SOME American Indian views on Homosexuality

originally posted by: DeadFoot

originally posted by: Butterfinger

I dont hate anyone, I hate peoples pushing natives back down because they dont fit the Leftist narratives

I fail to see how this is "pushing natives back down".

Kind of sounds like a "not all" argument that a "leftist" would use.

Does your tribe need a safe space?

Honestly, during colonization homosexuality was a criminal offense among settlers.

Was your tribe doing that?

The topic isn't just about marriage.

I can see how it is "pushing Natives down" though. A lot of people use a simplified version of Native American culture as little more than a prop to further a social or political agenda that doesn't really have much to do with Native American culture at all, and even grossly misrepresents entire cultures as people tend to generalize one Native American culture is the same as all Native American cultures; which is (IMHO) exactly what the original OP is doing. This is not only disrespectful, but also dehumanizing which inevitably makes people "less than". Maybe I've got it wrong, and maybe it'll just piss Butterfinger off because a white lady is "speaking for" him or her, but that's what I am taking away from those posts.

a reply to: redhorse

So it's dehumanizing to point out humanity isn't always heterosexual?

I can tell you from years if cultural anthropology sexuality in culture is extremely varient. I mean bizarre stuff even to me trying to be neutral.

Sure it was a little bit of a kachina doll dream catcher article but the over all message is that humanity has many kinds of relationships. Nobody has a right to define what the right one is if it's not effecting your personal liberty in any way.

What's even worse is when conservatives pretend only liberals are gay. Hilarious.
Conservatives in the US often have an issue with homosexuality which just makes conservative homosexuals even more conflicted which often lead of coarse to depression, self hate, and destructive behaviour.

Before European Christians Forced Gender Roles

Stopped reading right there

Sounds like a neat topic to learn about. Too bad these types of propagandists are using it to push their sad little agenda.

a reply to: onehuman

These people are obviously the superior race. Do you agree?

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: TarzanBeta

So I am confused are you argueing about what's natural or the intellection reason based unique quality of man?

Cause either way I can destroy your arguement.

Choose philosophy and reason or biology let's go!

You've researched, maybe, but you haven't learned.

That comes when you apply your research.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

You would be a great politician.

You don't say much but you make it sound important.


What is your arguement against homosexuality?

Is it a god based one?

Superstions ?

Or do you have a logical arguement against it?

If you don't personally agree with it fine.
In the US though we use enlightenment philosophy to guide us.

Many of the forefathers were actually religious skeptics.

a reply to: VivreLibre

What agenda?

a reply to: onehuman

Mahu in Hawaiian culture is ancient and respected. Kapaemahu is an ancient Tahitian wizard who came to Hawaii with 3 other wizards from Tahiti, very similar to the OP's "Two Spirits".

From the land of Moa'ulanuiakea (Tahiti), there came to Hawaii long before the reign of Kakuhihewa, four soothsayers from the court of the Tahitian king. Their names were: Kapaemahu, Kahaloa, Kapuni and Kinohi. They were received as became their station, and their tall stature, courteous ways and kindly manners made them soon loved by the Hawaiian people. The attractiveness of their fine physique and gentle demeanor was overshadowed by their low, soft speech which endeared them to all with whom they came in contact. They were unsexed by nature, and their habits coincided with their feminine appearance, although manly in stature and general bearing. After a long tour of the islands this quartette of favorites of the gods settled at Ulukou, Waikiki, near the site of the present Moana Hotel.

The wizards or soothsayers proved to be adepts in the science of healing, and many wonderful cures by the laying on of sands are reported to have been effected by them, so that their fame spread all over this island of O'ahu, as the ancients say, "from headland to headland," And their wisdom and skill was shown by many acts which gave them prestige among the people.

In course of time, knowing that their days among their Hawaiian friends were drawing to a close, they caused their desire for recognition for past services to be remembered in some tangible form, or manner, so that those who might come after, could see the appreciation of those who had been succored and relieved of pain and suffering by their ministrations during their sojourn among them. As an enduring reminder, the wizards agreed among themselves that the people should be asked to erect four monumental tablets, two to be placed on the ground of the habitation, and two at their usual bathing place in the sea. They gave their decision to the people as a voice from the gods, and instructed that the stones be selected from among those in the "bell rock" vicinity of Kaimuki.

The night of Kane was the time indicated for the commencement of the work of transportation, and thousands responded to aid in the labor. Four large selected boulders, weighing several tons each, were taken to the beach lot at Ulukou, Waikiki, two of which were placed in position where their house stood, and the other two were placed in their bathing place in the sea. Kapaemahu, chief of the wizards, had his stone so named, and transferred his witchcraft powers thereto with incantations and ceremonies, including a sacrificial offering, said to have been that of a lovely, virtuous young chiefess, and her body placed beneath the stone. Idols indicating the unsexed nature of the wizards were also placed under each stone and tradition tells that the incantations, prayers and fastings lasted one full moon. Tradition further states, as is related in the old-time meles of that period, that, after the ceremonies, by each of the wizards transferred all his powers to his stone, they vanished, and were seen no more. But the rocks having lately been discovered they have been exhumed from their bed of sand and placed in position in the locality found, as tangible evidence of a Hawaiian tale.

Link

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: redhorse

So it's dehumanizing to point out humanity isn't always heterosexual?

Um no. That's not what I said at all and you know it.

It's dehumanizing to use an culture to push an agenda that doesn't have much or anything to do with the culture being used.

Also, I'm bisexual you twit. I'm well aware that humanity isn't always heterosexual. Your insistence on twisting my words to suit your agenda are completely indicative of the mentality that will misrepresent a culture in order to do so. Nothing matters but YOUR point, it is the height of arrogance.

The Mahane. Man-Women.
They did not go to the hunt.
They worked with the women doing women's chores.
They were respected for their opinions and insights.

a reply to: luthier

The forefathers had a right to be religious skeptics, as do you. Society is once again at the point of lording bad religion over the people as in their day.

What you're failing to realize is that reading is not enough. Apply what you've read, then get back to me. Arguments do not convince the inexperienced.

Keep making those guitars though. I have a soft spot for luthiers (that actually know what they're doing).

a reply to: redhorse

Uh I don't have an agenda other than to say the word has always been diverse of philosophy, superstions, and sexuality.

I am strait by the way. Completely. Three kids and a best friend wife.

Also not liberal or leftist. So I don't have an agenda other than to debate an eye for an eye with people. You were siding with somebody who appears to have rather bigoted views points on what a civilized person is. Although we never got far enough to see how ill lhe thought of homosexuality.

But yeah I am arrogant in argument. It's true. Eapwcualky when it's been dished out already. Sorry if you caught some undeserved ego in there. I really do apologise.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Well I worked for Collings for 4 years before branching out if that means anything.

Again thougb apply what exactly.

Can you be specific or is this just a catch phrase.

How do you suppose I apply the knowledge that humanity is diverse?

I guess I have debates.

If you want to go more formal I still remember the format from college 25 years ago.

Anyhow seems like your hiding and not exposing what your secret philosophy is that is so profound it will make everything clear.

a reply to: luthier

Homosexuality pops up with overpopulation on top of other reasons.

...hmm. in other words Homosexuality pops up when there is something wrong? ...for example environment? ..what are those other reasons? ...and last question i will have. Do those animals actually can react naturally in "LABS" experiments? just wondering about normal social and sexual behaving of any creature in LAB experiment... thanks x

a reply to: ZakOlongapo

Sure.

It's hardly lab expirements alone.

For instance in physical anthropology people have studied apes and their culture. The correlation of sexuality vs aggression mirrors humans. For instance if you compare mating behaviour of the low lands guerillas and the bonobos sexuality. Or any like similar sexual practices between ape groups a correlation between sexual repression and violence vs sexual openness and passiveness emerges. The LL guerilla kills any other males or exiles them also has been observed to control female guerillas sexuality amongst each other.

Bonobos well they are the opposite. www.psychologytoday.com...

In humans the more restrictive the social sexual practices the greater number of perversions emerge.

Now as far as lab studies sure it's not a natural enviornment. The studies I as referring to were how nature deals with overpopulation.

It's almost like quantum phenomenon. The more say rats added the more they started forming groups and attacking each other and homosexuality emerges.

Now I don't claim to say the correlation is when something goes wrong at all. Especially regarding the individual.

I think it's just part of the design. As far as human sexuality that can be very much intellectual. You can love the being that is the other person so deeply the gender doesn't matter or you can be born gay. You can be converted to homosexuality from abuse. You can be fluid with your sexuality there is no set correct state. Procreation is important for the species to continue and nature or if you believe a designer has ways to create it's beings to suit the conditions on the planet. That doesn't negate their existence as observers and individuals. It's like having a skin color to suit your environment.

As far as thinking the individual who is gay is defective or perverted or broken is just absurd. Especially once one gets beyound the animal brain and can use reason. Obviously love is love. Good people are good people bad people are bad people. There sexuality doesn't play a role in that unless they were extremely abused because of it.

originally posted by: Butterfinger
a reply to: Painterz

Thats true, but it doesnt stop what I said being true.

White washing over natives for your agenda.

You thought you guys had us "domesticated" didnt you?

I was enjoying your points regarding the erroneous views many have of Native Americans, but by perpetrating the same style of rhetoric, your credibility takes a hit. Your points are much more well-received without being tainted by hypocrisy. I don't think it was your intent, probably just frustration - I'm just saying, blaming and accusing people who had nothing to do with past injustices is counterproductive.

A large portion of white Americans have ancestors who arrived from 20th century war-torn Europe. Mine arrived from Europe and Armenia between 1880-1910. None owned slaves, none were pro-slavery, none killed or oppressed Native Americans. Even if they had, I didn't, and neither did anyone on ATS.

We're not "you guys" any more than you are "you people."

a reply to: luthier

Nothing is hidden. Apply your knowledge by dealing directly with people today; not on a business level, but a personal level. Not on an acquaintance level, but a friendship level. If you still think humans are animals, you're meeting the wrong people. You'll see by their long term treatment of you and their own.

Apply your knowledge.

If you're honest, you'll see the results.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Thank you wise one but I am doing just fine.

I am 43 have restored three homes I bought and sold for profit. My fourth home is brand new bought for cash. I have a beautiful intelligent wife, three kids, am a volunteer wrestling coach, do antibullying and self defense workshops, make guitars, sound engineering at night also play out every week in a band. When I was 18 I spent 3 months in India taking religious architecture photos for fun. I have been to 13 countries.

How about you?

Anyhow your therapy session isn't needed wise one.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Nothing is hidden. Apply your knowledge by dealing directly with people today; not on a business level, but a personal level. Not on an acquaintance level, but a friendship level. If you still think humans are animals, you're meeting the wrong people. You'll see by their long term treatment of you and their own.

That was a whole lot of nothing.

You've been dodging luthier's question which was:

What is your argument against homosexuality?

I've read 4 pages of this thread and now I really want to know. So please, enlighten us.

a reply to: dogstar23

Good point, I did get frustrated, contrary to my Avatar...

Ive had the same point of view in relation to all whites v. Slavery and even Native genocide.

I'm sorry for being a hypocrite... just this one time.. only... ever.