Question about Roswell/Brazel/Marcel

to think aliens could master interstellar travel yet, not think to include seat belts or any safety device makes me wonder.
as for fallen angels, they need shoddy spacecraft to fly around?

a reply to: stinkelbaum

The fallen angels and flawed spacecraft is an interesting issue.

I don't know of a great answer. It is what it is.

It is somewhat logical that they would have flawed things--though--given that they are FALLEN angels.

Then there's Ezekiel's 'chariot.'

And, oddly, Jesse DuPlantis had a 'visit to Heaven' such that when he came back and walked from the back of the church to the platform to speak--folks looked in awe at his countenance--nudged one another and pointed. He didn't know what was going on. He didn't see the same thing in the mirror after his shower, just prior thereto. Come to find out--he was glowing a la like Moses--from being in the Presence of Yehovah.

Anyway--he reported going to and coming from Heaven in a kind of (like a ski thing) Gondola container. He didn't see nor know any other thing about it.

Those are the only two bits of data I have from the other, Godly, side about ''super natural" flight vehicles.

a reply to: LinkZelda

Im highly confused about that last part. Why would they think the debris was from a flying saucer ?

My thought is that if this was Mogul, they were ordered to come up with a cover story and because flying saucers were the hot topic of the day, that was their obvious choice for a cover story. But then since that cover story drew too much attention to the "crash", it was changed it to a weather balloon. Over time, the story just kind of grew.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Folks who think it was Mogul have evidently done little to no serious research into the FACTS of such goings on in that era.

imho, the Mogul farce has been very thoroughly proven false.

Merely the fact that such 'dummies' were not used until several years AFTER Roswell proves Mogul false on that one fact alone.

a reply to: BO XIAN

I thought the 'crash dummies' was used to explain away the existence of dead bodies at any one of the possible crash sites that have been thrown up over the years. It doesn't disprove the Mogul theory.

In my opinion Roswell is whatever you want to make of it.

People will always find something to back up what they want to have happened (or not happened) in the desert back in 1947. There are no photos of the debris field, no photos of alien dead bodies, no 'memory' metal and the story was rarely mentioned for 30 years until the late 1970s. So all you can go on is a few old newspaper reports and anecdotal evidence.

a reply to: mirageman

It is a historic fact that the Mogul dummies were not used (at all, anywhere) until . . . forget the specifics . . . say 4-7 years AFTER Roswell.

THEREFORE

they COULD NOT have been involved with Roswell.

The government's fairy tale that they were so involved with Roswell was totally farcical from the beginning.

I almost felt sorry for the idiot government stooges that had to come up with that fairy tale--it was soooooo stupid on the face of it from the git-go.

a reply to: mirageman

However, the anecdotal evidence now involves many 100's of hours of solid personal witness and related witness testimonies. It's been possible to cross verify a lot of factoids.

a reply to: BO XIAN

I get your point and I totally agree the dummies were not deployed until after 1947.

I feel like this is being pedantic as well - sorry. But just to be clear as it illustrates your own point. Mogul was a secret balloon project to check for nuclear detonations in the atmosphere that ended in 1949. There were no 'Mogul dummies'. The test dummies were used in the 1950s in Project Highdive and a few others.

So no way could they explain Roswell unless of course people had confused events years apart. Which is what the government reports were hinting at as these stories only began to surface 35-40 years later.

When you come to all the anecdotal evidence some of it is interesting and compelling some of it was also proven to be false.

Like I said earlier Roswell is whatever you want to make of it.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: mirageman

It is a historic fact that the Mogul dummies were not used (at all, anywhere) until . . . forget the specifics . . . say 4-7 years AFTER Roswell.

THEREFORE

they COULD NOT have been involved with Roswell.

The government's fairy tale that they were so involved with Roswell was totally farcical from the beginning.

I almost felt sorry for the idiot government stooges that had to come up with that fairy tale--it was soooooo stupid on the face of it from the git-go.

The "crash" at Roswell is separate from the claim of alien bodies at a different site. There's zero evidence of a second site, only tales. Using dummies as an explanation was given because the lore of Roswell had grown so large after many decades, it began to include this separate site and needed to be addressed. Faulty memories of dummies being dropped in the 50s/60s combined with other incidents was used, not a claim of dummies were dropped in 1947. If you read "The Roswell Report: Case Closed" that would be understood. The subject of alien bodies honestly should have never been addressed or acknowledged.

You do know there were two reports, right? The first addressing the crash at Roswell- "The Roswell Report: Fact vs. Fiction in the New Mexico Desert" and Mogul, and the second I mentioned above for the alien bodies. You seem to be mistakenly mixing the two into one.

I want to clarify... You said this above:

Merely the fact that such 'dummies' were not used until several years AFTER Roswell proves Mogul false on that one fact alone.

Which leads me to believe that the explanation of Mogul and the dummies were used together in your quote. They were addressed separately.

From "The Roswell Report: Case Closed" foreword:

Although Mogul components clearly accounted for the claims of "flying saucer" debris in 1947, lingering questions remained concerning anecdotal accounts that included descriptions of "alien" bodies. The issue of bodies was not discussed extensively in the 1994 report because there were not any bodies connected with the events that occurred in 1947.

LINK
Never-the-less they still felt compelled to give an explanation. Which to me is as ridiculous as the claim of alien bodies.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

I confess that it's been 20 years or so since I read such reports. I grew weary of the case and of the vast amount of seeming chaff in the material.

It's conceivable that I'm combining 2 into one. I do personally believe there were 2 crash sites near Roswell.

I just recall reading a very convincing narrative that the Mogul stuff did NOT OCCUR historically until after the Roswell crash and therefore could not have been the military project that Roswell was purportedly mistaken for. I was convinced on reading whatever I read at that time that the whole Mogul explanation was a total stupid charade.

BTW, FWIW, I had a relative who worked near S4 in Nev . . . with binoculars . . . working with a high ranking German scientist on the atomic tests. He saw craft routinely and was told a lot of 'off the record' stuff. He and a buddy also investigated the Aztec crash site not long after everything was quickly hauled away.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

I think the mortician and purported nurse narratives are fairly convincing.

And, I believe Jesse Marcel Jr's convictions on such things to be fairly well founded. He spent a lot of time in the area. He also talked to a number of people over the years.

a reply to: BO XIAN

I think the mortician and purported nurse narratives are fairly convincing.

I would look at that aspect again as it seems that Glenn Dennis (the mortician) was probably not telling the truth about the nurse (Naomi Self - could never be traced).

Kevin Randle's blog illustrates the problem with the story.

Jesse Marcel Jr. always seemed like a fairly upstanding guy. He was always loyal to his father (naturally) but he also confirmed his father never saw any alien bodies.

However Roswell is so convoluted it's hard making sense of it all. I suspect that parts of the Aztec story may have actually seeped into the Roswell mythology as well.

a reply to: mirageman

Been a while since I looked at Randle's (sp?) stuff . . . will give a gander again. Thanks for the link.

I would EXPECT that the RN would disappear or be disappeared given all the givens.

Convoluted to the max, indeed.

Has there ever been a team of experienced forensic artifact researchers do an actual grid search at the crash sites and surrounding areas? If there was a crash in that magnitude as purported then there has to be something still there that has been missed during the clean ups.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Folks who think it was Mogul have evidently done little to no serious research into the FACTS of such goings on in that era.

imho, the Mogul farce has been very thoroughly proven false.

Merely the fact that such 'dummies' were not used until several years AFTER Roswell proves Mogul false on that one fact alone.

I was discussing the initial press release, not alien bodies but that seems to have been addressed. As far as 'Mogul', I don't think its been thoroughly proven false. Maybe it hasn't been shown to be conclusively Mogul but the material described initially seems to fit something similar. Whatever it was seems to fit in with the times and with the start of the cold war. Obviously the story has grown since that initial press release and how believable people come across is of little value.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Never-the-less they still felt compelled to give an explanation. Which to me is as ridiculous as the claim of alien bodies.

I remember watching that on TV when they came out with it. It is absurd and only backfires because people than have an easy target. Its a free straw man. Just say "we don't know anything about alien bodies." and be done with it. Personally, I think they were escaped circus monkeys that were painted silver and people got confused and were remembering episodes of lost in space. I'm still working out the kinks on that thought.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
Merely the fact that such 'dummies' were not used until several years AFTER Roswell proves Mogul false on that one fact alone.

Actually, there were no reports of "bodies" at Roswell until many years later....

originally posted by: BO XIAN
I just recall reading a very convincing narrative that the Mogul stuff did NOT OCCUR historically until after the Roswell crash and therefore could not have been the military project that Roswell was purportedly mistaken for. I was convinced on reading whatever I read at that time that the whole Mogul explanation was a total stupid charade.

Moguls Field Operations Director Albert Crary kept a journal of his activities that would say differently. In the "official capacity" Mogul was first launched with a full array on June 5, 1947:

The first phase of NYU launches in Alamogordo was from May 28th until June 7th, the second from June 27 until July 8th. Flights 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 were all launches before July 8th. The Roswell "flying disc/saucer" story was reported on July 8th. So that fits into the window of your claim of "Mogul stuff did NOT OCCUR historically until after the Roswell crash" when 5 launches occurred before that date.

As for the Roswell "alien spacecraft", from Crarys diary entry on June 4th:

Now imagine a "regular" NYU balloon arrangement, as shown below, being launched on the June 4th:

This isn't a full Mogul balloon array as shown below with a radiosonde transmitter (which replaced the radar targets on flight #5), parachute, recovery tags, etc:

Instead, it could have been one of two things. A field test with constant-level balloons launched with several radar targets attached for testing using the existing Alamogordo V-2 rocket radar. The NYU team used multiple targets assuming tracking would be easier. This proved inadequate and was replaced by the radiosonde transmitter and receiver used on Mogul flight #5 the next day. The flight also could have been the setup for Mogul flight #4, (which I think is the most likely scenario) but scrapped because of clouds and still launched seeing as the balloons would have been inflated early in the morning and targets attached. The lower portion with the ballast, lift equipment, squibs, parachute, etc. weren't included on the flight.

So you have a recorded balloon launch on June 4th, that likely had multiple balloons, radar targets, and the sonobouy listed for recording. It would be the 4th flight in succession from the first launched at Alamogordo on May 29th (#3), one the next day (#5), and the two previous in the northeast.

The radar targets used by the NYU group had gone through several changes because of previous problems of breakup in flight according to Charles Moore. The radar target material and their properties used on the first flights:
Balsa wood sticks dipped in an Elmers Glue type of substance:

Foil with a strong backing:


Reinforcing tape to help attach the foil/paper to the sticks:


On #22 on the ML-307C/AP radar target blueprint, it has the following notation for some of the seams:
"SHALL BE 'SCOTCH' ACETATE FILM TAPE (?) AS MADE BY MINNESOTA MINING & MFG CO ST PAUL, MINN OR EQUAL"

This has been pointed out before, but during the time period, Scotch, Texcel, Sellophane, Durex, and others made acetate/cellophane tape with printed designs. The bottom right photograph is to illustrate the varied purposes for tape:

With one of the companies above, or any targets that were said to be produced in China or Japan, it's possible that purple/pink tape with floral or "tape with flowers printed upon it" as Mac Brazel described, could have been printed on the attached tape.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Strip away the flight number notations and the name Mogul. Focus on a balloon flight that was launched on June 4th by the NYU balloon group carrying 3+ balloons, 3 or more radar targets, and a sonobouy as shown above. It's lost because of poor tracking of the targets and not recovered. Winds carry the flight north, as with flight #5 which crashed 25 miles east of Roswell the next day. Mac Brazel find the debris 10 days later. He picks up and stows away a portion of the debris noticing nothing that extraordinary about it other than maybe the amount and the fact that it was scattered and broken up into pieces over a large area and wasn't intact like the previous 1 balloon/1 target weather balloons he likely found. On June 24th, 10 days later, the Kenneth Arnold's flying saucer story comes out and is carried across the country. UFO recovery rewards begin to be offered. Brazel now wonders, with a reward in mind and 2 weeks later, if he found pieces of a flying saucer because of the unusual amount of debris, when previously what he found was of no consequence to him.

It baffles me how seemingly intelligent people gloss over the fact that in June/July 1947 80 miles southwest of the crash site in Alamogordo, balloons were being launched carrying radar targets constructed with the small sticks and foil exactly as the claimed construction of an alien spacecraft. The fact alone of the small sticks and foil, even without the supporting evidence of a balloon program, points to human construction of radar targets of the time and area. The arguments that Mogul flight #4 was never launched mean nothing when you look at Crary's journal stating a "regular" or simple balloon array was launched with parts likely consistent with what Brazel found.