Civilization And Savages

a reply to: Byrd
Hi Byrd,

My example of the herdsman who takes his herds from the highlands to the lowlands is not meant to be an example of someone following the herds , as in the gravettian people following the herds of mammoth, but more in the sense of an alpine herdsman , who's cattle are not native to area nor are they migrational, but the herdsman leads them to and fro.

a reply to: punkinworks10

hehe i actually live in the alps at 1600m.
the cows dont go far, these days, they live in the cowshed for the winter.
but as you point out, it was not always this way. in the winter they used to take them down valley, maybe 20 km away but at an altitude of 600m. (dont know how many got to come back up though (eaten)
so , okay i take your point
i will also stand corrected
( just to say also, that the cows are ok to winter up valley it as long as they are inside, i think it was largely a matter of cattle feed and more food and warmth for the humans. of course in some valleys some people and animals used to stay up all year, they sometimes were cut off till april/may)
theres more sheep these days because of the way cattle and sheep pull up the grass. cattle cause erosian after you have cut all trees for firewood
cows ended up here because the people did. that was more a reflection of religious persecution of the middle of the last millenia, from the cathars to the catholic/protestant pogroms in the dauphine.
i think in the earlier times the mountains were pretty empty of people, :smugglers, those who worked the metals e.g lead, outcasts and goats oh and lots of good hunting, 3 types of large mammels to hunt , ibex, chamois and deer.(non- migratory )

a reply to: username74
Hey username74

That is cool that you live in the Alps, I live in California's San Joaquin valley, at the base of the Sierra Nevada mtns.
Our elevation here is roughly 100meters, but within 100km the elevation rises to 4000m.
I have ridden or hiked most of the available old cattle trails in the high country. And one local older families (early 1900's) used to summer their cattle at about 2100m then in Sept. Drive them all the way down to the valley. There were still a few big cattle drives a couple decades ago, now it's all trucks.

I read a paper a few months ago about the earliest known domestic cattle in the Alps, I believe it was early bronze age 4500kya.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

Its clear that you are implying that race and intelligence somehow go hand in hand. You are entitled to your beliefs. And I agree with you in that regard.. .the " advance, civilized man" is missing a very important intelligence. One that allows him to live in peace and harmony with not only the planet but all of its different inhabitants without the psychosis of pseudo-superiority.

Western intelligence, progress, and "civilization" always creates destruction, laziness, complacency, inequity, chaos, and death. As one member mentioned, this intelligence is perfect for wasting not only natural resources but also making human life commodities on the road to progress. Quite a savage way to exist in my opinion.

There are many forms of intelligence, spiritual and emotional intelligence. These "savages" choose to live a life that is respectful to the earth and all its inhabitants. Killing is not for sport but survival and ceremony. The earth is the provider of shelter and nutrition, not to be divided and sold, since it inherently belongs to no one man. It is not to raped and bled for profits.

These "savages" such as the Native Americans who chose to live from and with the earth, warned these same intelligent men that taking from our Mother Earth will lead mankind down a path of no return. Of course they fell upon deaf ears.. the intelligent man thinks of himself as Superior to such savage superstition and wisdom, after all.

They inherently have the intelligence of knowing that they are a part of this earth, this cycle of life, and respect their place in it. We humans are of the animals but unlike the animals in a very specific way. We are not born with the conscious knowledge of what food we can eat and not be poisoned or the knowledge of what our shelters are made from or how to make them. The entire animal kingdom has us beat in this regard. Indigenous people all over the planet know this and respect it. They revere nature and plants and animals as gifts and brethren.

This type of natural intelligence is indeed a feeling, a rhythm, a heartbeat to which those with this intelligence happily keep in time with...those who are ignorant to this inherited intellect feel none of this. They cannot even keep time and rhythm with their own heart beat.

originally posted by: Istaywoke77
a reply to: Aristotelian1
Western intelligence, progress, and "civilization" always creates destruction, laziness, complacency, inequity, chaos, and death.

I think that if you took a realistic look at other civilizations you could probably make the exact same claim about them.

As one member mentioned, this intelligence is perfect for wasting not only natural resources but also making human life commodities on the road to progress. Quite a savage way to exist in my opinion.

If you think the rest of the animal kingdom (or the plant kingdom, for that matter) is any different, arguments could be made that you are mistaken.

These "savages" choose to live a life that is respectful to the earth and all its inhabitants.

In fact, they're pretty brutal to the land and the creature thereon. It looks very "earth friendly" when you look at tiny communities of 200 people or less. Any cultural group looks respectful to the earth if you only consider 200 of them.

Think about 2 million of them in the same 300 square miles of land. Now their practices of defecating and urinating wherever convenient and getting rid of unwanted items by throwing them outside the dwelling doesn't look as earth-friendly. Praying over a slaughtered animal looks respectful - but the fact is that to feed their families they would run any species into extinction instead of breeding selected animals and eating only those.

They inherently have the intelligence of knowing that they are a part of this earth, this cycle of life, and respect their place in it. We humans are of the animals but unlike the animals in a very specific way. We are not born with the conscious knowledge of what food we can eat and not be poisoned or the knowledge of what our shelters are made from or how to make them. The entire animal kingdom has us beat in this regard. Indigenous people all over the planet know this and respect it. They revere nature and plants and animals as gifts and brethren.

This is the notion of the Noble Savage (from European Romanticism movement.) It doesn't hold up. Animals have to learn what foods to eat (any number of wild animals kill themselves or poison themselves, and predators have to be taught to hunt.) Animals that make shelters (other than insects) are taught by their peers.

Humans have managed the remarkable feat of living together in colonies of millions of individuals (you should see what a million elephants in a small area or a million deer in a small area do to the land.) We are capable of changing and shaping our societies to adapt to the number of individuals and we are capable of cleaning up our own messes (our cities are no longer knee-high in human dung and urine.) As we develop better technology, we live in better harmony with the land than an equal population of any other kind of living being can do.