If you don't embrace change, you are racist and bigoted.

a reply to: Freija

I thought we were talking about NC, this is a Virginia case.

a reply to: network dude

Maybe you don't understand the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals? This decision sets a national precedent for the interpretation of sex discrimination under Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972. This is not the first ruling on this matter. These cases are being won across the country but this additional one is pretty decisive.

a reply to: Freija

Isn't this exactly what you want? NC should be forced to do whatever the liberal mafia wants and we can be like the LA of the East coast.

a reply to: network dude

Yes, this is a good thing and a step in the right direction.

I'm sorry if your state wishes to remain an enclave of prejudice and bigotry or somehow feels itself exempt from laws that apply to the rest of the country like this Title IX ruling. Maybe you should secede from the union.

Oh wait.

a reply to: Freija

trust me, none of us really have any say so in this. If you watch what's happening, NC is being strong armed into doing what the liberal mafia wants.

But I do have a question for you. And BTW, thanks for conversing with me on this and not slamming me to bad for my opinion.

With this transgender child in Virginia winning the right to challenge the school system. Once the School does the only thing it really can to accommodate this student and make it a production to clear the bathroom of all students for this ONE student to use the restroom, do you think that will make this one student feel a bit different than all the other kids? I mean, much more so than they already do.

It just baffles me that for years, everyone has been fighting for equality, and now, a small group is fighting to be different and have different rules, just for them. It just goes against what I thought this was all supposed to be about.

a reply to: network dude

Transgender boys and girls and their parents don't want anything other than to be treated like any other boys and girls. The boy at the center of this suit had been using the boy's bathroom without incident or fanfare until some of the PARENTS complained about it.

If you'll look into these cases, you will find most of the time the students are supportive of their classmates or simply don't care. It is when the parents, that don't even use school bathrooms get involved and start making waves is what starts trouble and turns this whole thing into a cluster and public spectacle.

a reply to: Freija

what they 'want', really isn't an option. What they will get, it singled out, there will be trouble figuring out how to accommodate these few students, and instead of their classmates being supportive or just ignoring it, they will be forced to accept the changes, and likely harbor animosity.

Blame whomever you like, but at the end of the day, ALL the kids will suffer from this.

Rather than trying to figure out how to deal with a few (a very, very few) kids with this gender identity issue, all institutions will be FORCED to provide for them, and it will likely move the relations and tolerance backwards.

But for the sake of understanding, why is it that some kids, feel different, so they identify as "gay", yet others identify as the complete opposite sex? Wouldn't "gay" have offered the same end result? (honest question from a straight white old person)

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: network dude

I think NC has a wide variety of people, Asheville being one of the most liberal places on the planet. HB2 was horribly implemented and is a reaction and understandably so, to people who believe their gender doesn't correspond to their brains. Now I'm open and as long as you don't hurt anyone, do what you want, but I'm still on the fence letting full grown men into the bathroom alone with females even more so if it was my daughter.

I believe we can find a solution without both sides throwing temper tantrums and name calling. Although, I highly doubt the public can act like grown ups

I am fairly confident that Ashevill is NOT "...one of the most liberal places on the planet." Heck, not even in the United States.

San Francisco, Sealltle, Minneapolis, Boston, and New York City all say 'Hello'.

originally posted by: network dude
But for the sake of understanding, why is it that some kids, feel different, so they identify as "gay", yet others identify as the complete opposite sex? Wouldn't "gay" have offered the same end result? (honest question from a straight white old person)

Aw come on! Being a straight white old person doesn't get you off the hook. I'm a straight (mostly) white old person too! I'm 61 and my brain still works so you've got no excuse!

If you don't mind, I have to step back for a sec and have a WTF moment. After the conversations in your other thread, I am honestly and quite frankly shocked to read the questions in your last paragraph. I had no idea of your level of understanding about or of transgender children and suddenly it feels like I haven't been doing my job well enough as an educator and advocate. If you will please indulge me for a minute, I will try to make up for my deficient performance.

Before proceeding, the words sex and gender seem like the same thing to most and are often used interchangeably but have different meanings depending on context. To simplistically and stereotypically illustrate - sex is male or female (and between the legs) and gender is boy/girl, man/woman (and between the ears). One is physical fact and usually obvious at birth. The other is who we are as people, our personality and who we feel ourselves to be in heart and soul and how we show ourselves to others which is only evident as we grow and develop.

Transgender kids that have this gender dysphoria thing come to know who they are inside and to themselves, that their personality and spirit does not mesh with the body they were born into nor does the social role in life and expected gendered behavior of being a rough and tumble little boy as an example, match their personality or interests. Even as a small child, didn't you do boy things and not want to be seen weak or as a sissy doing "girl stuff"? This is gender. For some of these kids, they experience their own sense of being a boy or a girl just as strongly or confidently as any other kid, it just happens to be incongruent with their anatomy. This is more than boys that play with dolls or girls with dump trucks. Most kids go through a phase of exploring cross gender play. This is a whole lot more and not a phase for transgender kids.

Now, to address your comments directly, being a transgender kid has nothing to do with being gay or with sexuality or with making a political statement or having a fetish or kink anything like that and why even very young children (3-5) can be transgender, way before kids have any notion of sexuality or who they are attracted to. I'm going to guess that by the time you were in first grade if not much earlier, had someone asked, you would have said "I'm a boy". Knowing which one you are comes very early in life for everyone.



For some of these kids, they are non-functional and it is impossible to live as something and someone that feels like a complete lie or total falsehood to them. To most parent's angst, the only thing usually helping these kids is to let them socially transition to live as the other gender which is nothing more than a change of name, pronouns, clothing and hairstyle. Children do not take hormones or change sex but these kids are under close medical evaluation and receive counseling and therapy as do their parents while they struggle to learn everything about this there is to know. This is not fun, not a game or a phase or a choice for these kids and very difficult for all involved.

Other kids fight these feelings with all their might or don't understand what they are feeling or that anything can be done about it. Another common time for this to overwhelm kids is around puberty and the realization that their bodies are going to develop in ways that makes them terrified. These are the kids we see transition in jr. high and high school. At that age, they can be put on medication that prevents the changes of puberty then later, hormones to develop the secondary sex characteristics of their peers; breasts and curves and soft skin for trans girls and muscles and facial hair and deep voices for trans boys. Except in rare cases, no one can have or has genital reconstruction surgery until the age of 18. Most trans girls only want to date straight boys but like any girl, can also be gay or bi or what anyone else can be. Being transgender is nothing like being gay nor are transgender kids able to hide in the closet. Transgender is who you are - sexuality, gay or straight, is who you are attracted to. Here are some transgender teens:


Now, some are bound to see this and say things like it is a mental illness, that kids are too young to know, that parents are guilty of child abuse or that when they were kids, they wanted to be a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle or a tiger but they simply don't grasp the seriousness of this because they haven't had to deal with it personally or seen their children suffer painfully and withdraw from life. No one makes a child transgender nor can someone make them not. You can't beat or punish it out and you can't pray it away any more that someone could make you turn gay or trans.

So, if you were the parents of one of these kids, what are you going to do? How hard are you going to sit on them to keep them from being who they are and how successful do you think this would be in the long run? As the parent of one of these kids, you're going to want them to be treated exactly the same as any other kid. Not forced into the wrong bathroom or a special bathroom or excluded from activities or an education. Most of these kids blend in with the other kids and no one knows of their status. There are thousands of these kids in schools across the country.

Others are more open and feel less shame and embarrassment over their situation. Here is a video of a young transgender girl that transitioned after her sophomore year in high school now a few weeks away from her senior year. Obviously from a supporting, affluent family and attending an affirming school, this girl is pretty too making her transition and acceptance easier and smoother and somewhat more exceptional than it is for a lot of these kids. What you don't see is the years of personal and family struggle leading up to this point and If you watch the video, you're going to have a hard time thinking she needs to pee in the boys bathroom or at least I sure do. This is what the law in North Carolina forces these kids to do and why it makes my head explode.

If you are going to resist changes in the world around you and remain set in your ways and attitudes, at least take the time to understand the ideas and notions you reject before you dismiss them. Life is hard enough for these special kids and they face many things and challenges most can't even imagine. Making their lives more difficult and challenging is something we need to try not to do. If you have any genuine interest in this, check out the resource pages at Gender Spectrum, an organization helping parents and children.


I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have about this. It is something people need better understand. Feel free to message me if you prefer. Thanks!

a reply to: Freija

One of my daughters claimed to be "gay" during most of her teens and early 20's. Now that I have a third grandson, (the third coming from her) she identifies as bisexual. But during her life, we have had many discussions on this and what knowledge I have, came from life experience, and it's been a sheltered life other than that. Our good friends son came out as gay when he was in his late teens. He went from sounding and acting "normal" to acting gay with his speech and mannerisms. I am not sure that is something your body does naturally, it seems like it would be really hard to suppress that. But in all my living, (47 years) I have never encountered a transgender person. So I have no basis for learning other than what I hear. And the few crossdressers here (drag queen) seem to be of a different variety than this. (again, perhaps I don't grasp that either)


Gay or straight seems to have much more to do with sexual orientation, than general feelings.

Someone who feels like they are a woman trapped in a man's body is something that you can explain to me in words, but I'm pretty sure I won't be able to fully understand that. Even with all the education you and others have offered, I still can't help but think the environment had a part in those cases somehow. (nature vs. nurture)

Regardless of how I feel, I think making sure kids don't feel singled out and guilty for being different is paramount to having well adjusted kids that will turn into well adjusted adults. All this drama about bathrooms, to me, seems as if it's doing much, much more harm than good for these kids. Rather than chastise adults for not understanding, then forcing laws on them, which will cause animosity, it just seems like the group pushing for all this could find a way to educate and teach, for the sake of the kids. Unless this isn't about the kids at all, and it's a political thing. Even though I wasn't a fan of my daughters decisions, I and my wife always supported her, encouraged her, and tried to be positive about her choices.

a reply to: whigsplitta

Haha have you ever been to asheville?

a reply to: whigsplitta

I agree with your point and I agree with adults being able to use the bathroom they identify with.

However, I don't like parents making these kind of decisions for 5 year olds. There should never be surgical, nor pharma changes made to a child. It could be a phase. They could be gay, but misidentified as transgendered, exc.


Once the kid is late teens and has a fairly adult mentality, awsome. But before that I can't help but wonder how much influence the parents have.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
I hear ya buddy!
I live in indiana and we still can't buy alcohol on Sundays...

That's a horrible example, how can anyone in their right mind support that!?!?!

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
However, I don't like parents making these kind of decisions for 5 year olds. There should never be surgical, nor pharma changes made to a child. It could be a phase. They could be gay, but misidentified as transgendered, exc.

Once the kid is late teens and has a fairly adult mentality, awsome. But before that I can't help but wonder how much influence the parents have.

Let me see if I can address some of your concerns? Something like this is not really a decision parents make for their children. Most parents are completely horrified and have spent years trying to get their son or daughter to be "normal". When these young kids become so completely non-functional, rebellious, depressed, refuse to go to school or when there are fears of suicide or self-mutilation, parents have little choice. Parents often say things like they'd prefer to have a happy daughter than a dead son. The rate of suicide attempts for transgender children with unsupporting parents and families is 77%. Parents that love, support and affirm their child in their gender make that suicide rate drop to 4%.

Clinicians look for certain signs in a child that might be transgender. In kids that are persistent, consistent and insistent in their cross gender identification over time (years) are not going through a phase and these are the young kids for whom transitions greatly improves their quality of life and happiness. Many children do go through a phase of exploring gender non-conforming atypical behavior but these kids aren't transgender. The kids that are trans are seen and evaluated by multiple health care professionals. Although doctors specializing in this field say they just don't see it in these kids, some children may "desist" and as you mention, just grow up to usually be gay. Being gay and being transgender are not the same thing though. The real risk though is doing nothing or ignoring the issue.

In pre-pubescent children, transitioning to live as the "opposite" gender involves nothing more than a change of name, pronouns, clothing and hair style along with counseling for both the child and the parents. Many times, if a young child is already in school, parents will move to a new district where their child is only known in their new gender.

At puberty, drugs can be given to stop the physical changes that would occur. Imagine the pain it would cause your daughter to sprout facial hair or have her voice deepen. These puberty blockers can be given for a year or two and are completely reversible. If withdrawn, natal puberty would begin normally which gives kids an extra bit of breathing room and more time to mature emotionally. Even if older teens (14-16) begin cross sex hormones, those effects are largely reversible although much more difficult. Eighteen is generally the youngest a person could undergo sex reassignment surgery. Kids that follow this path growing up go on to live healthy and productive lives blended into society as just "normal" men and women and are very rarely public or seen in the media.

So what role do parents play in this? Very little. It doesn't come from them, it comes from the children and this is something you can't beat out of a kid or punish away or pray away and is often extremely difficult and challenging for everyone involved. It can tear families apart and ruin lives. Being transgender is not something anyone wants and is not a choice. Who would choose such a difficult path in life?

Network dude, I still intend to reply to your post too. I've been kind of busy.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
However, I don't like parents making these kind of decisions for 5 year olds. There should never be surgical, nor pharma changes made to a child. It could be a phase. They could be gay, but misidentified as transgendered, exc.

Once the kid is late teens and has a fairly adult mentality, awsome. But before that I can't help but wonder how much influence the parents have.

Let me see if I can address some of your concerns? Something like this is not really a decision parents make for their children. Most parents are completely horrified and have spent years trying to get their son or daughter to be "normal". When these young kids become so completely non-functional, rebellious, depressed, refuse to go to school or when there are fears of suicide or self-mutilation, parents have little choice. Parents often say things like they'd prefer to have a happy daughter than a dead son. The rate of suicide attempts for transgender children with unsupporting parents and families is 77%. Parents that love, support and affirm their child in their gender make that suicide rate drop to 4%.

Clinicians look for certain signs in a child that might be transgender. In kids that are persistent, consistent and insistent in their cross gender identification over time (years) are not going through a phase and these are the young kids for whom transitions greatly improves their quality of life and happiness. Many children do go through a phase of exploring gender non-conforming atypical behavior but these kids aren't transgender. The kids that are trans are seen and evaluated by multiple health care professionals. Although doctors specializing in this field say they just don't see it in these kids, some children may "desist" and as you mention, just grow up to usually be gay. Being gay and being transgender are not the same thing though. The real risk though is doing nothing or ignoring the issue.

In pre-pubescent children, transitioning to live as the "opposite" gender involves nothing more than a change of name, pronouns, clothing and hair style along with counseling for both the child and the parents. Many times, if a young child is already in school, parents will move to a new district where their child is only known in their new gender.

At puberty, drugs can be given to stop the physical changes that would occur. Imagine the pain it would cause your daughter to sprout facial hair or have her voice deepen. These puberty blockers can be given for a year or two and are completely reversible. If withdrawn, natal puberty would begin normally which gives kids an extra bit of breathing room and more time to mature emotionally. Even if older teens (14-16) begin cross sex hormones, those effects are largely reversible although much more difficult. Eighteen is generally the youngest a person could undergo sex reassignment surgery. Kids that follow this path growing up go on to live healthy and productive lives blended into society as just "normal" men and women and are very rarely public or seen in the media.

So what role do parents play in this? Very little. It doesn't come from them, it comes from the children and this is something you can't beat out of a kid or punish away or pray away and is often extremely difficult and challenging for everyone involved. It can tear families apart and ruin lives. Being transgender is not something anyone wants and is not a choice. Who would choose such a difficult path in life?

Network dude, I still intend to reply to your post too. I've been kind of busy.

The children featured in the video, I personally don't think are old enough to be making life long decisions for....


I'm a parent, and have a 12 year old daughter. She was pretty Tim boyish, but mostly a-sexual before reaching 9 or 10.
From my experience a kid under that age cannot possibly know either, their sexual orientation, nor the gender they will want to identify with for life.

It is horrifying to me for adults to be making, these life changing decisions for children. The thought of adults giving children hormone therapy at 11 or 13 is horrible..

If a person lives there life that way ALL the way to adulthood, then would like to begin treatments at 18,l. Fine.

But "awe, but he has identified as a girl from age 3 to 6" or " from 9 to 12." Should not be even remotely enough to make physical changes to a minor.


Unless we can actually diagnos that someone is truly born wired that way, then they can wait till adulthood to make physical and hormonal changes...

a reply to: Freija

You can say this stuff comes from the children, but it takes adults to buy clothes, toys and start the kind of Dr. Visits and paperwork that making those kinda changes takes.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

You are thinking in terms of gender being the same thing as sexual orientation. It is not.

Think back to when you were a child. At what age were you sure you were a boy? Probably back as far as you can remember because as we develop in childhood, a person's sense of their own gender forms between 2 and 4 and is very resistant to change after that. I'll bet you knew your gender years and years before you became aware of your sexuality. If your folks had dressed you in a sparkly princess gown at six would you have been mortified?

Gender is at the very core of personality and who all of us are as people. Sexuality is secondary to that.

Parents of transgender children struggle with the very things you have mentioned. When they see their children seriously suffer in great pain over just who they are or fear they will self harm, these parents have to closely examine their own feelings about this and these decisions are very difficult and not made easily. Parents that care more about their children than themselves do what is best for their children.

The thoughts of giving cross-sex hormones to a 13 or 14 year old seems horrifying to you but if you are one of these kids, having your body go through changes that will forever make your life more difficult and have nothing to do with who you are as a person is even more horrific to them. Parents don't force this. Kids beg for it.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Freija

You can say this stuff comes from the children, but it takes adults to buy clothes, toys and start the kind of Dr. Visits and paperwork that making those kinda changes.

And if your kid had a disease or deformity, you would do the same thing. This doesn't go away. It is a lifelong thing and ignoring or denying it runs a far greater risk to the child than trying something that makes a huge difference in the happiness and quality of life for a child.

Nobody makes a kid transgender. Nobody can make a kid not transgender by refusing to acknowledge them. This is something fundamental to a person's life, who they are and vital to their existence.

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: JoshuaCox

You are thinking in terms of gender being the same thing as sexual orientation. It is not.

Think back to when you were a child. At what age were you sure you were a boy? Probably back as far as you can remember because as we develop in childhood, a person's sense of their own gender forms between 2 and 4 and is very resistant to change after that. I'll bet you knew your gender years and years before you became aware of your sexuality. If your folks had dressed you in a sparkly princess gown at six would you have been mortified?

Gender is at the very core of personality and who all of us are as people. Sexuality is secondary to that.

Parents of transgender children struggle with the very things you have mentioned. When they see their children seriously suffer in great pain over just who they are or fear they will self harm, these parents have to closely examine their own feelings about this and these decisions are very difficult and not made easily. Parents that care more about their children than themselves do what is best for their children.

The thoughts of giving cross-sex hormones to a 13 or 14 year old seems horrifying to you but if you are one of these kids, having your body go through changes that will forever make your life more difficult and have nothing to do with who you are as a person is even more horrific to them. Parents don't force this. Kids beg for it.

I'm really not talking about sexual orientation. I am talking about making medical changes to a child, with no more evidence than " he says he feels like a girl, and prefers barbies,dresses and girl talk."

One day hopfully we will advance enough to be able to do a brain scan and identify people born with "abnormal"(I really don't mean that as a negative) wiring. Which I personally don't doubt gays and transsexuals are born with.