Two Food For Thoughts About Buddhism

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Only the equating of Nirvana with Swarga/heaven is incorrect, the rest is fine, sorry! The latter may precede Nirvana but not after. Once the subject is snuffed out or blown out, whatever - the subject, object and the link between them all collapse into the ground of be-ness. Think of a drop of water falling/entering the ocean. There can be no more experiencing after that happens. Prior to that, there will be a moment of tremendous rapture, yes, which is immediately prior to that annihilation of self and attendant separation. This experience is similar to the sexual climax where rapture, the wish for death are also felt. Unfortunately, the similarity is only superficial for, after the physical act, the desire to repeat it resurfaces - again and again.

Nirvana is the final supreme ending, the ultimate death of experiences and experiencing. More pertinently, the extinction of desire and rebirth, the fundamentals of Buddhist teachings. To experience anything, there has to be a subject, object and the link between the two. In order words, fragmentation is necessary, the fragmentation into subject, object, etc. Fragmentation is what the so-called "the FALL from Grace" really means, i.e. the fall into duality and multiplicity, which is fragmentation.

The fall or fragmentation is documented in physical (and probably allegorical) terms in ancient Greek accounts - that humans were originally whole beings, both male and female being bound together as one. But because they were so powerful, and the gods were fearful of this, they petitioned the power-that-be to split whole humans into 2 separate beings, and the job of separating them fell on Apollo. This is the reason why each half would, to this day, spend his/her entire existence looking for the other half - seeking to be become whole again! So they have no more time left to challenge the gods - threat squashed! How charming!

The Fall, in the case of Adam & Eve, was set in motion from the desire to experience what it was like to be God. So their Nirvanic state, a whole/holistic state, had to fragment, giving birth to duality, multiplicity, etc. Otherwise, it is simply not possible to experience anything at all. Can you now see that knowledge, experience and desire are essentially the same thing? Recall in the Garden a reference to he tree called The Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil (duality). The price for the desire to experience ----- > fragmentation ------ > fall ------ > vicious cycle of rebirth. "Be careful what you wish for", as the adage darkly warns us, huh!

originally posted by: Yavanna
When Prince Siddhārtha Gautama found out about the external world, he abandoned his old life. Including his wife and his kids.
He could have shown them the truth, and they could have helped the world together. Instead, he left them without explaining anything, according to the myth. I'm no expert in marriage, but I'm pretty sure such an action caused lots of hurt to Siddhārtha's family, to be abandoned like that, as if they didn't any longer mattered.

Contradiction. The first action of a man determined to end suffering was to cause suffering to his own wife and kids.

That was the first food for thought.

The final stage of growth is leaving the family, and seeking solitude for spiritual reasons.
One does not 'abandon' the family in those latter years (the kids are usually on their own...).
One prepares the family to do well without your presence.
That is all from the Hindu tradition!
No one gets 'abandoned'...
So much for your first 'question'.


Second Food For Thought:

I just discovered that the man responsible for bringing Buddhism philosophy to the Western world, Allan Bennet, is a member of the Hermetic Order Of The Golden Dawn...
an Egyptian occult magic based sect.
Not only that, a friend of none other than Aleister Crowley.

At this point, I would have to ask; "So what!?"
Are you attempting to discredit the man with this attempt at an ad-hom attack?

Just two food for thoughts about Buddhism, a religion that is more and more forced upon people, with its association to Quantum Physics, resulting in the highly popular yet highly pseudoscientific

What lies!
Xtian?
And the bias and ignorance mounts...

a reply to: Rextiberius

That state of non separation can be achieved its called kundalini, or devine marriage of ones energies brought into balance of expression. Its no wonder Apollo gets credit being the god of war, cease that natural expression early as possible by repressing a male only to logic so emotions dont get in the way for battle unless its one of anger, and vice versa for females to be taught to repress logic so their emotional nurturing side wants express only propagating the species. Warriors and keep churning them out... rinse repeat through that repression to conquer lands, thats why the roman empire grew so damned huge in its conquest and domination with the warrior class.

While logic may appear great for a Vulcan science officer the show also made sure to show its weakness when faced with situations requiring ration.

Extreme modes of being and their expression is pretty obvious is one cares to really make a very close study of it... those that have in both men and women describe a feeling of wholeness and not feeling imcomplete or insecure in themselves like they have to prove their role of manliness(breaking out the whoop ass) or womanliness(breaking out the ass). Thats of course atypical of the cycle of violence and jealousy rampant in society, where typically the male tries to dominate and control and limit the females growth or dress out of insecurity of other male suitors.

Some of course are comfortable in those predefined programmed roles of gender repression, but certinally not all by a long shot, especially when they drop that and become a partner to each other that desire to encourage each other to grow and achieve what they want to achieve separate and together... this latter of course is what gets defined as a healthy happy relationship, a man expressing only jealousy or anger and trying to control... does not make women feel safe secure nor protected... however there is the case where women have grown up in homes where that was the norm and have not broken the cycle or think that is the norm and dont know any better in ignorance that, that is not healthy but cant seem to help but keep going after that same sort of person time after time.

The experience of nirvana is to simply detach from the entire conceptual process that is expressed as an ego that experience is theirs and theirs alone, such as the eye sees but does not see bias or labels, the ear hears but does not label the sound when heard, same with the other senses, no label such as comfort or discomfort, the body seeks ease by scratching or shifting on its own like breathing or te heart beat, the other senses function the same the eyes just sees, the ear just hears, and there is no sense of mind to discriminate a bias or duality... many take this as all of being one in rote conceptual understanding... which is not the case at all, it is simply non attachment to anything conceptual as concepts have a dependency chain that requires other concepts to exist, they are like a shadow or a dream and illusory in nature when so attached, one can fully experience without being thusly attached, and that state is simply being... that is of course nirvana while one still has form, once the body dissolves through death then it can be any form in pure awareness yet no attachment, one moment a frog, next moment an amoeba, next moment a sperm, next moment... whatever blowing along like the wind, unless one decides to take birth in human form again, the same can be accomplished at any time after realization and existing in ones form one just decides to not come back to the body and shed it... like an out of body experience but cutting the cord.

The experience of void or all pervasive space is typically accompanied by bliss the first time, that is not the fruit of nirvana... that is simply planting the seed but yes it is enlightenment, but there are stages until that fruit drops or ripens on its own at some point in practice, like it or not, want it or not it just happens... then and only then is there absolutely no doubt, but adjusting to it does take getting used too like being tossed into a pool and learning to swim never having been in a pool.

Buddhism advocates the middle path.

He should not have abandoned his family to pursue his search. His desertion of them was distinctly "unBuddhist".

originally posted by: Yavanna
Buddhism is generally about ending suffering, and trying to cause the least harm possible to those around you. I get that, its a philosophy that's found across the world, in almost every religions and belief systems.

Too bad the Dalai Lama or any of the other religious leaders in similar situations don't remind people within their religion such as this guy (or denounce them):

Babylon the Great: Reasoning

In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole.
...
Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide

“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.

Their gods: There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40) “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato’s] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

Use of images: “[In Mesopotamian religion] the role of the image was central in the cult as well as in private worship, as the wide distribution of cheap replicas of such images shows. Fundamentally, the deity was considered present in its image if it showed certain specific features and paraphernalia and was cared for in the appropriate manner.”—Ancient Mesopotamia—Portrait of a Dead Civilization (Chicago, 1964), A. L. Oppenheim, p. 184.

Belief regarding death: “Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought [in Babylon] ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, p. 556.

Position of the priesthood: “The distinction between priest and layman is characteristic of this [Babylonian] religion.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1948), Vol. 2, p. 861.

Practice of astrology, divination, magic, and sorcery: Historian A. H. Sayce writes: “[In] the religion of ancient Babylonia . . . every object and force of nature was supposed to have its zi or spirit, who could be controlled by the magical exorcisms of the Shaman, or sorcerer-priest.” (The History of Nations, New York, 1928, Vol. I, p. 96) “The Chaldeans [Babylonians] made great progress in the study of astronomy through an effort to discover the future in the stars. This art we call ‘astrology.’”—The Dawn of Civilization and Life in the Ancient East (Chicago, 1938), R. M. Engberg, p. 230.

Babylon the Great is like an immoral harlot, one living in shameless luxury

Revelation 17:1-5 says: “‘Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters [peoples], with whom the kings [political rulers] of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.’ . . . And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.’” Revelation 18:7 adds that “she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury.”

Is it not true that the dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, though this has resulted in suffering for the common people? Is it not also true that their higher clergy live in luxury, even though many of the people to whom they should minister may be impoverished?

Note that in the video above that the Burmese government and that group of monks are very friendly with eachother, regarding the first question above (also note the number 969, an ironic play on 666).

a reply to: Yavanna This is interesting to me because I had been thinking of the very same thing concerning Siddhartha leaving his wife and family behind.

I had wondered if this would be the one thing that keeps him in any sort of karmic cycle. I read about reincarnation (I don't believe and I don't disbelieve...) and from what I understand unresolved feelings like hurt or abandonment will eventually have to be worked out through an incarnation, either with the same soul or with a different soul.

I like to think this is the one and only reason Buddha would have to return, to work through any issue caused by leaving his family behind, imparting his wisdom along the way.

a reply to: Yavanna

Once upon a time, here, ATS was full of ideas and thought-provoking posts, and alternative science ideas, etc. Now, its people saying the same thing over and over...

Thank you for being the 100th person to bring that up...over and over...

Not everyone has had the good fortune to have been here once upon a time. For you, what seems to be over and over, is something new to others. Yes, I read the intolerant comments that one should first do their research, but for you original folk, that was perhaps doable 10 years ago.

There is a generation gap on ATS that has nothing to do with age. Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest.



Now, about your 2 comments. On the first, your thoughts nudged me to think that perhaps the Prince did not "show them the truth" because this is something that each of us must discover on our own?

Maybe one of our Buddhists can expound on this?

And regarding Aleister Crowley, I hesitate to share that I own a few of his earlier works. My teacher sent me his library, one book at a time, and I protested bitterly when I found myself unwrapping these unwanted words. But there was a time when Crowley showed promise and made a positive contribution.

If you want to speak about the good old times, surely those times should be considered. I still marvel, when I am looking for a quote from Gurdjieff, and find a story where Crowley came to visit and was kicked out, red faced. I still marvel when I read that the once abandoned sardine factories, where I once played as a child, were the very same factories where Alice Bailey once worked. I still marvel when I pick up a book by Alan Watts or Manly Hall, and I find my teacher's stamp of Merlin, and a scribble in pencil, "I knew this guy."

CF

a reply to: peppycat

I like the way you think.

I returned to this post to add another idea. Perhaps it is metaphor, even if also true. Perhaps the Prince represents the Intellectual Center of man and his wife, the Emotional Center, and the child, the product, or Ego, and it is when he had become Enlightened, full of Light, that the other three become another side of man's journey, which part perhaps remains hidden in the Shadow....but I have a way of mixing metaphors...probably because I never really knew one...

CF