In regard to free College

So regarding free college, what is it that other countries do/have that we don't in America? And im not talking about higher taxes and all that, what about the schools and education itself is different? As far as I know, in my limited experience is the college sports scene as well as all the services provided by American colleges. Now I have looked into this but that's what it seems since I don't hear about the EU college basketball or football league. So would it be safe to say that in order to bring college tuition down maybe we should separate the athletic institutions from the acedemic? Most American colleges need to charge students so much because they have to pay to upkeep the sports stadiums and practice fields and such. Now I know this would be incredibly difficult to do, since we Americans love watching each other rub into each other over a small ball or oval shaped like object, as well as all the money being made off of these students (who aren't allowed to accept any of this money) by corporations and institutions, but isn't there any way to separate these institutions even a little bit or use some of the billions being made more productively?

Sorry for big wall of text but I already posted this ov Facebook and didn't want to rewrite just to add a few points.

Mostly I'd like to ask our European friends about their colleges and schools in general. What is the quality of your education? Especially in those countries that offer free college. Do said colleges have huge sports institutions like in America? Do they have dorms included on campus or are students expected to have other living arrangements? What are the prefessors and school administrations like? A teacher/administrator for every little instance of everything or what?
Are there many students who just go to college to party or have a place to go after high school? I'm not trying to be frivolous, just genuinely curious.

I also mention student's motives because I feel as though SOME students in the U.S. would enter college for the above stated reasons, and have the attitude of it being an extension of high school. Something that they "have" to do to make it in this world and yet still not have the motivation to excel, which would cheapen the experience for everyone.

“Knowledge of any value can’t be given. It must be sought and earned." This quote is from The Complete Kane Chronicles by Ricky Riordan, from the third book in the series. It seems to apply here a bit, or at least I think so, so please, anyone and everyone, let me know what you think.

I very much appreciate your thoughts on this. And mods, if you feel this is in the wrong forum do your thing and Make it right! Thank you Friends

a reply to: KingKelson

I would also like to know if the European Degree equivalent requires the study of as many useless classes for credits needed for a degree at the level we have in the US? (The Teacher / Professor Employment Program).


The problem we have in the US is the cost due to Three major things:

1) Subsidies (ease of student loans) which promote the outragious boost in cost for classes.

2) The majority of useless degree programs we have in America (outside of Medical), those programs which cost 50K+ but the job you can get afterwards pays nothing. You will be in debt forever with a useless (nobody gives a crap) degree.

3)The number of credits / classes needed to "achieve" that piece of paper. C'mon, 60-70% of the classes you had to take to get the piece of paper are generally irrelevant to the profession you are going to college for. Time to streamline the degree programs. (Not going to happen, Useless classes employ teachers that can't do anything else with their useless degree except teach those useless classes to others and pays for their salaries and the School's profits.)


I find it revolting when people start talking about taxing us to PAY for "free college" since MOST of the degree programs are crap (yes I said it because this is the truth).

I have no problem paying for Doctors, Nurses, ect. programs in fields necessary and short with the student providing a set hours of community service as repayment after graduation, but wasting billions in taxpayer money on useless degree programs is a complete and utter waste. A huge waste.

I understand the faculties and school administrators would LOVE that. But really, what good is "free college" for a degree that is useless? Why pay for that crap?

Better question, why should I pay for useless classes for someone else. I have 4 kids of my own to support.

A majority of the major colleges in the U.S. the sports pay for the university. You have to think about the endorsements these major colleges have. I'm talking millions. Endorsements from companies like nike, adidas, underarmor etc etc etc on top of tv endorsements from the likes of fox, nbc, abc, espn, sec network, big10 network etc etc. The list goes on. Don't forget about boosters as well. I'm pretty sure money is a pretty mote idea in major colleges like alabama, Tennessee, michigan, state colleges. As far as free college, I don't think that it would work based off of who you have to pay, deans, teachers, other staff. Nobody works for free especially how hard it is in the first place to make a living wage, at least in the U.S.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: KingKelson

I would also like to know if the European Degree equivalent requires the study of as many useless classes for credits needed for a degree at the level we have in the US? (The Teacher / Professor Employment Program).


The problem we have in the US is the cost due to Three major things:

1) Subsidies (ease of student loans) which promote the outragious boost in cost for classes.

2) The majority of useless degree programs we have in America (outside of Medical), those programs which cost 50K+ but the job you can get afterwards pays nothing. You will be in debt forever with a useless (nobody gives a crap) degree.

3)The number of credits / classes needed to "achieve" that piece of paper. C'mon, 60-70% of the classes you had to take to get the piece of paper are generally irrelevant to the profession you are going to college for. Time to streamline the degree programs. (Not going to happen, Useless classes employ teachers that can't do anything else with their useless degree except teach those useless classes to others and pays for their salaries and the School's profits.)


I find it revolting when people start talking about taxing us to PAY for "free college" since MOST of the degree programs are crap (yes I said it because this is the truth).

I have no problem paying for Doctors, Nurses, ect. programs in fields necessary and short with the student providing a set hours of community service as repayment after graduation, but wasting billions in taxpayer money on useless degree programs is a complete and utter waste. A huge waste.

I understand the faculties and school administrators would LOVE that. But really, what good is "free college" for a degree that is useless? Why pay for that crap?

Better question, why should I pay for useless classes for someone else. I have 4 kids of my own to support.

What about technical programs for employment?

Why doesn't the military build one less f-22 that doesn't work?

The real cost of education is cost of living whole attending school without support from your family.

a reply to: KingKelson

I'll chip in...

In my country...college is free. There are quotas of how many students they accept every year...you can still pay for it to go around quotas.

We have student dorms, but its nothing like American campuses. They are almost free, subsidized by the state. I think it costs something like 100 $ per month.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

That makes a ton of sense because student housing in the US is expensive and cost of living in a college area is very expensive.

a reply to: KingKelson

I am not against people getting free college as I think having an educated society is of benefit to everyone. What I am against is calling it 'free college' and then making me pay for it through taxes. That isn't free.

a reply to: Metallicus

Are you saying your mad because they are labeling it free when it means it's being paid for through taxes?

Does that mean the student ends up paying their loan back eventually?

How much thought have you put into it?

a reply to: onequestion

I mean taxing me to pay for your college and then calling it free is BS. All you are doing us making me pay for your college. If there is a way to make it actually free then sure it would be a great idea.

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: onequestion

I mean taxing me to pay for your college and then calling it free is BS. All you are doing us making me pay for your college. If there is a way to make it actually free then sure it would be a great idea.

You pay for my college and I'll pay for your retirement and then we can call it even ok?

originally posted by: onequestion

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: onequestion

I mean taxing me to pay for your college and then calling it free is BS. All you are doing us making me pay for your college. If there is a way to make it actually free then sure it would be a great idea.

You pay for my college and I'll pay for your retirement and then we can call it even ok?

I already paid for my retirement.

originally posted by: KingKelson
So regarding free college, what is it that other countries do/have that we don't in America? And im not talking about higher taxes and all that, what about the schools and education itself is different? As far as I know, in my limited experience is the college sports scene as well as all the services provided by American colleges. Now I have looked into this but that's what it seems since I don't hear about the EU college basketball or football league. So would it be safe to say that in order to bring college tuition down maybe we should separate the athletic institutions from the acedemic?

College Sports teams bring in up to $120 MILLION in revenue. How would taking that away help? (top 10 average over $100 million each college)

a reply to: KingKelson


I come from a small nation, which does have higher education fully funded by the government. Unless, you pass the subject in time (during the semester you declared it), it is free, otherwise you have to pay for the subject, although credit point are not too expensive, roughly 30 dollars per credit point (most subjects give 3-6 credit points , for bachelors 180 is needed, for masters 120). Government does give a limited amount of spots though. Although anyone with above average intelligence, even average, can pretty easily get to government-tuition spot.


-The campuses are cheap. Getting a room at the dorm costs around 3-6 times less than the average rent price near the university or in the city.

-Nobody has to buy books or materials. Everything can be gotten from the library.

-Sports teams do exist, even at highest levels of the nation, although compared to USA, the importance of these is minimal and getting a sports scholarship or something like that is minimal. Athletes are treated just as the same as any other student with the expection that sometimes they do get deadline extensions due to competions or international travels.

- When it comes to useless classes, there are not many like that. When it comes to STEM degrees, of course certain subjects can be non-engineer ones, but these do give broader horizon and are necessary for becoming better engineer in my eyes or leader at some day, for example Philosophy (which gives better understanding of logic), one legal subject (with the focus on intellectual property), economics (micro/macro economics + student company (full analysis of the specific market + business plan). There are no "random classes" as I have heard from US friends. Generally from the 180 credit points one needs for bachelors roughly 10-15 counts as other classes, for example sports). Although one can take as many extra-classes as they want. I have friends who have even taken 300-350 credit points worth of subjects during bachelors. To graduate you need to get 165-170 from the subjects of your expertise (some or voluntary, some are not) and can take as many others as you can. One can also take subjects from other universities which are government-funded if they want.

- When it comes to quality, I would say generally it is not bad. There are opportunities for working on high-tech projects. All the opportunities are there for receiving high-quality educations.

-In addition, the university gives a variety of options for extracurricular activites, whether taking part in student organisations (organising international/local events). When one wants to do a start-up, they are given contacts of experts, know-how, even rooms with technology so that they could work on their projects.

I have not much experience with the US universities. I have worked their on projects, but I have not studied there. Personally, I would say I am satisfied with the education I received here.

The college situation in the US is broken. College charge tuition proportional to the availability of government grants and loans. These are awarded on a sliding scale determined by the income of the family. If you have a high family income the available money will be low because the schools assume you have the ability to pay. On the other hand, a family with a small income will have more loans and grants offered to them.

Tuition varies with college and program. Some Ivy League schools charge exorbitant tuition to restrict the class of students who apply. Schools like Harvard/ MIT have endowments in the multi-billion dollar range and still charge huge amounts of tuition. They could, for the most part, charge nothing to attend. Many elite schools are in this category.

My tuition in the mid 1960s was $600 per year for a under graduate degree. The tuition was reasonable enough for me to pay for school as I went. After my military service I attended a much larger school in Cincinnati where the tuition was $265 a quarter. With the GI Bill and working nights again I left school with no loans. My wife was another story. She attended a private college on the west side of town and the tuition was $2500 a semester. It was still affordable.

Our oldest children were a different experience. One attended the same school that I attended 25 years earlier. The family income made grants impossible and we had to pay the full amount. She received a useless degree and spent another two years getting another degree. The final damage was $10K for the first 4 years and $15K her last two. My son went to college to party! Like my wife he went to a private school and the tuition was painful for five years. It was an average of $20K per year in 1999 dollars. Luckily, my youngest son went to school on the GI Bill.

As I see it today, education is the problem. Everyone goes to college wanting a good job...it is a myth. How many times has someone on ATS complained of no jobs after graduation. Back in the early 1970s the same complaints were routine. I swept floors for a year and never worked in my field after graduation. The only areas you might expect a job offer is in medicine or law or other very specific degrees.

Too many kids go to college who don't belong. This gives rise to the expensive basket weaving courses at flight by night storefront colleges. The kids leave owing $40K for a job earning $20K a year. Their finances never recover from this mistake!

originally posted by: Cabin
- When it comes to useless classes, there are not many like that. When it comes to STEM degrees, of course certain subjects can be non-engineer ones, but these do give broader horizon and are necessary for becoming better engineer in my eyes or leader at some day, for example Philosophy (which gives better understanding of logic), one legal subject (with the focus on intellectual property), economics (micro/macro economics + student company (full analysis of the specific market + business plan). There are no "random classes" as I have heard from US friends. Generally from the 180 credit points one needs for bachelors roughly 10-15 counts as other classes, for example sports). Although one can take as many extra-classes as they want. I have friends who have even taken 300-350 credit points worth of subjects during bachelors. To graduate you need to get 165-170 from the subjects of your expertise (some or voluntary, some are not) and can take as many others as you can. One can also take subjects from other universities which are government-funded if they want.

The whole useless class thing in US education is overblown. I've got about 300 semester credits (at 3 credits/class roughly) and I would say under 10% of that has actually been outright useless filler classes. Lots of what people in the US consider to be useless are the general education classes like writing classes, philosophy, and economics (to use your examples).

I've actually found the opposite to be the case in US universities. There's so much pressure to streamline programs and get things down to the minimum number of credit hours required (in large part to bring costs down) that the programs are actually deficient. It's most common for colleges in the US to require 120 credit hours at 3 hours per class, so 40 classes total. When you consider that most in major programs will be around 15 classes, then another 20 for your writing (usually 4 classes), math (usually 4), scienece (usually 2), economics, psychology, history, philosophy, law, etc it doesn't leave all that much room for filler classes. Because of this, what most people in the US are generally pushing to cut are the writing classes, science, math, and so on.

originally posted by: onequestion

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: onequestion

I mean taxing me to pay for your college and then calling it free is BS. All you are doing us making me pay for your college. If there is a way to make it actually free then sure it would be a great idea.

You pay for my college and I'll pay for your retirement and then we can call it even ok?

I have a better one actually.


If you end up making more money than the average college graduate WITHOUT having gone to college then you are refunded the average tuition cost.


Metallicus: I am a Libertarian through & through, but having lived in Europe and traveled nearly every nation in the EU. I must say that they are excellent at keeping corruption down, and even if you pay your own tuition in many European countries, you're only looking at a few thousand $ per year. EU social systems often work well because of their homogeneous societies.

As I've said many times before, European systems don't work in America because of many reasons, but demographics, culture and accountability are big ones. Students in Finland who are eligible for free tuition often work a job and pay the regular tuition because they feel a social responsibility to do so. Strange huh?


My own business partner went to school there and got a much higher quality education at zero personal cost, while my brother got the same degree here in the US from Ai, and is in debt $90K to a school that would rather simply cash checks than actually help students get connected with people in the industry to network and further themselves.


Here's the thing though. You're acting like YOURE the one paying for someone elses education, but since most EU countries have a stepped tax bracket system just like the US, if you're successful in college, then you'll be the one paying a higher tax bracket to pay back your own education anyway.


So in fact, the stepped tax bracket system is a perfect match with a tax-funded college education system. (Note: I don't really personally support either one)

I once took an 8th grade graduation test from I think it was 1936, and it was harder than any test I remember in high school ( I graduated 2000). And I know more college educated morons than I can count. So for me personally, I think the solution is getting real education back into HIGH SCHOOLS and get rid of kids who don't want to be there. Like if you're not into learning chemistry and higher math, then pick your apprenticeship and OFF YOU GO!! And there is zero shame in making lots of money in HVAC, plumbing, carpentry or Electrician work!!!

With less kids remaining in the classrooms, and the remaining ones WANTING to learn rather than disrupt, the classwork can move faster and even get into college level education and career connections by age 18-19, so then kids come out of HIGH SCHOOL doing STEM work and making $50-70k.


See, the average human organism knows everything they need to survive a decent life by the time they are 12.

After that it's up to you if you wanna shut your mouth, open your ears and learn how to be more than average.

a reply to: Metallicus

Agreed!
We already pay a hefty tax for the community college in our area....and they still have to pay a good sized tuition.