Black Holes and Time

Hi everyone,

My goal is to set out whether if you pass the event horizon of a black hole does the universe end?

Recently I have been struggling with this question and the big problem is that I am not sure how to ask the question or how to search for an explanation on the internet. I am mostly just going to be rammbling so just bare with me, but I just need to share this and see what other people think.

The usual explanations and articles will contain the following:

Now imagine your colleague Sally is interested in more hands-on investigation of time inside a black hole, and decides to dive towards it. Before she leaves, Sally agrees to flash a light back to you every second. From your perspective, Sally appears to slow down as she approaches the black hole, and the time interval between her flashes of light gradually increases. Additionally, the light she sends back to you gradually gets dimmer and redder. According to your perspective, Sally never actually descends into the black hole; she will travel more and more slowly as she approaches the event horizon, but you will never actually see her reach “the point of no return.” Time comes to a standstill at the event horizon, such that an outside observer will never really see anything fall inside a black hole. Strangely enough, this even includes the surface of the star that collapsed to form the black hole! - See more at: www.skyandtelescope.com...

I think most of us will understand this concept with a basic understanding of relativity.

The question I ask myself is, what happened if that person can travel there and not be ripped apart, and assuming a black hole is an animate object (completely ignoring wormholes, or infinite volume etc). What would your perspective of the outside universe be? (again ignoring red shifting doppler effect and other visual impairments.

According to the formula of time dilation time is infinite inside a black hole (i think?)

if t=t/(sqrt(1-(V^2/C^2))

In laymans terms, if you spent minute right above the singularity of the super massive black hole in the center of the milkyway, how much time will pass on earth? Indeed the entire galaxy, does the entire galaxy end at that moment? Will you experience all possibilities of time at once?

The alleged black hole in the center of the milky way is called Sagittatius A*, has a mass of 4.3 Million suns.

en.wikipedia.org...*

(I am not sure if this calculation was made using the radius of the black hole, but assuming its not the radius must be approx 22 000 000 km if the escape velocity is 300 000 km/s (Light) using G*M/r^2).

Geez I dont know what the point to this is anymore, should have put it in the rant forum

Anyway if my calculations are more or less correct (i hope, but probably not, CORRECT ME)

and assuming that time is not infinite and escape velocity is you can travel faster than light, when time is infinite your speed will be infinite enough to espace (then again you will just get heavier and heavier).

1 minute on earth would equal to 735140712.4 seconds ~ 23.3 years on our black hole

60/sqrt((1-(V^2/C^2)))

So I think the black hole will still have to wait a very long time to swallow us if we are 2.46*10^17km away (assuming it sucks us in linearly and I know there are millions of other factors and orbits that are ignored) it will still take 8.199*10^11 earth years to swallow us whole.

This whole thing just brought new questions to be, what does it mean for time to be infinite? and what the hell is up with Black holes? How is it possible that the more mass a black hole sucks up, does it get smaller in diameter or is the gravitational constant under threat past the event horizon?

What do you guys think?

Regards

Well okay I found this,

www.quora.com...

It is a pretty good explanation of the size of black holes

Outline of the Answer Two inertial observers will agree on the ground state of a quantum field However, an accelerating observer and a constant velocity observer will NOT agree on the quantum field they see. An accelerated observer will see a black body thermal bath of photons. This effect is called the Unruh effect and the Unruh temperature is directly proportional to the acceleration. By the equivalence principle, what an observer held stationary in the gravitational field experiences above a black hole is indistinguishable from that of the accelerated observer, and therefore should also see a black body spectrum, analogous to the Unruh radiation, emanating from the black hole. If we can show that the surface gravity of a black hole, which is analogous to the Unruh acceleration, is inversely proportional to the black hole mass, then we have shown that smaller black holes radiate at higher temperatures the large black holes. If it can be shown that smaller black holes have higher temperatures, then it can be shown the small black holes evaporate at a greater rate.

Does this mean our black hole will evaporate faster then anything else in our galaxy? What happens when our black hole evaporates?

a reply to: kykweer

that's a mind trip... just thinking about what those forces do to the laws of physics baffles me. "Time is at a stand-still at the event horizon"

just Amazing. Thank you for sharing kykweer

Hmmm is hawking radation the explanation why the black hole cant absorb more mass, thus the diameter does not matter ~ i.e. the singularity.

a reply to: kykweer

you would appreciate this article on Hawking Radiation and a black hole's finite lifespan: www.slate.com...

originally posted by: kykweer
Hi everyone,

My goal is to set out whether if you pass the event horizon of a black hole does the universe end?

I've been pondering this for some years (and have posted elsewhere), and I believe the short answer is, yes - As you fall through the event horizon of a black hole, you watch the universe die.

One of the side-effects of this concerns mass distribution in and around a black hole. Generally, it has been assumed that all of the mass will be in the singularity at the heart of a black hole. However, for outside observers, I do not think this would be the case.

As the star collapses, at the moment the density increases to the point where the event horizon forms, the material will be divided into that which is within the event horizon and that which is not. That which is within the event horizon falls into the singularity. For us intrepid observers observing from a safe distance, the collapsing material outside the event horizon cannot (under General Relativity) ever fall through the horizon within the lifetime of the universe. Thus all of the mass of material falling into a black hole would appear to plate itself around the outside of the event horizon. However, observing this monatomic shell would be very difficult, since the light from it would be drastically red-shifted into the far radio spectrum.

a reply to: kykweer

I have my own crazy ideas about Black Holes. I think they contain the history of the universe until it gets recycled.

a reply to: kykweer

I struggle wrapping my head around black hole time dilation.

Supposedly it takes an infinite amount of time -- from the point of view of an outside observer -- for something to fall into a black hole. So if the outside observer could live infinitely long, that observer would never see an object actually travel past the event horizon of the black hole.

To the thing falling into the black hole (say it's another person who is able to magically withstand the environment of the black hole), time would seem normal, and they would not notice the time dilation, and they would experience themselves falling through the event horizon of the black hole, while the universe around them outside the black hole would be speeding along, with that outside universe's time passing instantly before their eyes.

HOWEVER, when does the thing falling into the black hole ever do so? The outside observer is watching for an infinitely long time (watching for eternity) and they never see it happen, so how does the person falling into the black hole actually experience falling in as if time is passing normally...

...I mean, when did it happen? It didn't happen during the infinite period that the outside observer was watching. So when?

What am I missing here?

a reply to: kykweer

Well let me start by saying our view of blackholes had changed a lot with quantum mechanics. The idea of an event horizon is gone. It's been replaced by what's called an apparent horizon. Meanin an area where things are slowed down but this is O KY temporary. Things can indeed escape a black hole it just tends to garbled up the information fitst. For example the beeps from her ship would be redshifed but also intermixed with a lot of other frequencies bouncing around inside. As far as time time can't stop never happen you can't have motion without time. So even in a black hole things will still move in fact falling into a super blackholes you wouldn't even notice. an apparent horizon suspends matter and energy from trying to escape — and when it does escape due to the wild fluctuations within a black hole. Quantum mechanics tells us yes particall can escape

I am sorry if it's a dumb question, but escape where?

lets keep in mind this is still all theoretical.

there may be one day we meet a species out there that tells us our theories are wrong.. and here's why.

the way we explain a lot of things may not actually be whats happening. scientists have already agreed on this. blackhole and time theories are no different. its all based on our perception and how we have a need to quantify those said perceptions.

so to theorize based on a theory will yield a number of other theories

Here's my take.

When dealing with electricity, depending on what you need to power, determines what amperage and/or voltage that device/machine needs.


Think about your home and the electricity it receives in both Amps and Volts (amps being volume and volts being current). When you have a circuit receiving 120v but your device only needs 24v to operate, what you need than is a "step-down" transformer, let's call that the sun. Now conversely, let's say you need to send power a very long distance. To do that you need to "step up" the voltage because you lose it over distance. We shall call that a black hole.

Are there geyser eruptions of material visible which are the output from a black hole that's present in another timeline, or universe? I mean, if something goes in, it comes out someplace...doesn't it?

I think you have me head spins and I don't like it

For myself personally, I care not of this black hole thing as it doesn't 'matter' (heh) to me regardless.

I'll never see one, experience one, or understand its nature whatever that maybe.

I'm more concerned why someone like yourself, OP, and those other minds alike, spin your minds with this redundant stuff?

I don't mean this in a condescending way, truely I can't understand why it actually means anything to such people, if meaning is even involved with such a mental pursuit.

It's interesting for sure, but to myself, very redundant.

"Black Holes", just are what they are. A galactic construct, a very nature created within the impossible.

It just is! I leave it at that and save the headache, heh.

Cheers

Yes, time is infinite as it must be to have existed when the big bang occurred.
With that said - the other side of a black holes exists and meets another
space time continuum. There are multiverses that lie beyond the other
side of the black hole. Popular thought has it that matter is destroyed by
the immense forces that are present in the event horizon when it is drawn
nearer and nearer to the center - but that does not preclude, through
conservation of energy, it exiting to another dimension.

Portals like wormholes and quasars do also conceal infinite dimensions and
number of universes. It's up to the wizards like Hawking to figure it out.



a reply to: kykweer

a reply to: kykweer

For the confused: there are three posters in the thread who understand the problem correctly. They are Saint Exupery, SoylentGreenIsPeople and dragonrdr.

SoylentGreenIsPeople's final question is answered in Saint Exupery's post. Dragonrdr adds the quantum perspective, which expands the scope of the picture without substantially changing it.

ATS, if you really want to know the answer to the OP question, these are the posts to read.

To the person who says it's all theory: look up in the sky. The reality of what these guys describe is smeared all round every single black hole we have ever identified, broadcasting their presence for megaparsecs around.

Susskind and Hossenfelder have just about laid Hawking's Radiation to rest. The problem that Hawking injected Hawking's Radiation for did not exist in the first place.

And , Einstein added time dilation because he was "stuck" and didnt know what to do . Took him over 2 years to add something he still wasnt sure about.

Not being an astrophysicist, I read that there were some parts of quantum theory that suggested that what goes in a black hole, is transferred to a new universe, or dimension, but probably not in any recognizable form... Don't know how much this holds any water, but it is an interesting possibility none the less.

Would it not be incredible if black holes are really the "wormholes", that we all speculate exist?

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
a reply to: kykweer
...I mean, when did it happen? It didn't happen during the infinite period that the outside observer was watching. So when?

What am I missing here?

Well, since time is relative to any frame of reference, the infalling person will experience time flowing normally. If they know their distance from the black hole, and that black hole's size, as well as their rate of acceleration towards it, they can calculate the moment they'd be going through the event horizon, just like you'd calculate the moment you'd hit the Earth's atmosphere when reentering from orbit.

I've read that, in reality, the traveller will never see themselves getting "immersed" into the blackness of the event horizon; it will seem to recede in front of them all the way to the singularity. A black hole isn't like a giant drop of ink into which you could dive, it's just a volume of spacetime curved by gravity to an extreme degree.

And to answer the OP, the traveller will see the universe speed up and blue-shift as they approach the event horizon. So yeah, by the strange application of the time-dilation working in the opposite way, the traveller at the event horizon will get blasted by huge amounts of X-rays and gamma rays from all that blue-shifted light coming from the universe, and actually see all of its future history unfold in an instant.

Mind. Blown.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: kykweer

To the person who says it's all theory: look up in the sky. The reality of what these guys describe is smeared all round every single black hole we have ever identified, broadcasting their presence for megaparsecs around.

so the people in the field, the people whom come up with complex equations and try to answer questions we have no authority over call them 'theories' .
and theoretical physicists... what are they....
and you say dont listen to people who say its all theories, then dont listen to those who come up with the 'theories' because thats what they call them too.

im not sure what the last part of your post attempted to say
....