Exclusive: Most Americans support torture against terror suspects - poll

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

This pisses me off to no end.

I've spent years online encountering people who feel its ok to torture people because they are not American, and therefore not afforded the same rights as an American. These same people will then pop into a gun thread and point fervently to the constitution, claiming that the right is inalienable and imbued by our creator.

How do you reconcile that?

Inalienable is inalienable. Period. Bottom line. Anyone that thinks that not being American means you have no claim to the rights that American's have is absolutely, 100% ignorant of how America's Constitution is actually supposed to work.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I know Tex. Jesus wept

Everything you just said? Meaningless to most - apparently. According to Reuters? Two thirds support torture. What they can't see - they can't feel. The basic attitude is - we have problems - just fix them. We don't care how

What else will people support?

The OP sees this as some kind of bizarre vindication - W is still a good man - you know, relatively. And, there is plenty of blame to go around - no argument there

Forgetting about the constitution for a minute - what bothers me the most sometimes is human nature. Bare bones. How can people not understand this? In a country that supports torture - how far away are we from people disappeared in the night and a government that looks more like Assad's than what the founding fathers imagined

Human rights out the window. There goes Western civilization - real or imagined

To all of you advocating torture just remember that the 'crazy conspiracy theorists' are terrorists in the eyes of some in senior govt, so presumably you would be happy for them to torture you??????

Civilized countries don't torture people IMO. There are so many problems with it.

Against Geneva conventions.

What if innocent people get tortured.

Doesn't lead to good intel generally.

Against the constitution of a lot of western countries.

Just because your enemy does something brutal and barbaric, such as ISIS, does that mean everyone should do it too. I don't think so. If you do as your enemy does then you are no better...

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Stop electing idiots who send me and mine out there to DO THAT.
I 'd mutilate the S##T out of someone if it would save lives in my unit.
Jail time?
Who cares?

a reply to: johnb

I 've been EXPERIMENTED on, and married twice,a little pain wouldn't work as it would only aggrivate me.
Water boarding would kill me as THAT was a side effect of WHAT ever we got hit with in my war.
AND we STILL train American forces using that.
If YOU don't think the enemies of the US use torture ,you are as funny as any comedy.
I once saw the movie "Unthinkable",THAT was hilarious.
SOME people are surely lost when they see how things REALLY operate.
The deployed forces operate like a machine when working best,emotions are suicide.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

If the government didn't have a history of experimenting on our soldiers, i'd almost agree with you.

But it almost sounds like the folks you work for are both of our enemies. If they aren't, they sure aren't very good friends.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

OH they very much are..in fact every morsel of food ,water and air are corrupted as a result.
We should have opted out of petroleum products in the 50s instead of turning them loose into our food.
It isn't right and it should never be an accepted institutionalized idea,but I KNOW we are being lied to so I'll tell you about it.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

His opinion, which I disagree with, is just as valid as yours.

If we are the good guys, and I choose to believe that we are, then the rules is the rules.

ICRC Definitions/Laws concerning torture.

By any definition, waterboarding is cruel and unusual. Therefore illegal by international statute.

Sleep deprivation, etc...? The area is a bit grayer, IMHO.

Having said all this, how does one go about acquiring immediately needed information without utilizing coercion? Talk about a gray area.

a reply to: seagull

I'm not sure how to reply to this. He's entitled to his opinion. Of course

His opinion doesn't matter because people (not just Americans) are entitled to due process - and torture has been decalared (almost universally) a crime against humanity

Q: Do non-citizens in the U.S. have the same right not to be tortured as U.S. citizens?

Yes. Neither international nor domestic law conditions the right not to be subjected to torture on citizenship or nationality. No detainee held by U.S. authorities—regardless of nationality, regardless of whether held in the U.S. or in another country, and regardless of whether the person is deemed a combatant or civilian—may be tortured. All applicable international law applies to U.S. officials operating abroad, including the Convention against Torture and the Geneva Conventions. The prohibition against torture is universal and covers all countries both regarding U.S. citizens and persons of other nationalities.

Under U.S. Law Torture is Always Illegal

What does torture have in common with genocide, slavery, and wars of aggression? They are all jus cogens. Jus cogens is Latin for “higher law” or “compelling law.” Thismeans that no country can ever pass a law that allows torture. There can be no immunityfrom criminal liability for violation of a jus cogens prohibition.

The United States has always prohibited the use of torture in our Constitution, laws executive statements and judicial decisions. We have ratified three treaties that all outlaw torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. When the United States ratifies a treaty, it becomes part of the Supreme Law of the Land under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution.

Torture cannot be justified under any circumstances. The UN has condemned torture as a denial of the purposes of its Charter and as a violation of the human rights and fundamental freedoms proclaimed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Torture is also prohibited by most domestic legal systems in the world. Even where there is no specific crime of torture in domestic law, there are usually other laws under which the perpetrators can be held to account. Nevertheless, acts of torture and ill-treatment remain widespread across the world.

Emphasis is mine - to show that, of course, even when most civilized people agree - what are we to do about the reality of torture?

Valid is an interesting choice of words. If it's just as valid - why do you disagree with it? I say his opinion doesn't matter officially. But as he and I have already shown - what people say they want, and what happens in real life are two different things

Having said all this, how does one go about acquiring immediately needed information without utilizing coercion? Talk about a gray area.

It's only a grey area if you also think it's only kind of and conditionally wrong, and not completely wrong. If it's completely wrong there's no way to defend it

You have no way of knowing if the person you're torturing can give you what you want - it's been proven pretty much that it's not effective. The bigger question is - is it something somebody deserves?

If you can answer that question - then maybe you can make an argument for torture. I can't

Can it ever be right - even if you can determine that a person deserves it? Is it punishment then - or is it a tool?

Never mind Seagull - I honestly don't have the stomach for this sh!t. I thought we were something better - apparently I was wrong

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I can have and WILL..usdefensewatch.com...

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I can have and WILL..usdefensewatch.com...

You do realize that historically women are much fiercer fighters? They don't have the same physical prowess but they have a far higher pain tolerance and a much easier time mentally to actually harm an enemy. Lots of forces from around the world have been looked at here and women can f*ck sh*t up just as much as men can.

The only real issue with putting women in combat is that you really screw things up when you put men and women in combat alongside each other. Both fighting in their own units is fine, integrated units leads to bad things.

I support torture against Tucker Carlson

a reply to: Aazadan

If they are put to an individual scurmish you may be correct.
I don't need JUST infantryit's about the team mission ONLY.
I need someone to carry a 51 lb. pack ,their own weapon, ammo and the radio.
I need someone who can extract me from a burning track or out from under fire.
In my prime I weighed 195 after basic.
Endurance and strength like that are upper body AKA no females.