The logical curse in Islam. Why muslim cannot change their religion without becoming apostate

a reply to: AudioOne

But if you study words and meaning and how it is impossible to read anything without an act of subjective interpretation. For instance, all translations of the Qu'ran take liberties.

So you're saying interpretations aren't the real thing?
Certainly, they're not.
Yet you said there is not one perceived thing, which there is.

a reply to: wisvol

One perceived thing? I don't know what you are talking about. Perceived by whom? Are you aware of all the different manifestations of Islam from Africa to Malaysia? I find that a beautiful thing, I would hate if the Saudi Wahhabi versions is the only one that existed. Do you think the scholars that uphold abrogation or the scholars who say nothing can be abrogated are the one perceived thing? Or what of the scholars who believe in abrogation but say it doesn't apply to verses on war or treaties because you can't abrogate a specific ruling in the Qu'ran? Are the Shia who believe that Ali was usurped as leader of the community the one percieved thing or are the Sunni? What of some of the other splinter groups that appeared at the time? Are the Mu'tazali part of the one perceived thing? How do you square Ibn Arabi and Seyyid Qutb as one perceived thing? What is the one perceived thing of the modernist project vs the salaffi? AFrican Islamic communities where women dress more liberally, are they the same perceived one thing as the religious police strolling Saudi Arabia punishing women who may show more than just their eyes? The great Caliphs of Baghdad who had religious scholars from all religions debate openly, where Christians worked side by side with Muslims translating great texts, are they the same "perceived" thing?

a reply to: wisvol

I never said that interpretations aren't the real thing. It's a higher level of nuance, perceptions of a real thing will ALWAYS be exactly that, perceived, hence always interpretations. It's impossible to perceive reality without interpretation. It doesn't mean something isn't real, it means you'll never perceive outside of yourself and your owns subjectivity. However, I also didn't say interpretations are the real thing either.

a reply to: AudioOne

But everyone, repeat after me.. THERE IS NO ONE ISLAM!!

And later in the same thread

One perceived thing? I don't know what you are talking about. Perceived by whom?

You seem confused: Islam as defined by its founder previously named, peace be upon him, is the thing being perceived.
By whom? Anyone who perceives it.
Can they distort it through perception, either sincerely or not?
Again, yes.
The perceived thing exists nonetheless: this is what I am dispelling.

There absolutely is one Islam.

What people think constitutes quantum mechanics or Darwinism and even baseball will also vary broadly, yet the original concept exists independently from later opinions of it, and whether accurate or not and to what degree does not change the fact that a layman's view of it isn't the perceived thing.

Am I being clearer to you?

a reply to: wisvol

Read my second response. No offense, but it is I that am not clear to you.

I could say there is one Islam as it actually occurred or is God given... But we live in the world of ordinary humans, and everyone's perception of it will be different. Muhammad once said "Every soul has its own religion." And in this world of people some scream louder that their interpretation is the one original eternal interpretation.. But that is all that they are, talking loudly. Someone may even be correct, and many can have visions to think they have it 100 percent correct, but to a certain degree it will always be an imperfect interpretation of what Islam may be in the eternal.

To me Ibn Arabi and Rumi are as close to finding the true meaning as anyone has gotten afterward. To others they are innovative opinion. What court on this earthly plane can I take this matter up with? I can and did take it up in my own spirituality and feel its been proved to me that they are correct or as enlightened as possible for a follower, yet it's just my opinion to the other people around me. There is no conclusive proof I can give someone, and the same conviction I may have someone else may have that God is telling them to do something horrible.

But really, everyone other than people like Rumi have vast amounts of interpretation, and even Rumi and Ibn Arabi had their experiences filtered through their own cultural space. Even if someone reaches closer to the truth than most men, there will always still be an act of interpretation where some fallacy has slipped in.

I am not dispelling that one real thing exists, I am dispelling that we can view it without interpretation before we die.

Edit: I have become a bit more agnostic in my thinking over the years and try to take the good of any religion, but am no longer so sure about the historical accuracy or intent of any of them.. I got tired of being an apologist, Certain issues, like wife beating and hate, shouldn't be a problem in any of them if enough of "the real" was getting through from prayer. Yet here we are..

double post

a reply to: AudioOne

I could say there is one Islam as it actually occurred or is God given... But we live in the world of ordinary humans, and everyone's perception of it will be different.

See, that's all I wanted to read, because I was under the impression that you wrote in this thread that

But everyone, repeat after me.. THERE IS NO ONE ISLAM!!

And I do of course agree that perceptions are different, and readily admit that, as I did in my first response to you.

a reply to: wisvol

I apologize if I was unclear and misunderstood you.

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Define wage war against Allah and his messengers? Is rejecting Islam and Muhammad waging war against them?

Waging war against Allah in my opinion is a losing proposition. His messengers, well.. Really carefully there because a lot of people claim to be his messengers. The liars are worth exposing.
Rejecting opinions is most definitely not waging war.

Are the "terrorists" Allah's messengers???

a reply to: wisvol

Pretty sure Sunni, Shia, and Sufis would disagree that there is only one Islam.

a reply to: Skywatcher2011

Are the "terrorists" Allah's messengers???

Short answer is no.

Specific answer is are you out of your damned mind? Why would a merciful God's messenger spread fear?
If anything, the peacemakers, the teachers of the one Islam as taught by the original Messenger, peace be upon him, are Allah's indirect messengers.

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: Skywatcher2011

Are the "terrorists" Allah's messengers???

Short answer is no.

Specific answer is are you out of your damned mind? Why would a merciful God's messenger spread fear?
If anything, the peacemakers, the teachers of the one Islam as taught by the original Messenger, peace be upon him, are Allah's indirect messengers.

So why do these messengers shout "Allahu Akbar" every time they blow something up or kill someone?