pre pyramid plateau

Actually Jean Pierre Houdin gave some very good explanations for the vertical fissures in the sphinx´ moat.

Without any problems his thesis could explain how climate, the then present architectural buildings and geology are responsible for this.

emhotep.net... f-3/

Let’s go back now to the theory about the Sphinx being carved many ages before the construction of the pyramids, during a hypothetical era of strong rains. After a careful analysis of the topography of the Plateau, the main question that comes to mind is: while the normal rainwater runoff, as we have seen, follows a path from North/North-East towards South/South-East, why is the vertical wall on the South side of the pit of the Sphinx the most eroded by the runoff whilst the slope continues towards South/South-East after this vertical wall? In a general topography not disturbed by the construction of the pyramids, logically, the most affected vertical walls should have been the western and northern walls, whilst the southern wall would have been preserved: the water can’t flow uphill… So for the erosion patterns to make sense a disruptive element must have been added to the topography: this element is Khafre’s Royal Causeway which channeled the water runoff towards the pit of the Sphinx. There is no valid climatic argument which allows asserting that the Sphinx was carved 10,000 years ago.

abtract :
This more important erosion was not due to more frequent and stronger rains, but because of a violent increase of the quantity of the runoff in a precise spot during strong rains.


Evidence for this water runoff problems is the presence of water channels dug into the plateau in those ancient times.

A masonry-built spillway was discovered on the North side of the Causeway, very close to the ( Menkaure) Valley Temple

emhotep.net... f-3/

a reply to: anti72

aahh, that old game! i suggest you read the previous pages of this thread where we debated the origins of the sphinx, well in fact we couldnt, because the origins remain unknown, however we did have a good old set to, vis a vis geology, geography and philology, and excluding incoming revisions like this, although happy to consider such, have to conclude that we may be a few hundred years either way, all of which will give the egyptologists an embolism, due to their strict adherence to doctrine.
reflect and reply if you wish.
Jean Pierre Houdin is an architect not a builder.
with that detached arrogance that goes with those who never feel the consequences of their ideas put into practice.
procrastination is a tawdry affair especially within feats of human achievement.

a reply to: anti72

page 2-3 and on.

a reply to: anti72


abtract :
This more important erosion was not due to more frequent and stronger rains, but because of a violent increase of the quantity of the runoff in a precise spot during strong rains.


Evidence for this water runoff problems is the presence of water channels dug into the plateau in those ancient times.

well abstract is the word you were after and lehner, zahwis or however its spelt, were rooting for subsurface exfoliation to do the work of much fluvial erosian, up to 1 metre in depth in some areas to make a square peg fit in the round hole.
we call it mission creep in other trades.
it carries a butchers bill outside academia, but that wont sway the opinion of an academic!

a reply to: anti72

so rereading this pet thread of mine, i realise that i just waded in. perhaps i should take a different line into this.
so i would like, theoretically, to create a building site of this epoch, on this thread.
but initially not the pyramids, lets just go straight megalithic.
so really just interested in method and process, to begin.
we have a list of desires related to our perceived place in time/space
we have a meme to pass to our descendants over time/space
we have material need of construction in this or future time/space
at this point i would clarify spiritual/material is indistinguishable or mutually inclusive
all this taken for granted, and dealing with your resourceful comrades in your choice of virgin territory, what transpires?
you have nothing but your skills and the resources to hand.
but you are field expedient and know nothing else
and you have the capacity of imagination, and absolute faith and trust in your band.
well firstly you need a site. location, location.
well we ve got that.
motivation.
expedient skills
vision.
practicalitys
we've got to set out, need cordage-fine and strong.
need blades to shape stakes.
got the sun for a compass, clock and a spirit level (shadow).
cordage gives me a pendulumn, almost a gyroscope.
if i have an auger i can make holes in wood.
if i make a stick on a fulcrum or axle in the centre, and weight it equally at each end, with a weight on a string and attach another at 90 degrees with the first stick as the axle i then do have a gyroscope.
it follows if i have 2, i can go to the roughest terrain and set them up.
run a string between, trianglate the height difference (with a bit more string) and run a perfectly level string line in the middle of nowhere, and with the sun, and some predetermined shaow depths at a certain time of year, get it very precisely aligned.
so for a start it occurs that stone circles may tell alot more to people who read direction and time from the sun, especially if it is used as a description of proportion in communication.
so maybe it would be possible to describe them as a gps system, if you could roughly discern your latitude from shadow length .
anyway i digress, will consider the bext stage of construction.
we start with wood. considering the trees had pretty much had the place to themselves for 100s of millenia they were surely big, but to move to lithic material?
well lets ignore that, so we presumably have knowledge of jointing from woodwork and now we must select our quarrysite and material..
to be cont.

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: anti72


abtract :
This more important erosion was not due to more frequent and stronger rains, but because of a violent increase of the quantity of the runoff in a precise spot during strong rains.


Evidence for this water runoff problems is the presence of water channels dug into the plateau in those ancient times.

well abstract is the word you were after and lehner, zahwis or however its spelt, were rooting for subsurface exfoliation to do the work of much fluvial erosian, up to 1 metre in depth in some areas to make a square peg fit in the round hole.
we call it mission creep in other trades.
it carries a butchers bill outside academia, but that wont sway the opinion of an academic!

- abstract means conclusion.

- I´m not ´after´ Lehner, or HAWASS , and am surely not a ´fanboy ´ of any of those two but be sure that these people DO actually do their archeological homework.

The workers village with complete bakeries/ slaughterhouse and other uildings unearthed are quite amazing.
Or the foreman´s tomb that was found right there..
More down south the nile there were inspriptions found which are evidence for delivery of stones to Khufu´s working site..ad much more..

water tunnels.
so, you say that these water runoff tunnels are something different? Even if these cleary show strong evidence of water flow/erosion?
But you did notice the need and functions of these runoff tunnels, right?

proof:

there is irrefutable evidence that the builders of Menkaure’s pyramid (or their successors) had to confront a rain water runoff problem. Actually, taking again the diggings carried out between the two wars by Georges Reisner, Dr Mark Lehner and his team have discovered drainage and diversion networks, built in the ancient times, in the area of the Menkaure’s Valley Temple; moreover, this temple was rebuilt several times following heavy deteriorations. A masonry-built spillway was discovered on the North side of the Causeway, very close to the Valley Temple

The tunnel intersects the Causeway a few meters below it. Traces of stagnating water are clearly visible on the lateral walls and on the floor.

again, Houdin, actually addresses all this. After Menkaure build his causeway and temple, there actually were TWO major abstacles present at the giza plateau, meaning cutting the plateau in half twice.

I recommend reading this first. He is a very experienced architect.

The odd thing with acdemia is, you just can´t pick out a detail but see all the present contexts .

cheers

a reply to: anti72


- abstract means conclusion.

- I´m not ´after´ Lehner, or HAWASS , and am surely not a ´fanboy ´ of any of those two but be sure that these people DO actually do their archeological homework.

yup was pointing out spelling of abstract, sorry automatic and i made way more typos than you so ,apologies.
i dont care what anyone thinks about these guys either, and its not the point. the point is whatever it is at the time.
the reason i critized some of their more hypothetical assumptions, is because they have a tendancy to make it fit.
in direct opposition to the physical scientists.
"where are the pottery shards?" lehner really showed his colours with that faux pas.
and hawass, well bureaucracy and cultural differences are just that!


"The workers village with complete bakeries/ slaughterhouse and other uildings unearthed are quite amazing.
Or the foreman´s tomb that was found right there..
More down south the nile there were inspriptions found which are evidence for delivery of stones to Khufu´s working site..ad much more.."

whats to say this wasnt an extensive renovation. what would you find that differed from construction evidence.
its supported by assumption.


"water tunnels.
so, you say that these water runoff tunnels are something different? Even if these cleary show strong evidence of water flow/erosion?
But you did notice the need and functions of these runoff tunnels, right?"

please help me out and be more specific.
if it helps the subterreanan chamber seem pretty eroded to my eye.
do you have another suggestion for the use of these small passages?

"there is irrefutable evidence that the builders of Menkaure’s pyramid (or their successors) had to confront a rain water runoff problem."
so here if we change builder to custodian, would it change the perspective without affecting the evidence?

also relatively ignored but surely most pertinent is the fact that the casing stones still remaining on this pyramid appear to be dry ashlar style.

a reply to: anti72

was houdin the spiral ramp guy or the water/lock system guy and the theres davidovits the geopolymer guy.
all french too. colonies eh?
sorry if i was a little terse

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: anti72

was houdin the spiral ramp guy or the water/lock system guy and the theres davidovits the geopolymer guy.
all french too. colonies eh?
sorry if i was a little terse

Houdin - interior ramp
Chris Massey - Water shaft guy
Davidovitz - geopolymer
All bs

a reply to: Marduk

gonna have to agree with you for the second time today tho dont think i know the water shaft guy.
oh right, rock balloons....
just looked.
i cannot find the words

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Marduk

gonna have to agree with you for the second time today tho dont think i know the water shaft guy.
oh right, rock balloons....
just looked.
i cannot find the words

Oh, I liked how he expects the workers to quarry the stones and then move them further away from the pyramid, so that they can be floated back again. He doesn't seem to be aware that the quarry for the pyramids is actually on the plateau

a reply to: Marduk

hmm when i was getting those datums for the pyramids, i must say, it looked like the quarries originally were in the main wadi, which is where you would get a nice exposed strata to hack away at. an at the bottom of it is an urban sprawl now. good foundation. or maybe its a modern cemetry.
the old quarries appear to be cemeteries now.

a reply to: Marduk

and that pliocene water level is a a +30 metre datum, which appears to be the present water table judging by the fertile land, and if you follow this contour you can break through only at the inlet of the original lake moeris, so if the pyramids were moving water it would be a positive feedback loop, over time to raise or make permanant the water table.
into the lake, under the hill, maybe into a larger subterran lake and or combine with natural aquifers, raise 40 metres or less out the pyramid back down the river to the lake. if it was doing something like this naturally then that could even help towards the preservation of the lake.
just a tweak to a system existant, for optimisation!

a reply to: anti72

reread houdins but i remeber this from 10 years or so ago.
you cant buy this surely?
lets do this difficult task, but in an uphill corridor, with angular corners.
you dont have a renault by any chance?

but seriously, you know he came to this because of a lack of options on the exterior. it was his fathers idea.
its easier to make a theory on evidence than lack of it.
hes a clever guy but a little abstract, got carried away with the idea.
its more of a logistical puzzle than a theory, it just feeds itself.
like i said about architects earlier.
and a parisien to boot!

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: anti72

reread houdins but i remeber this from 10 years or so ago.
you cant buy this surely?
lets do this difficult task, but in an uphill corridor, with angular corners.
you dont have a renault by any chance?

but seriously, you know he came to this because of a lack of options on the exterior. it was his fathers idea.
its easier to make a theory on evidence than lack of it.
hes a clever guy but a little abstract, got carried away with the idea.
its more of a logistical puzzle than a theory, it just feeds itself.
like i said about architects earlier.
and a parisien to boot!

´´lets do this difficult task, but in an uphill corridor, with angular corners.
you dont have a renault by any chance??´´


is it so difficult to type in a readable language ?

Houdin´s concept of building the outer casing stones first, seems to be the only solid one.
Only that way the alignment and control of building up to the top is a secure one.
Try this with exterior ramps all over. Only a decimeter off and you wont get at all a pyramid form.
The AE were good at maths. And for sure Hemiunu was.

a reply to: anti72


"is it so difficult to type in a readable language ? "
pretty sure i spoke in english, even if you take out the typos, or syntax errors.
i speak french some italian and german, even swedish at a push though my grammar is poor.
well if its so easy to critisize, you appear to understand regardless.
"Houdin´s concept of building the outer casing stones first, seems to be the only solid one"
so if thats inaccurate, where do you stand?
i highlight the word "seems"
where does that leave you?
"The AE were good at maths. And for sure Hemiunu was."
and yet the AE are denied pi.
if you dont have that then you are #ed.
so i suspect we have some common ground here!
for clarification the renault is a french car make and its an ongoing disaster, like most post 98' cars.
keep it stupid, simple! KISS
my reengineering of an engineering maxim, keep it simple, stupid.
they build state level military and engineering to perfection, anything further down the food chain is an unmitigated disaster waiting for purchase!
hence houdin.




Hemiunu was a son of Prince Nefermaat and his wife Itet,[3] a grandson of Sneferu and relative of Khufu, the Old Kingdom pharaoh. Hemiunu had three sisters and many brothers.

Houdin´s concept of building the outer casing stones first, seems to be the only solid one

a reply to: username74

so to continue my/our odyssey....we ve a system, a gyroscopic system to pull a perfectly level, and directional baseline on any terrain and elevation.
we have undefined purpose and unquantified logistical support and labour, all sufficient to create our seemingly abstract goals and a surplus of time to substitute where resources are thin.
so its to the tools and technique shed.
this is where we stutter......
to be continued with input, pleeaasseee
because i do not have a tool kit for this, at least not an expedient one.
we must look to measurement first.
you may get a tool that can cut but you need a benchmark to upgrade.
this will refine the tools.
so the unit of measurement is irrelevant, cubit or metre, it just needs to be precise enough to create what is evidenced.
so we have cordage. that will do, for the set out and bulk.
its not going to do for the detail. not below 20 mm
in some ways our tech has retrograded.
lasers are great for a spot height but you really want to lay out strings.
its fiddly but you get a line drawn physical model, in situ.
we use computer models today but this just alienates the guys who sweat from the guys who point.
thats not a team, its a hierarchy.
its detached and inefficient, but easier to manage, so its not spontaneous and from our perspective spontaneity and endurance are mutually exclusive so already we have divergence from our 'civilised' perspective.
you see how sticky this will become in discussion?

a reply to: username74

so we have to assume that this is a community effort, to what level and with what division is unclear.
so our first example should really be of the greatest antiquity.
so lets say gobekli tepe. so, yes sky burial place, layered. much is unclear.
what is clear is it was either constructed by people who did not farm or at least not exclusively and not locally.
proficient masons.
and thats where the paradigm gets twitchy,
our civilisation doesnt like the idea that people, individuals, can get to be proficient at specialist tasks without living in a sedentary society and being supported by food specialists, in short society and culture cannot function without total compartalisation and compliance under centralised control. cain and abel, hunter and farmer. well, maybe you can have an allotment. and do a bit of fishing.
and there are manifold reasons for this apparence, not the least of which is education , your central authority be it theocratic or democratic or a combination thereof makes itself responsible for such.
in a world before this, it is neccesary we adjust our personal and moral benchmarks, and pure objectivity will not be sufficient to assess this.
empathy, a wild uncluttered empathy will be needed to piece together what we do have.
these people didnt fear anything not immediate, or they were under massive threat. they dont have our comforts to compare their perceived hardship, or illusions of mortality.
they were resourseful, bright, endlessly resilient and fearless by our standards. natural selection sees to that. and to hearth and home. it was clearly a mobile affair so your home is your people, so why build such immogile things?
they must all have been aggregation points at first. for divers reasons.
that i contend

a reply to: username74

so i have to share this. mostly because of the simple genius.
so this is an example of soft technology. although a refined one, it is basically simple. the feed mechanism is fantastic.
www.youtube.com...
so in their hypothetical tool shed things are a little different.
what i am trying to get to is the minds that form the process. so i guess the best example to hand is a traditional basic ram pump.
no i hear you groan, again.
well yes, but how many of you actually understand how it works, in honesty.
not very many i suspect, and why would you, unless you have one on a farm.
well its one thing to understand it works off water hammer and pressure, but thats not intimate enough.
consider at some point this idea had to be imagined.
lets see the mission brief for coming up with this; we need a box to make water run up hill. no mechanisms, no power input aside from what is available. it must be self regulating and also adjustable.
so for us we would have a solar unit, say for power, a battery bank, mppt controller, protections, control panel, impellor unit, sensors, flow management software.
we would boondoggle it.
or we would use a ram pump too.
and it will be noted here that this tech has been refined.... but not signicantly altered, because it is one of those rare ideas that it takes a very rare mindset to invent, and its initial conception is pretty much the optimum.
its a direct and efficient use of natural laws.
it was solved by a box with two gates in it, with another box connected. and to make it function you pour water in it.
the optimum ratios are also elegant and simple.
1 in 4 fall rate for the supply
if the size of the supply line is 1
the delivery line is 2
the standpipe is 3
and it is a frictionless delivery method, therefore the lateral distance to the pump from either side, can be extended by adding an open standpipe at intervals along the line.
so you could make one from a log its that simple in a lateral arrangement. and yet the basic design cannot be improved.
so with the ashlar walls, the conceived pattern, is hetrogeneous yet incredibly resilient. for us to build strong we go absolute uniformity. a directly opposite line of attack. concrete (and concrete is nothing without its metal skeleton) before that, mortar to spread the load.
what can this tell us?
well, it tells us they had different requirements of these structures.
they were expecting load from torsion and shear. they were not intended as load bearing foundations although they were heavily overbuilt as regards their own weight, and could probably served as such. they are strong against impact from the front. the taper at the back and the bevel on the joints, front protect anywhere on the rock, aside from the accurate jointing planes on the largest circumference of the blocks, so if the rocks orientation is changed under force the edges of the blocks cannot clash and compromise the structure. they will also fall back into place under their own mass and those above.
they are not designed as defence against other homonids, although they have been used as outposts since. leisure climbing walls today also have such features.
they appear in some areas to have drainage features, sometimes ornamental, much as we put in pipes in retaing walls, and again flexible in their resistance to retained pressure.
so they probably knew about piles. pile of sand can be piled up but you noticed that it was a self organising system and if you can extract the rules that help it retain its shape then you might come up with this method of construction.
these people were some sharp cookies but differently to us. it raises interesting questions about their level of communication and type of conceptual reality.i image they would be very intimidating for us to relate to but not in the way you would initially imagine.

a reply to: username74

so i have a little basic math or more correctly some pertinent facts regarding this construction, the maths we can get to later, but i find this ashlar building style such a distraction, especially since its on the last pyramid , but on tha biggie, kings chamber has been expanded and the granite ceiling beams are fractured due to some type of massive internal explosion
The granite coffer has changed from pink to brown
Acoustic engineers are demonstrating that the King‘s chamber and the coffer are actually tuned to resonate at a specific frequency - 440Hz this is approaching certain possibilitys. most of which i wouldnt even want to touch.try a scalar equation under instruction and then after a few days if you can get it you will be well advised never to read any joseph farrell.
Many mathematicians embrace the building. They show that it incorporates numerous advanced mathematical relations within its design , perimeter is equal to a half minute of equatorial longitude or 1/43,2000 earth’s circumference. The height is 1/43,200 earth’s polar radius, base of natural logarithms is incorporated in the primary angles, number pi is found when taking perimeter and dividing by 2 times height, the largest and most accurately constructed building in the world ,almost perfectly aligned to the polar coordinates, built to within 3 arc minutes from perfection, blocks, estimated, 2,300,000 blocks, would require 33 quarries to work 24 hours a day for 27 years using modern machines,five layers of granite beams of the King’s chamber ceiling weigh 70 tons each, 13 acre base is level to within ¾”, 330’ descending passage is straight to within ¼ inch for the entire length. One 90’ stretch is straight to within 1/10 inch, casing stones fit with an accuracy of +/- 0.005”, with copper chisels and beating stones?
quite a c.v.