Space time has mass? Spacetime and dark matter, one in the same?

"Space time has mass? Spacetime and dark matter, one in the same?"

Correct.

There are several ways to think about this. One is that spacetime has mass. Another is to think of dark matter as filling 'empty' space and being displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.

The mass which fills 'empty' space is what ripples when galaxy clusters collide and is what waves in a double slit experiment.

The mass which fills 'empty' space displaced by matter relates general relativity and quantum mechanics.

The geometrical representation of gravity as curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the dark matter.

a reply to: mpc755

think of dark matter as filling 'empty' space

If it's filling an empty space then it takes us to original question 'what is space-time' that's being filled in with dark matter?
Conclusion of your post: space-time is not dark matter. Dark matter only resides on space-time. Space-time is not made of dark matter. Besides, dark matter, based on what you said, has to be a conductor for all other normal matter.

And as space-time expands, where all that new dark matter to fill it comes from? There then must be a permanent source of it to fill space-time at ever increasing rate.


cheers)

originally posted by: DeadCat
Ensteins field equations show the curvature of space time (everything on the left) due mass (everything on the right.

Curvature of space time (precieved as gravity) is directly related (equal) to mass and energy.

Mass tells space time how to curve.
Curvature of space time tells the mass how to move.

I would say 'yes'.

Another way to think of space-time and mass (and probably effect of gravity):

Take thin aluminum plate. Cut round piece of rubber out of the rubber carpet and glue it somewhere in a middle of aluminum plate. Aluminum plate is going to be our space-time)) and rubber piece -- our mass that rests on the top of it.
Now start bending aluminum plate. What happens to a glued rubber? Yes, it repeats the curvature of the plate although the more you bend the plate, the more resistance you feel as the rubber counter acts to preserve it's original shape. If you bend the plate even more the rubber raptures or comes unglued.

Now similar example but in a different way. Same thin aluminum plate. Now put hot piece of rubber on it. Yes, it is going to stick to the plate. But...as the rubber cools down, it is going to contract, bending the plate inwards. When rubber piece completely cools down and assumes final shape you will see aluminum plate bent around it very noticeably.
That is your 'mass' bending space-time.

something along those lines)))) only in 3D, IMO

a reply to: greenreflections

The geometrical representation of gravity as curved spacetime physically exists in nature as the state of displacement of the dark matter.

The geometrical representation of gravity is referred to as curved spacetime.

The physical representation of gravity is the state of displacement of the dark matter.

where all that new dark matter to fill it comes from?

Supermassive Black Holes Transport Matter into Cosmic Voids

Some of the matter falling towards the holes is converted into energy. This energy is delivered to the surrounding gas, and leads to large outflows of matter, which stretch for hundreds of thousands of light years from the black holes, reaching far beyond the extent of their host galaxies

At the scale of the Universe the energy described above is dark energy. A Universal black hole powers our visible Universe, pushing the galaxy clusters, causing them to accelerate away from us.

Scrutinizing the background glow of light from space in different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum

In 2013, another study using NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory concluded that the cosmic X-ray background radiation largely coincided with ancient cosmic infrared background radiation discovered earlier. A black hole is the only celestial object known to produce light in both of those regions of the electromagnetic spectrum.

We are in the outflow of a Universal black hole. Matter evaporates into dark matter and is delivered to the surrounding galaxy clusters causing the galaxy clusters to accelerate away from us.

Astronomers in South Africa discover mysterious alignment of black holes

Since these black holes don’t know about each other, or have any way of exchanging information or influencing each other directly over such vast scales, this spin alignment must have occurred during the formation of the galaxies in the early universe

The preferred axis of rotation of the Universal black hole accounts for the spin alignment of the black holes in the Universe.

I tend to think that "mass" is a result of an object being pulled into one or more quasi-physical dimensions that go "INTO" itself. A little like this (although illustrating a 4-D space in 2-D is basically impossible).


Imagine a 3-D space with another added dimension that is (for lack of a better way to think of it), at "right angles" to all the other dimensions. How much a bit of matter is pulled into that fourth dimension is a combination of what it's made of and its relationship to the Higgs Boson (and some other as-yet undiscovered "particles"). The attraction into this quasi-physical dimension is what gives a particle its gravity - its pull into itself.

We have no idea how many of these dimensions there are. We know that some pull at ferrous materials harder than others, creating magnetism -- they loop around to create the various "poles." But for the most part, because they don't interact with our reality in a way that we can easily comprehend, we are having a hell of a time trying to recognize them and identify them and their various properties. It will be nice when we do, though. Then maybe we can create some new ways of powering our cars, and possibly sending space probes out at relativistic speeds, as they "fall" towards a phantom mass that we create ourselves.

Not us, of course, but our artificial superintelligences who will finally figure it out.

a reply to: Phage

No. The speed of light is not relative. Something which makes electromagnetic radiation quite unique.

Hmm and there was me thinking I had a profound moment of insight! I suppose some things go beyond my ability to fully grasp, perhaps I never will, but I sure find it interesting.

originally posted by: greenreflections

originally posted by: DeadCat
Ensteins field equations show the curvature of space time (everything on the left) due mass (everything on the right.

Curvature of space time (precieved as gravity) is directly related (equal) to mass and energy.

Mass tells space time how to curve.
Curvature of space time tells the mass how to move.

I would say 'yes'.

Another way to think of space-time and mass (and probably effect of gravity):

Take thin aluminum plate. Cut round piece of rubber out of the rubber carpet and glue it somewhere in a middle of aluminum plate. Aluminum plate is going to be our space-time)) and rubber piece -- our mass that rests on the top of it.
Now start bending aluminum plate. What happens to a glued rubber? Yes, it repeats the curvature of the plate although the more you bend the plate, the more resistance you feel as the rubber counter acts to preserve it's original shape. If you bend the plate even more the rubber raptures or comes unglued.

Now similar example but in a different way. Same thin aluminum plate. Now put hot piece of rubber on it. Yes, it is going to stick to the plate. But...as the rubber cools down, it is going to contract, bending the plate inwards. When rubber piece completely cools down and assumes final shape you will see aluminum plate bent around it very noticeably.
That is your 'mass' bending space-time.

something along those lines)))) only in 3D, IMO

overall I agree with your outlook about mass altering geometry of underlay scape. My question is..how do you come up with space-time 'made' of dark matter? Matter means atoms, bond state of particles.
Meaning space-time made of particles that we cannot detect yet?

I just see no direct relation between space-time and matter except for matter, as an isolated term, rests on space-time scape and it's distribution and motion based on what's the 3D scape looks like in given gravity region.
Like driving a car, you can drive it over or through the hill? Over, most likely.
To me this would mean, gravitational hills and valleys make the travel time for light take longer than simply drawing the line between two points on the map.

cheers)

originally posted by: greenreflections
I just see no direct relation between space-time and matter

Think of spacetime as having mass. To conceptualize spacetime, consider it to be a sea of massive photons which are displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.

Curved spacetime physically manifests itself as the state of displacement of the sea of massive photons.

The wave of wave-particle duality is a wave in the sea of massive photons.

The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided

The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the sea of massive photons, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.

NASA's Gravity Probe B Confirms Two Einstein Space-Time Theories

Imagine the Earth as if it were immersed in honey. As the planet rotates, the honey around it would swirl, and it's the same with space and time

Honey has mass and so does spacetime. The swirl is the state of displacement of the sea of massive photons.

Spacetime did have mass. But then it converted to Southern Baptist.