When Have You, Personally, Ever Been Persecuted or Oppressed by a Christian?

originally posted by: NthOther
a reply to: AshOnMyTomatoes

What Christian are you talking about, who thinks it's ok to pillage the world?

That would be the Straw Christian, methinks.

From the wikipedia article on "Anthropocentricism":

In the 1985 CBC series "A Planet For the Taking", Dr. David Suzuki explored the Old Testament roots of anthropocentrism and how it shaped our view of non-human animals. Some Christian proponents of anthropocentrism base their belief on the Bible, such as the verse 1:26 in the Book of Genesis: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. The use of the word "dominion" in the Genesis is controversial. Many Biblical scholars, especially Roman Catholic and other non-Protestant Christians, consider this to be a flawed translation of a word meaning "stewardship", which would indicate that mankind should take care of the earth and its various forms of life, but is not inherently better than any other form of life.

a reply to: NthOther

well, the person who was spoken of with the
"well if her husband doesn't want her to be in church, she shouldn't be in church" was me!! by that time I had gone through the bible, reading it from cover at least three times, and had come to the conclusion that hey, salvation isn't really extended to women, unless of course the husband desires it to be, so well, it was no big deal at that point to make the person happy and not return.... after all a religion that believes that the only women who belong in church are those women who's husbands don't mind them being there, who seems to demand obedience of women in all things (regardless of weather she views what is being requestion as being morally right or wrong), just doesn't seem to offer much to women.

when sarah and abraham went into egypt, the pharoah saw sarah and how pretty she was. abraham became afraid that the pharoah would kill him and take sarah for himself so he told sarah to tell the pharoah that she was his sister and leave out the part about her being his wife.. she obey him, and well, the pharoah took her for himself, and well, according to the bible, God intervened and tipped the pharoah off about the deception.
so, you tell me, do you consider leaving out that major point of her being his wife a lie and therefore a tad bit sinful? wasn't she kind of put in a damned if she did, damned if she didn't position?
I can point out story after story of the most esteemed women of the bible, being obedient to their husbands, but well, the morality of what they did was kind of questionable.

a reply to: NthOther

Why does it have to be many? You didn't qualify your post with 'many'.

Even without the personal, there have been examples of groups who have been persecuted, refused service, demonized, and told they could not believe in Jesus because of who they are.

As a former christian for 40+ years, I think I can say this.

It is difficult to humble yourself and admit a christian or group of Christians have been so ardent in their belief that they have persecuted people verbally and in taking a life. As I recall most of the KKK were Christians.

I understand that you likely don't believe this is christian behavior. But to humble yourself and admit and error is also a christian thing to do, not to mention just plain ole good for the soul.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes

So you don't like anthropocentrists. Neither do I. Do you know any? I don't.

The use of the word "dominion" in the Genesis is controversial. Many Biblical scholars, especially Roman Catholic and other non-Protestant Christians, consider this to be a flawed translation of a word meaning "stewardship", which would indicate that mankind should take care of the earth and its various forms of life, but is not inherently better than any other form of life.

I guess this part didn't sink in for ya...

Personally i dont care what religion people are, thats their RIGHT to believe what ever they want, Grey aliens ,reptilians .jesus ,Buddah,whatever , etc as long as they respect me and my rights ,BUT it pisses me off when they use guilt trips ,like i had happen to me when a couple of [not all ] but one in particular JWS [so called]Pioneer ,really got on top of me when i was 21 years old, i was young and naive and grew up on a farm and not used to dealing with ruthless city people , i wasnt any good at school, my siblings all went to University ,and i was the ONE who my demanding parents were basically stating ''What are we going to do with him '' ???? hes making us look bad'' , i got a crap job, and then was lucky to later get a good secure Government job ,which pleased my parents no end ,that was short lived once this Pioneer got hold of me after i had a Bible Study with him , [earlier with another witness,who was decent]this one was BENT on turning me into a Pioneer [full time door to door preacher] whether i liked it or not ,guilt trips ,sulking if i didnt do what he wanted ,i had to sell my new vehicle ,give up my job ,hobbies interests etc for the Kingdom, nothing else was acceptable, in the end i got such a guilt complex about it i sold my vehicle ,left my job , and gave up everything i enjoyed even though it was not Biblically wrong ,then i was so angry about it and depressed, i started drinking and blew all the pay out money from my job which was gone in no time ,i found another very poor paying job but left as the fumes and chemicals were affecting my health ,then found another job which was like going from heaven to hell from the Government job i had ,i could not believe people did this job ,but now i was hooked on alcohol which then cursed me for the next 20 years, several



bad relationships took all my money,it just became a bloody nightmare of depression ,alcoholism, i could not escape and would not wish upon anyone now im 52 and basically dont hvae anything but have debt and not the happy marriage i wanted all i can say to others is be careful and dont let other selfish self serving people wreck your mlife like mine have been and dont let people push you into anything you dont want or dont feel comfortable with once your life is gone there is no turning back or rewinds

a reply to: AshOnMyTomatoes

Typical cherry-picked out of context examples.

Merriam-Webster - misogyny - a hatred of women.

"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;" — Peter 3:1

Likewise to what and for what purpose in what context?

let's turn the page backward a little and see...

1 Peter 2

Basically, it goes back to humility, long-suffering, and exemplifying other fruits of the Holy Spirit. It basically says to submit to their husbands in a manner consistent with the way Jesus submitted himself to the Father God. Also, in 1 Peter 2 we see a calling for all people to submit to all their authorities even through abuse (obviously as long as your submission to worldly authorities is not in direct contrast to the will of God). Endure. Women are expected to endure no more than men. Also...

1 Peter 3

If you read past what you quoted you'll note that husbands are instructed to understand their role in spiritually leading their wives because they are a weaker spiritual vessel. However, before that, it basically tells wives to submit, endure, and remain faithful to God, and in doing so they'll influence others (typical focus being husbands). Also in 1 Peter 3, a Christian husband is also is instructed to "show them honor as coheirs of the grace of life." Thereby creating a wonderful cycle of husbands and wives supporting each other in their walks with Jesus. Of course, if they are both living as followers, then neither of them are degraded or portrayed as any less precious and valuable as the other.

The broader context tells a much different tale than what you claimed.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing (sic), let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." — 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

A study of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

That'll explain it much better than I can.

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man." — 1 Corinthians 11:7

bible.org

Also better than I can explain.

In summation, there is no misogyny there. It's simply untrue. Here are more lines of scripture to show you how women/wives are cherished and viewed as equally valuable to men/husbands.

Proverbs 5:18-19 New International Version (NIV)

18 May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. 19 A loving doe, a graceful deer— may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love.

* Notice the language... It suggests a deep regard, a romance, not some chauvinistic objectification of the wife.

Ephesians 5:22-33Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) Wives and Husbands

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, 23 for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives are to submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her with the washing of water by the word. 27 He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and blameless. 28 In the same way, husbands are to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own flesh but provides and cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 since we are members of His body.

* In fact, this is more characteristic of philogyny, or fondness, love, or admiration towards women.

Colossians 3:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.

* Basically, this is straight up telling husbands not to be misogynists. It really couldn't be any clearer.

a reply to: Witness2008

My mother did all of the above.

My mother also did almost all of above. She believed that hardship would bring me back to Jesus, so she saw to it that God punished me, every way she could think of, casting dispersion on my character by personally interfering in my personal relationships, my jobs and employers, my landlords, insisting that I was demon possessed, emotionally imbalanced, morally depraved and capable of all kinds of vile things like murder, only because I rejected Christian doctrine, not for any behavior problems or anything that I actually did.

She tried to take my daughter from me, when she was little, and when she couldn't she tried to poison her against me.

My now grown daughter and I were kicked out of my father hospital room, when he was in a coma and dying, because my mother was certain we brought Satan with us, and his demon interference might just send my dad to hell, in his vulnerable state of unconsciousness.

When my mother was rushed to hospital from her assisted living facility, I was at work. I got a call and rushed to the ER where I was informed that there nothing they could do, as she had a DNR. She had only hours to live. When I called my sister to tell her the bad news, my Christian sister immediately accused me of murdering my mother, because, you know, I'm an evil demon possessed atheist that has the power to murder people from afar with my disbelief! She demanded an autopsy from the ER attending physician, over the phone! Of course, nothing came out of it.

originally posted by: NthOther
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Were you, personally, raped by a Catholic priest?

Not a Catholic Priest, a Protestant deacon. I was also violated and imprisoned, by a Baptist preacher, physically punished and locked in a hot bus for 5 hours in Palm Springs because I wore a 2 piece swim suit to a pool party.

My sister was forced to have an abortion, or be excommunicated by the church and be denied entry into the Christian college she was to attend. They tried to force an abortion on me too, because they didn't approve of my husband, a non-Christian, and I was excommunicated from our church for failing to do so.

a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

okay, god tells the women (in the new testament, not really much in the old) to love their wives as themselves. what does it tell those women who's husbands aren't doing this?? isn't it basically the same, obey them? can I ask you something? can you think of any instance where acting in love would require something different from being obedient? because I can!!!

a reply to: NthOther

When Have You, Personally, Ever Been Persecuted or Oppressed by a Christian?

Never.

So what is your point? Are you proposing that it doesn't happen? Bollocks. It happens regularly whenever and wherever Christians are given power over others.

It is human nature to exercise power over others for the sheer pleasure of it, and while other motives -- correction, punishment, 'Christian duty', etc -- may be claimed, the truth is that Christians, just like anyone else, will oppress and persecute others if they think they can get away with it.

If we don't see more of it nowadays than we do, that is because Christianity is now rather toothless. It no longer has sufficient connexion with secular power in the countries where it is the faith or culture of the majority. That is because people in these countries have become rather irreligious and distrustful of religion.

It was centuries of experience with Christianity, by the way, which made them like that. Christianity was so oppressive and vicious it actually turned its own believers off religion.

However, in the Catholic world, where the Church stii retains some of its power, the persecution continues.

Today the victims are usually disempowered women and children, orphans and the like, because even the Catholic Church isn't powerful enough to persecute able-bodied men any more.

We all know these facts. Our individual experiences at the hands of Christians are of no moment.

So if you intended this thread as a whitewash over the numberless cruelties and crimes committed bt Christiana in the name of Christ, you have failed abjectly.

But don't feel too bad. The task you attempted was an impossible one. The record of Christian oppression and persecution of others is indelible.

a reply to: NthOther

Being a Christian myself I have had other Christians show me they don't really have the heart of Christ within themselves. For example, if I give testimony that Christ has spoken to me, they didn't believe me just as if they were atheist and not Christians after all. Even family members and a church pastor have shown me they don't really believe with all their heart or minds that it is really real, and that Christ can and does interact with his people for real.

But as far as your OP questions go, I haven't really been subjected to those, just on a much lesser scale I have. When people do all the right things throughout life, and who are faithful in what they do, but don't experience things like seeing supernatural things, they naturally find it hard to believe, even if they are "supposed" to believe it.

People say they are Christians often, but being Christian comes down to actions, and never words.

What you are saying I agree with though, and can't recall any Christians in my life who have done the examples you mention, to me, and haven't seen them do any of those to others either.

If a person must be judged, then it should, and IS usually based on their actions.

Look at how our president claims to be Christian, and yet he oppresses many, and attempts to stifle freedoms in many ways, so he is really NOT a Christian.

Based on actions defining things, it is actually impossible for a Christian to do those things in the OP often, for if they do, then they cannot be a Christian.

a reply to: Astyanax

I'm not saying it doesn't happen (or didn't happen). I'm just curious as to where all this "throat shoving" talk is coming from. Why do people think there's a Christian conspiracy to control their lives when they haven't experienced anything of the sort?

Who's it happening to? Where are they?

Not on ATS, apparently (or very few, at that).

a reply to: dawnstar



Maybe re-read the post.

a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

read it several times, just don't see an answer to that question, sorry...
read the bible quite a few times, cover to cover, listened to sermons from three different denominations....
still don't know the answer, unless of course, it that she is still supposed to obey, in all things, including if that husband demands her hard earned money that she needs to pay the rent so he can continue killing his liver by going to the bar and drinking himself stupid all night.
to be honest it seems that God has offered satan a two for one special or something.
and well, I don't know anything more oppressive than separating women from her creator and insisting that she treat her husband as god... man freed himself from the kings, he freed the slaves from their masters, and well, as long as they are male, they have the right to determine their own destiny, to follow their own moral conscious.... but they just couldn't bring themselves to free women from their master... thus the ERA will probably never be passed, even when it's so evident that their hesitation has produced more chaos and quite frankly is playing a big role in driving them into slavery...
but well, what do I know, right?

a reply to: NthOther

Attaching money to life sustaining needs that have to do with our life like housing, food, water, health and dental care, education, clothing and utilities while at the same time ostracizing from gainful employment which provides that money, is a sly form of extortion due to the money exchange is to be made available to all free people and printed for that reason, making a person being cut off from money also meant for them, a very sly way of forcefully taking away their money.

Matthew 6:25

Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?

And the answer to that is yes, people need good housing and good education and good jobs which these make our bodies whole. Human life needs more than soup kitchens and donated clothes which is the typical standard applied to the poor in the states. Just food and clothes, which doesn't complete the human body, makes the poor worry because they know their body isn't completed with out good private housing, good education and skills amd good employment and those who are not poor know this to be true and is why they utilize all these things for themselves and not just make sure they just only eat in soup kitchens and wear clothes, because they know that is a totally substandard way to live which degrades the body and their life, yet that's all they think others need. Making the ways to obtain the other things needed to make the body whole impossible or extremely difficult is force. Forced into a position to not get what their body needs to live and be whole.

The middle classes and wealthy treat the poor of their same faith who live in the same community terrribly by ostacizing them from gainful employment by saying they are not qualified and that they don't have the money, time, interest and patience to qualify them themselves. They also say there's no room for you, put another way, they are not hiring. They also do this with children's education by providing the best teachers, the best knowledge and the best facilities only to those who's parent/s can pay the high cost of it. The minor not being a Christian is not usually a requirement, the ability to pay the high cost is. All this attached to money forces people who are prevented from obtaining it, from having well rounded quality lives.

The branding of those who have comitted crimes or accused of committing crimes who were found guilty but are really innocent , man made or God made, with making their crimes public for the rest of their lives, even after serving prison or jail time, paying fines and finishing community service and/or classes, preventing them from obtaining gainful employment or getting certified, or joining the military, is continual punishment. Which that is a blatant lack of forgiveness. Crucified on paperwork. Branded on paperwork. Making people pay fines who made mistakes and serve time in a cage with the promise of freedom if done in good behavior, then not ensuring their freedom with giving those organizations who are accessing the money needed for all to obtain life necessities, also known as employers, access to old information that puts the job applicant in an unfavourable light creating negative bias, with that informstion being called a criminal record, forces the job applicsnt into a position where they are unable to generate and access the money needed to secure housing and other life sustaining needs. That freedom promising to be available after punnishment is rendered is a lie if those who fullfilled the requirements of the punnishment are restricted from buying resources they need to survive. The restriction being money that they are excluded from accessing being ostracized from employers who are law abiding themselves who are not yet convinced the punnishment was enough and thus rendering their own punnishment upon the freed person, abandoning them to poverty or a life of crime if they are unwilling to settle down quietly in their poverty.

I find the term'' Christian '' annoying ,there was ONE Jesus Christ , we cant be like him, we cant be perfect ,he didnt have a wife or children ,or a job in this modern world ,we can do our best to do whats Right, and be ''Christ like '' but the notion of being a Christian and Perfect in every respect is ridiculous, and other ''Christians '' forcing their bigoted notions onto others ,just makes them give up ,you do your best under your Personal circumstances, and be Christ,'' like'' ,and be happy with that, ! and that you are ''TRYING'' ,to do your best ,how can God condemn you for that ? you do your best ,you cant do any more than that.

originally posted by: ozb1777

... ''Christians '' forcing their bigoted notions onto others ...

Like who? Who are Christians forcing to do/believe (or not do/believe) something? Which Christians are doing it? How are they forcing them?

Most importantly, have you experienced this coercion yourself?

I was ridiculed by a bible thumping christian because I wasn't baptized..With that said I think the Bible is a book full of fairy tales that is used to control weak minded people..

a reply to: NthOther

Freedom of expression violations have been committed against me by other Christians. Being one myself, I take pretty massive offence to any intolerance I receive from alleged followers of Jesus, who ought to know better.

I am permitted by law to enjoy whatever music I see fit, to dress as I choose, to be who I am. And yet, I have been called a satanist, been harassed verbally, and was made to leave my friends children's christening, an event I had been asked to attend by the mother of those children, who had instructed me to arrive in my most heavy metal regalia. I complied, but others in the congregation for that ceremony were aghast, because they were awful, judgemental, and not feeling very Christian on the day in question.

My family has also been looked down on, treated poorly by congregational religion in general, simply because we were poor. We have been discriminated against, because of our lack of money, because of our individuality, and most of all, because those who stood in high status positions within the congregations involved, had judged us to be unfit.

As a result, I worship outside the hierarchy, without the involvement of either clergy or indoctrinated congregations. The organisation is worth nothing to me. The faith is all there is for me.

I was denied the Eucharist in a Catholic Church when I am a confirmed Methodist. It was at a friend's funeral. That counts as persecution to me.

Also, I told a number of anti-Papal jokes in public on Facebook and then was accused of being mentally ill so was hospitalised for three weeks with all my freedoms stripped. The social worker who ordered the 'Section' afterwards admitted to being a devout Catholic and felt it was his duty to punish me.

a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

You're partially correct too. Confronting what you the OP's "hypocrisy" isn't necessarily the same game, but anything past that first post confronting him is playing his game in his thread. because...

I disagree.

Clearly you missed the nuances in his original post.

I did not. I have called him out on them more than once in this thread.

He didn't cry persecution against Christians in his OP. Just because you thought it doesn't make it so. (read the OP).

No he didn't. He didn't have to.

What was all that self-righteousness about not stooping?

No stooping necessary. I was a faithful Christian for decades. The derision I received from those I assaulted with my faith, was brought on myself.