again by the govt.

Funny how the top story on google news is still Meliana's speech.


A haiku:

Spin spin spin, please stop!

No! distract, deflect, deny!

See the big picture.



Disturbing to see how easily lead people have become, but after decades of attacks on the educational system and the forcing of common core (and other equally useless programs) upon public schools while leaving the private schools (like the ones politicians families send their kids to) exempt from such 'progress' has produced generations of people who do not have the ability to think about things critically and instead depend upon the media when forming opinions and ideas about how things should operate in the world.

This has lead to the accepted notion that "all politicians lie," and that corruption is "business as usual," once you reach a certain level within the halls of power.

Just because that is how things have developed does not mean that it has to be accepted as fact and worked around rather than addressed directly.

We didn't get to where we are overnight, and so we won't be able to extract ourselves from the pit quickly.

The United States Constitution presents a framework within which the trappings of power can be exercised and any changes to that should be looked at extremely closely. There are indeed changes that should be made, but they should not be taken lightly, nor should they lead our country in the opposite direction from which that document (along with the Declaration of Independence) originally pointed us toward.

That of freedom from unassailable power and the ability for each and every person who has the desire, and will to make happen, to better themselves.

We need to not only raise the bar, we also need to look at raising the mean.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: -Blackout-
Both Candidates are garbage and both Candidates bring extremely negative things to the oval office. Either way, we are screwed. The question is however, can we withstand 4 years of Trump's mouth or 8 years of Hillary and her lies and deception? Because if Trump wins, I don't see a second term in his future, but its extremely possible for Hillary because well, shes a Clinton and everything has a price when you're a Clinton. Just ask Bernie.

I also think Trump is a one term deal if he wins.... He'll be 74, I think, in 2020. Not too old, but I rather think he will be frustrated at the slow pace.

unless in quits in feb. 2017, making Pence POTUS.....that's the secret plan of the GOP, that's the theory I have....trump will make some type of big deal that he needs to run his businesses on a full time basis, and he can no longer be president......and one branch of our government is turned over to a uber-Christian right-wing nutjob...

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

By the way, I agree that Alinsky's teachings are very apparent these days - it would seem the world he wanted is the world we are living in.

I would say, rather, that Mr. Alinsky stated some very basic, obvious things about human behavior in groups, that any good politician has known for years.

Have you ever compared Rules for Radicals with The Prince or The Art of War for example?

Alinsky just isn't the demon that he's been portrayed as by the Right in recent years. If Glenn Beck hadn't resurrected him, no one today would even recognize the name.

In my opinion.

You may have hit the nail on the head with one of your statements there.. 'any good politician has known for years'.
The machiavellian nature of our elected officials is at the very core of why Trump won the nomination - in my view.

Yep, I hear that explanation ... I just don't see it. Trump merely seems to hearken after an older generation of politician ... George Wallace, Huey Long, William Jennings Bryan, etc.

My estimate ... the character Trump is portraying is classic populist rabble-rouser.

Or maybe this is rather "my hope."

That's my impression as well. It's also the reason that Trump will get his butt kicked in the general election.

Clinton can't win.....but Trump can lose.

I don't think Trump will get his "butt kicked". Look at it this way. A LOT of people who listen to Hillary talk, do you know what they hear? LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES. That is what people hear, whether shes actually lying or not. So in other words, whatever debate she brings to the table will be heard and looked at as a grain of salt by a lot more people than we all realize. So in the end, it might not even matter how well Trump debates her because Hillary has an extremely crappy track record and her overall credibility is shot within a lot of circles.

Hillary has already been there. Trump hasn't yet. So we have nothing to gauge Trump on like we do with Hillary when it comes to what these people actually say and if they do what they say. So when you a take a "known" that has already been in the oval office trenches and couple that with having a horrible track record, and compare that to an "unknown", most will take the "unknown" if for no other reason than it cannot possibly be as bad as what was already there before.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: UKTruth


I am really trying not to rain on anyone's parade in this thread, but IF Trump is elected I don't think he'll last 4 years.

When he realizes just how LIMITED the President's powers really are, and how deeply entrenched POLITICAL CYA is in the Congress (both "sides") I think he'd cut his losses and go on to something new and more interesting to him.

In my opinion.

That is what my thinking too on why he will leave after 4 years. He might go earlier, but if he did it might hurt his business interests. He would have let a lot of people down.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

Any chance you'll run for POTUS?

I agree with every line you wrote there. (Which is scary.)

LOL.

a reply to: UKTruth

From what I've seen with Mr. Trump over his career, there really are only two options: either it will go exceptionally well or horrendously bad.

There's no middle with Trump.

a reply to: SonOfThor

Thank You for your reply. And I'll be honest back. Until I read It's Even Worse Than It Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided With the New Politics of Extremism by Ornstein and Mann, I didn't understand how it all works. Why a third party will not help at the national level.

We were established as a nation of compromise. It took compromise to establish this nation. And our party structure, and hence governing power, was established with this idea of compromise. Other countries may have two parties, but they assign control of power differently. We depend on compromise between two parties to function.

What has happened the last few decades is that one party in power became ideologically pure and refused to compromise. And in fact, very little could then be accomplished.

As our political parties became more ideologically distinct and competitively balanced in their electoral struggle to control the White House and Congress, they took on the characteristics of their parliamentary counterparts: internally unified and fiercely oppositional. But parliamentary-like parties in a presidential or separation-of-powers system—one prone to divided government and clashing mandates—are a formula for willful obstruction and policy irresolution.

source article-- a good read

So much more could be said, but that's the gist.

And, it's not just the polarization we must deal with...

Look at where the R convention is held..... Quicken Loans Arena
Look at where the D convention will be held..... Wells Fargo Center

When I grew up, Americans were proud of their buildings, naming them after American national or local heroes, names of history (Coliseum). Recent times? Corporations. That, my friend, is where we went wrong.

Since 1980, We the People allowed corporations to take over the institutions we valued, like government, and political parties. We did not fight corporate take over, because we were too busy fighting each other over social issues.

Realistically, a third party vote at the national level, while it might make us feel good, will do nothing to make us a better nation. Because of the way we vote and allot power, we have no third party capable of governing at the national level.

I wish I could give you good news, but I can't. The future? It's not up to me, I'll be dead. It's you young people who have to take back power from corporations and billionaires. Get corporate money and billionaire influence out of Washington. In fact, get it out of your states, while you're at it. It won't be easy, but fighting of this magnitude never is.