Illegal, but Not Undocumented, Are Illegals Criminals?

originally posted by: georgeglass

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: georgeglass

We are a nation of laws and if we are going to be a nice country for our kids to live in in the future we need to continue to abide by those laws.

I broke the law and paid for it for 7 years of my life why do they get to get away with whatever they want?

Okay they broke the law.

So what we send them back so they can suffer in their home country only to return?
We send the person to prison where we support them and introduce them to people involved in more extreme illegal activity?

I do not have the answer but the current efforts obviously do not work. I doubt building a massive wall is the answer. What are we China?

Wouldn't it be simple to just fine Mexico for every illegal immigrant found in America? If they don't want to pay the fines then build a wall to keep them in. If those people that want to leave legally and register themselves then fine, but Mexico should be held accountable for their own actions, and it is Mexico's fault for why people keep leaving that mess. Hold the country responsible for their own people, it's pretty common. If they don't want to be held responsible, then put the illegals in internment camps to work off their fine. If that doesn't dissuade people from entering illegal I don't know what will. States should also use E-Verify if that is a sure fire way to ensure the person applying for a job is legal or not. Businesses that hire illegal immigrants should also be fined, even if they did not know they were an illegal, it is their responsibility as well to ensure they are not conducting criminal activities by hiring illegal immigrants.

originally posted by: RickyD
a reply to: Aazadan

Pretty sure every tax payer they scam money off of in the form of welfare or tax returns are the victim. Pretty sure taking something that's not rightfully yours is theft. So let's put that argument to bed.

They don't get welfare. Some of them get food stamps but SNAP isn't bankrupting anyone and it's not theft either since the law stipulates they can do that.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Aazadan

No there is no enforcement happening against either the criminal or the businesses supporting them

Really? When Georgia went with very harsh punishments against employers of illegals the work simply didn't get done.

Let me ask you something, given human nature and the fact that people have shown they will work for poverty wages in order to live in the US rather than Mexico, what do you think is more likely to raise wages for Americans in fields like construction?

Option 1: Have a permanent underclass that will do work for cheap, in cash, under the table and have honest citizens trying to compete.

or

Option 2: Remove the stigma of hiring illegals and encourage them to seek higher wages? When people compete on an even playing field they seek a living wage for their work.

Basically, the best way to deal with the problem is to spend even less on enforcement. Let them come over, and encourage them to make as much money as they can. As long as they're living honestly there's no problem here economically. We should certainly do something about those who come over to commit crimes, but it's a waste of resources to chase down the rest... all it does is make things worse for honest people.

originally posted by: Sometimes
Wouldn't it be simple to just fine Mexico for every illegal immigrant found in America?

Fine them how? What legal authority is going to collect a disputed debt from another nation? Is it really in the US's interest to develop the reputation as a country that makes up random debts?

If they don't want to be held responsible, then put the illegals in internment camps to work off their fine.

So you're advocating debtor's prisons for people and the criteria to go to one is not paying an arbitrary fine?

a reply to: Aazadan

Don't forget medical cost from ER's and medical clinics from Medicaid especially if they have children. They do collect welfare and medicaid when they have children and they do collect welfare when they are using fake SSN's.

cis.org...

According to this site 53% of Illegal households use Medicaid. How much is that costing us?

(I don't care what legal immigrants do to be honest)

a reply to: Aazadan

Really? When Georgia went with very harsh punishments against employers of illegals the work simply didn't get done.

I see nothing wrong with migrant work visas.

Also they are going to be out of a job soon as well.

Agriculture Industry Looking To Replace Farm Workers With Robotic Machines

a reply to: onequestion

Sounds like the illegal invaders are likely responsible for most of the identity theft in the country! Get that under control, and we can kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

To be clear it's not just Mexican's, it's Asians, Europeans any and all people.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Sometimes
Wouldn't it be simple to just fine Mexico for every illegal immigrant found in America?

Fine them how? What legal authority is going to collect a disputed debt from another nation? Is it really in the US's interest to develop the reputation as a country that makes up random debts?

If they don't want to be held responsible, then put the illegals in internment camps to work off their fine.

So you're advocating debtor's prisons for people and the criteria to go to one is not paying an arbitrary fine?

So the only other answer is war if a debtor system cannot be construed. No nation in the history of nations has lasted very long with open borders and citizens criminally stealing funds from the government in which they don't support. I would think that the Patriot Act would allow undocumented citizens to be murdered at the border just as tresspassers on your property can be shot on sight legally. If the illegals don't want to be documented, isn't is presumed that they are dangerous in the first place?

Making up random debts? How about setting and interest rate for every single undocumented citizen, whatever government money they have scammed out of charity by using a false SSN and ID then Mexico pays interest on that charge until it is repaid. They are still citizens of Mexico and are stealing from the government and tax payers. I am pretty sure there are enough government employeess to ensure the interest rates get paid, just name a 3 letter acronym and that agency would have people available to collect money for the U.S. I also think that a foreign citizen stealing U.S. money by falsification of records could be seen as a terrorist, just like a termite, one causes no harm but let it go unchecked and your house/nation will crumble.

I am just stating that there are ways to deter illegal immigration, and it is time to be more forceful rather than grant everyone immunity for the reason that big business and politicians on the left love illegal immigrants. The immigrants like to say that all whites are illegal immigrants but they are false as well. Nearly all immigrants from Europe were documented and legal by way of the Ellis island port.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

To be clear it's not just Mexican's, it's Asians, Europeans any and all people.

Of course! Lots of people, from all over, come via the southern border. That's why there is such a need to secure it. Terrorists can walk over, drug dealers, pretty much anyone.

originally posted by: onequestion
Don't forget medical cost from ER's and medical clinics from Medicaid especially if they have children. They do collect welfare and medicaid when they have children and they do collect welfare when they are using fake SSN's.

If they were making a wage that allowed them to purchase health insurance (and our medical system were affordable) they wouldn't use the ER as their doctor checkup.

According to this site 53% of Illegal households use Medicaid. How much is that costing us?

Billions. We clearly aren't having any luck at kicking them out though, and it's a public health hazard to not provide medical services (not to mention inhumane), so removing all treatment simply isn't an option. Therefore, the solution is to remove barriers that cause them to be an underclass. In doing so we will also help our citizens.

originally posted by: Sometimes
So the only other answer is war if a debtor system cannot be construed. No nation in the history of nations has lasted very long with open borders and citizens criminally stealing funds from the government in which they don't support. I would think that the Patriot Act would allow undocumented citizens to be murdered at the border just as tresspassers on your property can be shot on sight legally. If the illegals don't want to be documented, isn't is presumed that they are dangerous in the first place?

Seriously? So now you want not just arbitrary debtor's prisons and made up debts between nations, but you want to proactively declare war on a peaceful nation, or you want to allow people to just murder illegals? You're insane, also you have no concept of what does and doesn't work.

Lets start with war, what do you propose? Invade Mexico? How long do you want to occupy the country? How much money do you want to spend occupying it? What do you think residents of Mexico are going to do when we start shelling the country? Do you think they're going to stay and get bombed, or do you think they're going to cross the border? Once peace is declared, what do you think they're going to do? Stay or move? Also, the Patriot Act says no such thing. The Patriot Act is entirely non violent aside from torture, it has to do with obtaining information (torture being one method of doing so) not killing people.

Making up random debts? How about setting and interest rate for every single undocumented citizen, whatever government money they have scammed out of charity by using a false SSN and ID then Mexico pays interest on that charge until it is repaid. They are still citizens of Mexico and are stealing from the government and tax payers. I am pretty sure there are enough government employeess to ensure the interest rates get paid, just name a 3 letter acronym and that agency would have people available to collect money for the U.S. I also think that a foreign citizen stealing U.S. money by falsification of records could be seen as a terrorist, just like a termite, one causes no harm but let it go unchecked and your house/nation will crumble.

So you want to further an underclass? If you do that, you'll just encourage them to work for cash more than they already do. Good luck collecting taxes from an under the table cash transaction.

And no, terrorism has a definition and it involves using violence for political ends. Being an illegal immigrant is not terrorism.

a reply to: onequestion

There are such things as "work" and "student" visas which are forms of documentation. Which would make them legal as long as they didnt surpass their expiration date on those (Note: I had an Australian friend who came here on a work visa, as well as multiple Russian girls who came here on work visas to find husbands and even a Saudi male here for school...all had legal identification.)

This isnt the wild west anymore. We dont have uncharted lands. There are legal stipulations if you decide to move somewhere... there are even "squatters rights". There are immigration laws in every country, why should we be different?

It's very interesting

If I did any of the things illegals do, I'd be sitting in a prison cell right now

But liberals think it's OK to be hypocritical on the issue because reasons.

originally posted by: Pyrrho
It's very interesting

If I did any of the things illegals do, I'd be sitting in a prison cell right now

But liberals think it's OK to be hypocritical on the issue because reasons.

What are they doing that would get you thrown in prison?

a reply to: onequestion

If making illegal aliens non criminal, then "undocumented withdraws" from banks/liquor stores/gas stations should not be illegal either.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Pyrrho
It's very interesting

If I did any of the things illegals do, I'd be sitting in a prison cell right now

But liberals think it's OK to be hypocritical on the issue because reasons.

What are they doing that would get you thrown in prison?

Seriously?

a reply to: Aazadan

It's because liberal taxpayers don't want to imprison illegal immigrants in the U.S. because it would be tax paid free shelter for them, so they would rather them commit other felonies in order to be apart of the northern capitalistic system.

originally posted by: Pyrrho
Seriously?

Yes, seriously. What are they able to do on the streets of the US that you will be arrested for if you try the same thing?

originally posted by: onequestion
We are a nation of laws and if we are going to be a nice country for our kids to live in in the future we need to continue to abide by those laws.

Do you know the law you are talking about?

Improper entry by alien is the law you are referring to and it states:

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—

Now you have to understand that violations of law are usually classified as civil and criminal offenses. If you notice the wording above the civil penalty applicable to being undocumented means it isn't a criminal offense.

You and anyone else is free to say "that is criminal!" but your opinion does not make it so.

Once they are in they may have to break some laws that are criminal offenses but like anything else they have to be caught, tried and found guilty before they are considered criminals.

a reply to: daskakik

From your link, bold is mine.

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

Sure looks "criminal" to me.

originally posted by: [post=20841845]DBCowboy

Sure looks "criminal" to me.

I can not and do not understand why so many refuse to acknowledge how these people are illegal and criminals.
Yet justify actions at the same time.....

MG