Atlantis and the Biblical City of Tyre (2 parts)

originally posted by: damonjc
a reply to: Byrd

Yes, I'm referring to something completely different. Basically, both Platonism and Gnosticism evolved out of concepts that were already extant in the Egyptian system of worship, but whereas both Platonism and Gnosticism considered matter to be "evil," the ancient Egyptians did not. Still, the dualistic concepts in Platonism and Gnosticism had their antecedents in Egyptian beliefs.

Okay... I spent a lot of time looking this one up, because it didn't make sense in terms of the writing and culture and artifacts of ancient Egypt.

Yes, Gnosticism started in Egypt... -BUT - it started among the Jews in Alexandria, which was a Greek city there in Egypt. Nothing in their religion or math led to any of the Platonic concepts

Plato, himself, never visited Egypt

Egypt of that era was not a place where much in the arts and literature were developing. After a brief period of independence, they were overrun by Cambysis and absorbed into his empire as a slave state. Low level revolts occurred and one was successful - the prince of Sais. If you read up on this, you notice a lot of non-Egyptian names. In general, the people were reduced to being pretty much slaves or serfs under foreign rulers. The 30th dynasty collapse was pretty inevitable, with no one strong ruler and a pack of people claiming thrones for themselves.

The world concept of the Egyptians was changing as these incoming rulers introduced gods and religions that were not part of the pre-conquest Egyptian religion The people resisted, but at the level of the elites (who were jostling for positions of power with their new masters, we see the introduction and worship of deities such as the Ptolemies, Serapis, Hermes Trismagus, and so forth.

So, yes, both those had some sources in the Alexandria of the Greek Ptolemaic times, when the Ptolemies ruled with an iron fist and Alexandria was a city for Greek elites (Egyptians were working class peasants - those with some wealth gave themselves Greek names like "Manetho" and absorbed the Greek culture.)

But Platonism and Gnosticism are not based in ancient Egyptian (i.e., dating to before 3,000 BC) beliefs.



... which returns to my original question: "So what is this 'ancient wisdom of Atlantis' that the world got from Egypt and other ancient civilizations?"


References: (I have tried to stick to things that are easily accessible on the Internet rather that some of my other material.)

Yamauchi, Edwin M. "The Descent of Ishtar, the Fall of Sophia, and the Jewish Roots of Gnosticism." Tyndale Bulletin 29.143 (1978): 75. (available as a PDF)

Mastrocinque, Attilio. "From Jewish Magic to Gnosticism." (2005).

DeConick, April D., and Grant Adamson, eds. Histories of the Hidden God: Concealment and Revelation in Western Gnostic, Esoteric, and Mystical Traditions. Routledge, 2016. (can be read online as a Google Book, talks about the Hellenistic Egypt origins of Gnosticism)

Rudolph, Kurt. Gnosis: The nature and history of Gnosticism. A&C Black, 2001. (available as a PDF - in German - English version is available on Google Books

Morgan, Kathryn A. Myth and Philosophy from the Presocratics to Plato. Cambridge University Press, 2000. (available as a PDF)

Waterfield, Robin. The first philosophers: the presocratics and sophists. Oxford Paperbacks, 2000. (available as a PDF)

originally posted by: damonjc
The basic meaning of "tanniyn" is "something elongated".

Is that translation from the fringe book of biblical words, the root that the word is derived from means "elongated", that says nothing to the usage...

originally posted by: damonjc
But if Pharaoh is being described as a tanniyn in the Nile River, then the most likely interpretation is a crocodile, not a whale, dragon, or whatever.

No, you are being literal, while the text is symbolic. Tanniyn being a sea monster is the most powerful aquatic creature that the authors had as a reference. Why would they allude to Pharoah being a crocodile when crocodiles were easily hunted. Much more likely to say "all powerful", rather than "potential suitcase"
Again, you are deciding on your own biblical interpretations, which is why you will never see this get anywhere...
if you are happy to use your own interpretations then you aren't sticking to the facts, you are deciding what the facts are.

a reply to: Byrd

Fyi, in order to answer what you wrote, it would really help if I had access to my books which are in storage. Since I don't, and won't for a while yet, I'd have to go back and read the original source texts (or rather, online translations thereof) to show you where I'm getting my concepts from.

I'm not blowing you off, but I've been extremely busy with work lately and don't have 3-4 hours to go read source texts and find what I'm looking for.

Hopefully in the next few weeks, I'll have time to both look at a couple of your references that you posted above, AND find the quotes I'm looking for.

Damon

It's been several weeks and I haven't had a large amount of free time to grab specific citations. What I did do was locate one of the *concepts* that I was referencing in my earlier post.

One of the so-called "places" that the Egyptian coffin texts reference is a place called "Rostau" which is in the "duat". The duat was seen as the underworld/netherworld/otherworld through which the dead must travel. It was represented in heaven by the Milky Way. However, "Rostau" also had a physical location on Earth -- in a tunnel system underneath the pyramids of Giza. It was a cultic location that paralleled the heavenly "Rostau" in the Milky Way.

This is one specific instance of the general principle of dualism that I was talking about before. This sort of dualism later evolved (with help from other influences, as you rightly pointed out) into Gnosticism.

A few posts ago you were pointing out that, for instance, Orion was two constellations to the Egyptians, not just one, that Horus changed quite a bit during the history of ancient Egypt, etc. All very true. What I was talking about when I mentioned an "Atlantean wisdom tradition" wasn't a specific mythology, but rather the whole idea that a specific (dualistic) understanding would be sufficient to progress to the afterlife. This, coupled with highly advanced knowledge of cyclopean architecture and astronomical observation.

Damon

originally posted by: damonjc
One of the so-called "places" that the Egyptian coffin texts reference is a place called "Rostau" which is in the "duat". The duat was seen as the underworld/netherworld/otherworld through which the dead must travel.

Not quite. It was the place where Osiris lived in the underworld.

It was represented in heaven by the Milky Way.

Is there a source for this? The sources I use say that it's the body of the sky goddess Nut.

However, "Rostau" also had a physical location on Earth -- in a tunnel system underneath the pyramids of Giza. It was a cultic location that paralleled the heavenly "Rostau" in the Milky Way.

There's no tunnels under Giza and by the time of the Coffin Texts, it was Abydos that was the host of the Osirian mysteries.

Giza is not a terribly important location to the ancient Egyptians - that distinction belongs to Abydos which also has the Osirion. In their funerary texts, they write about their dearest wish for the afterlife is to be able to sail to Abydos to participate in the festivals. On one feast day, priests would set up model boats pointing towards Abydos so that the deceased could travel there for the feasts.

a rather lenghty discussion of this is at this link

This is one specific instance of the general principle of dualism that I was talking about before. This sort of dualism later evolved (with help from other influences, as you rightly pointed out) into Gnosticism.

A few posts ago you were pointing out that, for instance, Orion was two constellations to the Egyptians, not just one, that Horus changed quite a bit during the history of ancient Egypt, etc. All very true. What I was talking about when I mentioned an "Atlantean wisdom tradition" wasn't a specific mythology, but rather the whole idea that a specific (dualistic) understanding would be sufficient to progress to the afterlife.

... which doesn't seem to appear anywhere in Egyptian thought - and we know that this changes over time. Originally, only the king gets the afterlife with Osiris; after the First Intermediate period, the afterlife is treated as something to which all souls go.

I think that if you actually search it out, you will find that there really isn't an "Atlantean wisdom tradition" - it's kind of a hodge-podge of 19th Christian mysticism that varies depending on who's talking about it and that doesn't actually mesh well with any ancient belief system (once you dig beneath the surface.)

Were you waiting to pounce or something? I noticed your reply came in half an hour after my initial post...at midnight. o_O

originally posted by: Byrd
Not quite. It (Rostau) was the place where Osiris lived in the underworld.

It was represented in heaven by the Milky Way.

Is there a source for this? The sources I use say that it's the body of the sky goddess Nut.

Of course, and the Milky Way being the birth canal of Nut makes perfect sense as the underworld/duat through which the dead must travel in order to be reborn in the heavens.

There's no tunnels under Giza and by the time of the Coffin Texts, it was Abydos that was the host of the Osirian mysteries.

Giza is not a terribly important location to the ancient Egyptians - that distinction belongs to Abydos which also has the Osirion. In their funerary texts, they write about their dearest wish for the afterlife is to be able to sail to Abydos to participate in the festivals. On one feast day, priests would set up model boats pointing towards Abydos so that the deceased could travel there for the feasts.

Yes, there are tunnels under Giza which were discovered in 2013. See this article. And whether or not Giza originally had these tunnels, the point is that the ancient Egyptians saw fit to mirror features of heaven (e.g., Rostau) on Earth.

A few posts ago you were pointing out that, for instance, Orion was two constellations to the Egyptians, not just one, that Horus changed quite a bit during the history of ancient Egypt, etc. All very true. What I was talking about when I mentioned an "Atlantean wisdom tradition" wasn't a specific mythology, but rather the whole idea that a specific (dualistic) understanding would be sufficient to progress to the afterlife.

... which doesn't seem to appear anywhere in Egyptian thought - and we know that this changes over time. Originally, only the king gets the afterlife with Osiris; after the First Intermediate period, the afterlife is treated as something to which all souls go.

I think that if you actually search it out, you will find that there really isn't an "Atlantean wisdom tradition" - it's kind of a hodge-podge of 19th Christian mysticism that varies depending on who's talking about it and that doesn't actually mesh well with any ancient belief system (once you dig beneath the surface.)

I'm aware of how that concept changed over time. The point is that specific knowledge was required to overcome the obstacles in the duat, and specific spells of protection. And I'm not referring to the hodge-podge of "Atlantean wisdom" that evolved much later.

Damon

originally posted by: damonjc
Were you waiting to pounce or something? I noticed your reply came in half an hour after my initial post...at midnight. o_O

Nope. I was taking a break from... (wait for it...) Minecraft. After being blown up about 8 times by creepers and killed by zombies and skeletons another 14 times while trying to retrieve my gear, I decided to do something less frustrating. Like read ATS (my other option was to set the game on Peaceful mode and start using cheat code hacks.)

Yeah, I may sound dry and scholarly (and I am), but I'm also a gamer geek girl and play both Minecraft (Space Astronomy mod currently) and World of Warcraft (Alliance AND Horde... I have 47 different characters) rather avidly when not working on other projects (or sometimes as a break from these projects.)

Yes, there are tunnels under Giza which were discovered in 2013. See this article.

I don't think you should take their word for this. For one thing, they don't seem to understand what they're looking at, or even that they understand culture in general (Ogham, for instance, was not a system of writing until 400 AD when it was developed by Catholic monks to transcribe the Celtic language. So there wasn't a "global Ogham script", and this is provable.)

The Giza limestone IS crumbly and does have small caves and tunnels, but they weren't ever used by the Egyptians.

It had occurred to me that you might have misremembered the tunnels that ARE under the pyramid of King Djoser - and there's actually about two miles of tunnels all hooked up in a grand maze. However, Djoser's about 200 years before Giza and his was the step pyramid (first pyramid) and the tunnel system looks nothing like Rosteau (which is a Middle Kingdom concept (hundreds of years after Giza.)

And whether or not Giza originally had these tunnels, the point is that the ancient Egyptians saw fit to mirror features of heaven (e.g., Rostau) on Earth.

I would agree that they modeled some things (the ben-ben, for example.) However, the geography of Rostau is not well defined (and is often contradictory, depending on your source) - it's not like making a Lego-sized Disneyland where the geography is known and detailed (or even, for example, a model of the medieval version of the Christian concept of heaven.) And the "tunnels" that your source claims to have found certainly don't mirror anything in the duat.

BTW, there are several different "books" (spell collections) that describe the Duat and it differs both in time and place.

If you have time for it, here's an excellent paper on Academia.edu about the geography of the afterlife in ancient Egypt

I'm aware of how that concept changed over time. The point is that specific knowledge was required to overcome the obstacles in the duat, and specific spells of protection.

During the Middle Kingdom and later, yes. But as the Pyramid Texts say, there was no such set of obstacles in the afterlife as understood by the Egyptians at the time of the building of the first pyramids. The king simply ascended and took power.

(Be aware that each of the 15 pyramids has a different text in it though there are large sections that are repeated - the versions of the Pyramid Texts on the web are often the compiled version that kit-bashes together 6 or 8 (not all) of the pyramid texts and fills out missing detail with copies from the later Coffin Texts. Allen's translation is considered the current best, Faulkner's considered to be very good, and Budge's translation (the one most often seen) being the least reliable.)

(Faulkner, et al translation of the Pyramid Texts online)

originally posted by: Byrd
Nope. I was taking a break from... (wait for it...) Minecraft. After being blown up about 8 times by creepers and killed by zombies and skeletons another 14 times while trying to retrieve my gear, I decided to do something less frustrating. Like read ATS (my other option was to set the game on Peaceful mode and start using cheat code hacks.)

Yeah, I may sound dry and scholarly (and I am), but I'm also a gamer geek girl and play both Minecraft (Space Astronomy mod currently) and World of Warcraft (Alliance AND Horde... I have 47 different characters) rather avidly when not working on other projects (or sometimes as a break from these projects.)

O...kay, then.

I would be a board game geek (not so much a video gamer any more, although I used to play CRPGs a lot). And I saw Bill Nye at the Pasadena Convention Center once, when the Planetary Society building had its grand opening. He did a skit with Robert Picardo and Jeri Ryan where they did a Star Trek-esque thing, pretending that Bill Nye had accidentally killed himself in a lab experiment gone wrong several years before and was just a hologram that didn't know he was a hologram. Did "computer, freeze program!" back and forth a few times. It was hilarious.

Nice to meet you.

I don't think you should take their word for this. For one thing, they don't seem to understand what they're looking at, or even that they understand culture in general (Ogham, for instance, was not a system of writing until 400 AD when it was developed by Catholic monks to transcribe the Celtic language. So there wasn't a "global Ogham script", and this is provable.)

The Giza limestone IS crumbly and does have small caves and tunnels, but they weren't ever used by the Egyptians.

How do we actually know? First Zahi Hawass denied that there were tunnels, then admitted that they were there and went in to do his "nothing to see here" routine.

There's a book called "Breaking the Mirror of Heaven" which documents Zahi Hawass' long history of "debunking" things which are actually true. Very good reading.

I would agree that they modeled some things (the ben-ben, for example.) However, the geography of Rostau is not well defined (and is often contradictory, depending on your source) - it's not like making a Lego-sized Disneyland where the geography is known and detailed (or even, for example, a model of the medieval version of the Christian concept of heaven.) And the "tunnels" that your source claims to have found certainly don't mirror anything in the duat.

BTW, there are several different "books" (spell collections) that describe the Duat and it differs both in time and place.

Yes, all of this is true. I'm not saying that the tunnel system was a perfect representation, either. On the other hand, the concept of sacred geography was very big with the ancient Egyptians, so regardless of any contradictory myths, they did believe in reflecting heavenly features on the ground (the pyramids, the Nile, etc.).

If you have time for it, here's an excellent paper on Academia.edu about the geography of the afterlife in ancient Egypt

Your link didn't work (even in the original post). Sorry. :-/

During the Middle Kingdom and later, yes. But as the Pyramid Texts say, there was no such set of obstacles in the afterlife as understood by the Egyptians at the time of the building of the first pyramids. The king simply ascended and took power.

(Be aware that each of the 15 pyramids has a different text in it though there are large sections that are repeated - the versions of the Pyramid Texts on the web are often the compiled version that kit-bashes together 6 or 8 (not all) of the pyramid texts and fills out missing detail with copies from the later Coffin Texts. Allen's translation is considered the current best, Faulkner's considered to be very good, and Budge's translation (the one most often seen) being the least reliable.)

(Faulkner, et al translation of the Pyramid Texts online)

Okay.

One of the things I do want to do at some point is literary analysis on the creation literature on the temple of Edfu. The temple itself is of late construction but I've seen a lot of sources claim (without any actual proof) that the texts themselves are much more ancient. Regardless of that, I'm fine with Egyptian beliefs regarding the duat having changed evolved over time (and potentially later influencing Gnosticism). What does seem to be interesting, though, is that the dualistic concepts apparently go right straight back to the origin of Egyptian civilization.

I'm still analyzing what actually got transmitted from whatever ancient civilization was responsible for Gobekli Tepe, for instance, but so far it looks like the same pictographs and religious iconography are popping up there AND in ancient Egypt. And in extremely ancient Saharan rock art, etc.

Damon

originally posted by: damonjc

I don't think you should take their word for this. For one thing, they don't seem to understand what they're looking at, or even that they understand culture in general (Ogham, for instance, was not a system of writing until 400 AD when it was developed by Catholic monks to transcribe the Celtic language. So there wasn't a "global Ogham script", and this is provable.)

The Giza limestone IS crumbly and does have small caves and tunnels, but they weren't ever used by the Egyptians.

How do we actually know? First Zahi Hawass denied that there were tunnels, then admitted that they were there and went in to do his "nothing to see here" routine.

There's a book called "Breaking the Mirror of Heaven" which documents Zahi Hawass' long history of "debunking" things which are actually true. Very good reading.

Well, first, Hawass isn't the only Egyptologist out there. Although he was the minister, it's actually Mark Lehrer (and a lot of other people) who are out there doing excavations at Giza. Some of those holes are from looters, some were dug at different times. The initial searches for tunnels and chambers was actually sponsored by the Edgar Cayce Foundation (who had a stake in finding such things because Cayce predicted it.

There are small passages in the limestone (which you could call tunnels.) There are some modified underground structures. It wouldn't be surprising to find small cave-lets (natural spaces in the rock a few square meters in diameter) there because the surface is limestone.

There is no organized system of interconnecting tunnels, though. They gave that up after Djoser's pyramid.

Yes, all of this is true. I'm not saying that the tunnel system was a perfect representation, either. On the other hand, the concept of sacred geography was very big with the ancient Egyptians, so regardless of any contradictory myths, they did believe in reflecting heavenly features on the ground (the pyramids, the Nile, etc.).

It's not 'contradictory myths', it's "lack of evidence." We know that they replicated the benben because there's written references and every single temple has this structure. The one structure that apparently does represent some geography of the Duat is the Osirion, which dates to the 19th dynasty (after King Tutankhamun).

the things I do want to do at some point is literary analysis on the creation literature on the temple of Edfu. The temple itself is of late construction but I've seen a lot of sources claim (without any actual proof) that the texts themselves are much more ancient.

I can shortcut your efforts by noting that Egyptologists and linguists have done this already - they're the ones who note that some of the sources are older (Middle Kingdom...not Predynastic.)

You might peruse these for more information:
- Spencer, Patricia. The Egyptian Temple: a lexicographical study. Routledge, 1984.
- Watson, Wilfred GE. "Current work on Egyptian lexicography." Historiae 7 (2010): 91-96.
- Reymond, Eve AE. "Worship of the Ancestor Gods at Edfu." Chronique d'Egypte 38.75 (1963): 49-70.
- Griffiths, J. Gwyn. "The interpretation of the Horus-Myth of Edfu." The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 44 (1958): 75-85.

What does seem to be interesting, though, is that the dualistic concepts apparently go right straight back to the origin of Egyptian civilization.

There isn't a "dualistic concept" in their thought.

I'm still analyzing what actually got transmitted from whatever ancient civilization was responsible for Gobekli Tepe, for instance, but so far it looks like the same pictographs and religious iconography are popping up there AND in ancient Egypt. And in extremely ancient Saharan rock art, etc.

I'm not seeing it. The two cultures are quite distinct when you look at their full range of technology and imagery. Ideas are traceable in the geography - had there been a connection in ancient times, we'd see the images start at one place and be replicated exactly at the next nearest place and spread timewise outward. We see this with Egyptian art which eventually spreads into the upper Middle East (during the Middle and New Kingdom) and with Cretan art that shows up in Egypt and elsewhere during the New Kingdom.

And, seriously, why would a large tribal group suddenly adopt images and whatever from a bunch of strangers who hadn't conquered them and who don't even speak the same language?

originally posted by: damonjc

How do we actually know? First Zahi Hawass denied that there were tunnels, then admitted that they were there and went in to do his "nothing to see here" routine.

That's not even remotely true, Zahi got permission for the A.R.E. to investigate the Giza plateau for tunnels when they were looking for the (non-existent) hall of records
You have it backward, as usual blaming the bogeyman without any evidence or knowledge, to explain away why you don't have a shred of evidence to back your delusion
There are five pages here discussing how far Hawass went to look for tunnels, none of which was covered up
probably a good idea for you to read it considering that your default position on this is absolute ignorance
www.touregypt.net...

a reply to: Byrd

Fyi, I've been so incredibly busy lately that I haven't had time to respond. Started a new job with a startup company and it's been all hands on deck from almost day one. I was sick with a cold today so I was almost forced to "slow down"...and decided to post this reply.

I can see that I have a lot of references of yours to look up, so I'll put this conversation on hold until I have the opportunity to do so properly.

Damon

After the startup company I was working for failed to launch, I switched to a steadier remote job and have been scaling back on my numerous side projects. Within the next couple of weeks, I should start having this wonderful thing called "free time" -- and I still intend to follow up on the references you posted.

Damon