Why Arjuna is a hero/victim of Krishna, who is just another war-mongering self-righteous pseudo-god

a reply to: namelesss

What a brilliant lack of understanding, pursuant to an utter lack of actual practice!

What "lack of understanding and practice" are you refering to? Your own?

So called spiritual practice is a means to an end, companiero. Not something to engage in just to have something to kill time with.

a reply to: Willingly

I already did say that about the truth - "the truth" about "non-duality".

Vedas can bring you towards first experiences of blissful silence and eventually to realize Brahman during deep meditation and more ... when teachings are absorbed and understood clearly without a doubt and wrong percepts.

Vedas in all their glory teach how to live spiritually and how to recognize Brahman.
They teach about the view and the practice of ultimate reality in my opinion.

Why are some words in "" is maybe a bit of an implication about how to explain the view.
A tease for your mind, if you will : )

But yeah, no book can bring you to the truth, no guru even, nothing external!
we must achieve this with hard practice!
And to much reading will only bring more confusion without any practice and real experiences during meditation.

be well my iconoclast friend : )
I have said what I wanted and I don't see the reason for continuing for now.
Believe and do what you want, it is of no importance to me, I just write what I feel is beneficial for you or other curious readers.

a reply to: UniFinity

I already did say that about the truth - "the truth" about "non-duality".

There is something beyond so called non-duality. That's what I'm refering to.

Vedas can bring you towards first experiences of blissful silence and eventually to realize Brahman during deep meditation and more ... when teachings are absorbed and understood clearly without a doubt and wrong percepts.

Vedas in all their glory teach how to live spiritually and how to recognize Brahman. They teach about the view and the practice of ultimate reality in my opinion.

I prefer the Upanishads, the end of the vedas: Advaita Vedanta. (Advaita= not two, Ved = Vedas, anta= end) The end of rituals and worshipping gods and deitys.


Be well too, my friend.

Shivo ham!

a reply to: Willingly

hey well, I have to respond to this : )

because you touched a very interesting point with this line for me:

There is something beyond so called non-duality. That's what I'm referring to.

Yes I have the same opinion. Vedas are great but they do not bring you past Brahman. Well in most cases that is...from what I have studied about many saints and their life and teaching from this religion there are some that include teachings, philosophy and how to practice to realize even what is beyond Brahman.

Well in both cases this are probably really got experiences and accomplishments, I think there is no doubt about that. But those few saints who have gone beyond in hinduism have attained the ultimate view and truth.

But, maybe there are teachings in some other religion which are concerned about that.

any thoughts about that or what exactly did you really mean with this statement anyway...I wonder?

: )

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: namelesss

What a brilliant lack of understanding, pursuant to an utter lack of actual practice!

What "lack of understanding and practice" are you refering to? Your own?

So called spiritual practice is a means to an end, companiero. Not something to engage in just to have something to kill time with.

My question was; are you a practicing Hindu, companero?
Been one for a few decades, that you can speak with experience/Knowledge?
That was the question, if you like.
Please, consider it rhetorical.

originally posted by: Willingly
There is something beyond so called non-duality.

No, there is not.
Shall I assume this is a 'belief' or a 'hypothesis' or, perhaps, something that you've read??
(You obviously do not speak from experience (knowledge).)

a reply to: UniFinity

Well in both cases this are probably really got experiences and accomplishments, I think there is no doubt about that. But those few saints who have gone beyond in hinduism have attained the ultimate view and truth.

But, maybe there are teachings in some other religion which are concerned about that.

any thoughts about that or what exactly did you really mean with this statement anyway...I wonder?

Pranaam Genosse,

what indeed had a great impact on me were two saintly sages and their works:

- Guru Nanak's poem: JapJi Sahib
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's work: All his talks, but especially I Am That and Prior to Consciousness.
- And the Upanishads, of course.

Aad all the very sophisticated musicians, especially Frank Zappa, Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, The Specials and The Clash, to name a few.

a reply to: namelesss

My question was; are you a practicing Hindu, companero?

What would that even mean, "practicing Hindu"? I'm born and raised in Germany. And yes, I'm blessed with a certain appreciation of indian culture. Not the cast-system, of course. But the food, the clothing, the music, the philosophie, the art, and the religious iconography.

Is that sufficiant enough for you?

a reply to: namelesss

No, there is not. Shall I assume this is a 'belief' or a 'hypothesis' or, perhaps, something that you've read?? (You obviously do not speak from experience (knowledge).)

Tra-la-lalla. What ever floats your boat.

I know what I know and what you think I don't know is your problem, not mine.

a reply to: Willingly

Pranaam Genosse,
(had to google this, about real meaning : ) )

- Guru Nanak's poem: JapJi Sahib
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's work: All his talks, but especially I Am That and Prior to Consciousness.
- And the Upanishads, of course.

I did not know of a poem till now and it is very good indeed, thank you!

Nice list and all great musicians.

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is great but I like his master a lot more and he is one of my favorite saints. he also wrote a few books, one is a book titled the master of self realization and in that book there are also a two or three references to other books, which are all very great and beneficial for spiritual seeker to read.

if you are curious, than this books should deepen your understanding...but I am not implying you don't have any. You have changed my opinion about that already : )

I think you will really like them if you like to read such books.

great answer!

a reply to: UniFinity

Pranaam Genosse, (had to google this, about real meaning : ) )

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you might know the terms. It means something like this: I put my hands together and bow to you, my friend in arms.

I did not know of a poem till now and it is very good indeed, thank you! Nice list and all great musicians.

Guru Nanak is definitly worth a read. His poem will stay with you, if you want to. For me it's THE poem.

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is great but I like his master a lot more and he is one of my favorite saints. he also wrote a few books, one is a book titled the master of self realization and in that book there are also a two or three references to other books, which are all very great and beneficial for spiritual seeker to read.

Yeah, man! Sri Siddharameshwara Maharaj rocks! I have a picture of him hanging in my living-room/temple/office.
And a picture of his guru also.

I got introduced to the Bhagavad-Gita via the Srila Phrabupada version, but I also had my own thoughts and likes or dislikes about it.

Actually Krishna is just one incarnation of Vishnu, and there are several for different ages who incarnate when spiritual principles become corrupted or are ignored (9, I think, of which the Buddha is also recognized as one reformer).

The world was already very corrupt and ruled by demoniacs who oppressed people very much when Krishna was born, and despite his miraculous powers, he fulfilled all his earthly duties with his comrades, from a cowherd boy to his military service.

To me it's very much a tale about the beginning of the Kali-Yuga (our current age of quarrel and hypocrisy) which began in earnest when Krishna left the earth.

It's a narrative showing one way back to Godhead in that turmoil.

There are also more sensual and child-like tales about Krishna, but this one gripped me as a very militarized young man at the time.
The camaraderie between Krishna and Arjuna was recognizable to myself.
The absolute passivity of some sects was starting to feel self-defeating and suicidal to me (often replaced with passive aggression), and nobody can tell me that allowing your relatives to be butchered when you could have done something is any less evil than just resistance.
Absolute passivity is the royal road to extinction, and an evil.

But the battlefield is just the context.
It would be difficult to draw the message that it's worthy to die or kill for just anything.
The narrative becomes far too complex and even at times "psychedelic" (Krishna's universal form, for example) for that.
Sure we are not the body, but we get karma for our actions, and bad karma if we harm for the wrong cause.

It's a bit of a thriller too, as Arjuna gradually discovers that his battle-buddy is actually the Lord, and he moves from becoming his comrade to becoming his devotee.
Like all of us, Arjuna fell into the material world due to materialistic desires, and now with karmic entanglement he faces the fear, worry and hell of battle.
Then he discovers the bro next to him is actually the Lord, and he becomes a devotee via the narrative, and whatever happens he will be liberated from the material world.
The lesser evil is to fight in this case (the only alternative is to surrender your relatives to a demoniac tyrant - something like ISIS today, I imagine).

Conceivably God could overthrow the laws of Karma completely, and liberate everything, and let every demoniac into the spiritual world.

But that would also destroy much spiritual bliss between God and his devotees.
Not every living thing is ready to be liberated from maya (illusion), and they still think they enjoy the material world.

Thus was Arjuna before the battle.
But during the battle he understood his position and became liberated.
That's the message that I got.

[As a footnote: from the principles of Bhakti Yoga it could also mean that one can live an earthly life, and one doesn't have to sit starving on some mountain until the plants grow around your body (as many ascetics did in India at the time). Just re-direct normal activities like eating, mating and defending as regulated devotional service. The Buddha, I think too, once almost perished after following outdated ascetics, because the Kali Yuga is no longer conductive to that mental focus or extreme forms of meditation for most people. As such it's also a radical break with previous forms of devotion, and one more practical to our age. To those drawn to devotion in this life, no matter to what degree, it's saying that God understands and offers far more direct ways to connecting with Godhead and eventual liberation. In fact, the Kali Yuga also has its advantages, to those who understand.]

a reply to: halfoldman

Thanks for your long post. Let me give you my take on it.

To me the Krishna character in the Bhagavad-Gita reminds me of Mark Twain's story The Mysterious Stranger. Here is a video cartoon:

The Mysterious Stranger - from the Adventures of Mark Twain - claymation cartoon:

www.youtube.com...

I got introduced to the Bhagavad-Gita via the Srila Phrabupada version, but I also had my own thoughts and likes or dislikes about it.

Yes, I know that translation. I had it too. The good thing about it was that it contained the original sanskrit text, the direct translation of it, a commentary and also nice pictures. BUT...as it is well known by now, Phrabupada, the leader of the (hare-krishna) iskon-movement, was not a too nice guy. His organisation is accused of child-abuse by many former members. And not just that takes away of lot of credibility from his commentary on the Bhagavad-Gita, IMHO.

Actually Krishna is just one incarnation of Vishnu, and there are several for different ages who incarnate when spiritual principles become corrupted or are ignored (9, I think, of which the Buddha is also recognized as one reformer).

I don't think the Buddha was a Vishnu incarnation. I think he was a Shiva incarnation because he was an iconoclast.

The world was already very corrupt and ruled by demoniacs who oppressed people very much when Krishna was born, and despite his miraculous powers, he fulfilled all his earthly duties with his comrades, from a cowherd boy to his military service.

In my POV, a divine (Vishnu) incarnation does not have any dutys at all. But that does not mean that certain aims, goals and tasks are not performed by such incarnation. It just means: They are not a duty. They are a gift that is given to humanity and other mammals out of compassion and not out of some sort of duty.

To me it's very much a tale about the beginning of the Kali-Yuga (our current age of quarrel and hypocrisy) which began in earnest when Krishna left the earth.

Yes indeed, it is a tale.

It's a narrative showing one way back to Godhead in that turmoil.

Yes, there are a lot of good points and teachings in the Bhagavad-Gita together with utter crap regarding the so called spiritual life and the "dutys" of those who are incarnated. I think Arjuna was a Vishnu incarnation and Krishna was a Rahu form. A deceiver. Someone who twisted the true real meaning of what it is all about to be alive.

(to be continued...maybe...)

a reply to: Willingly

Thanks for your your complex views.

The way I was taught the Buddha is one of the 9 incarnations of Vishnu, who descended to re-establish non-violence, especially when widespread animal sacrifice became common. The 10th incarnation (Lord Kalki) is yet to appear.
en.wikipedia.org...

As far as ISKCON goes, yes at a stage it became very corrupt, particularly after the death of Srila Prabhupada.
He was much too trusting and initiated every Tom, Dick and Harry.
He was a great scholar, but not always a good judge of character.
Some believe he was himself murdered by corrupt devotees.
There are many conspiracy topics about that, like in all religions.
I don't think Srila Prabhupada was personally responsible for what happened in the ISKCON boarding schools after his death from 1977 to the mid-1980's.
Many people left ISKCON to practice Bhakti Yoga in private, or under other gurus, while others tried to reform the organization.
Nevertheless, Prabhupada is still much renowned as a spiritual teacher both within, and outside ISKCON, but you don't have to be a member, or even a congregational member to appreciate his books or lectures.
They don't own Krishna or Bhakti Yoga.
Similarly, you don't have to be a Catholic, a Lutheran or royalist devotee of King James to read the Bible.

Your other views are very interesting, but I can't really comment to say they are right or wrong.
I can only speak for my own experience and what the Bhagavad-Gita meant to me personally.
If you feel it's a tale or allegorical myth, that's fine with me.

a reply to: Willingly

I relate the war to an internal struggle, similar to what we find in the Greek Myth of the Labyrinth.

Arjuna is struggling with his own mind. He is week and alone, he is being drawn into the confusion of fear and doubt. The minotaur represents his fear. In the beginning of the narrative he is being devoured by it.

In the end he realizes he was never alone and his Lord was always by his side. He was blinded by his own fear, until he was reminded of who he was.

A child of God has no reason to fear the minotaur. We are the one's who overcome the world.

The moral to the Bhagavad Gita, Faith is the only path out of the Labyrinth.

I think you are taking the narrative far too litteraly. Life is a spiritual war, especially for those who don'tunderstand that which is within.

Add - The Upanishads explain the qualities of the Lord found by Arjuna. They are complimentary texts IMO.

Many enlightened shun violence and scream duality. Duality exists, and sometimes defending yourself is Godly. Mohammed was right about the Spirit of Jihad. I think it's time the enlightened wake up to the Spirit of Jihad and finish Armageddon.

What I find irritating is how, even supposedly devout Hindus claim that much of the stories are just written with poetic licence on the grounds that someone cannot fire 25,000 arrows in a few few seconds as is regularly scheduled in the various books...

...Well, hello? What sort of a God is it who cannot do what an Australian can do.

In the early 1990's, an Australian was able to fire 250,000 arrow bolts in just 40 seconds.

How?

Because he did not use a bow, he used a railgun.

If someone is a God, just because they lived in ancient times, just why should they be restricted on the technology of the time if they are a God?

I see no reason why the Gods of the ANcient Hindu scriptures were not utilising technology such as railguns.

a reply to: MenWIthHugeApplause

So no other discourses use metaphors?