Of Norsemen And Blackmen:

Recently quite a few Norse legends and historical flicks are making their presence felt on my cable ch, and I am all for a good sword & Sandals story anytime in any culture, but remembering the meltdown because of Idris Elba's portrayal of Heimdall with accusations of cultural appropriation, I sided with those who said he shouldn't have been Black and to an extent I still do, especially for that particular hero God who was described as the whitest of the Norse Gods,however Beowulf the return To The Shield lands is the most multi-culti of them all one of the major tribe of Norsemen is the Varney made up of Black and brown folks, and recently Vikings the series introduced a random but beautiful Asian lady captured in France who I suspect will be Ragnor's next love interest ,which on the face of it is a little bit more believable than an entire tribe of Blacks or very dark-skinned folks wandering far beyond the Mediterranean coast.
At this point you are probably saying Spider get to point! are you saying that Norsemen are Black?? my answer is no! not typically anyway, but what if some of the myths of dark people in the far North were memories of an older archaic darker population not entirely mixed out by the liter skinned golden haired and carrot tops well into early historic periods, remember according to some white skin in modern humans is very recent within the last 7000yrs
Was this the first blue-eyed man? 7,000-year-old DNA reveals European and African traits

La Brana 1 shows genetic similarities to Scandinavians and also shared a common ancestor with people who lived in Siberia more than 20,000 years ago.

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...
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a reply to: Spider879

We do know that the Vikings travelled the waterways right down into Russia and could possibly have gone as far as Siberia. I suspect the Northern climate was pretty hostile in parts and good in others, so perhaps we haven't considered how far ancient people travelled in the North as opposed to how far they probably travelled in the Southern Hemisphere.

I admit to finding the Beowolf programme strangely uncomfortable because of my learning that the Norse were white. To see black and Asian intermingling is odd in early times and so far North but I put it down to the inevitable push of multiculturalism onto my culture. Yes I find it culturally offensive but no I understand why and accept it - its honest odd feelings about this issue.

Its very interesting to think that there may be genetic similarities between Scandinavians and Siberians. I rather think though that the Siberians must have been terrific travellers and we in the West don't know the extent of their travel and trade because of the past blocked relationship with Russian which existed for decades. Our past is so shrouded so I suspect many ideas about it are going to have to change as we do more genetic testing.

Contacts between Blacks including Africans did took place in historic times, the Norsemen did trade and plunder both side the of the Mediterranean coast land where they certainly would and did encounter Black folks, some of whom they would take back to their icy homelands, this one passage need looking into.

Orkneyinga saga

Moors vs Vikings

Once both parties were on board there was fierce fighting,the people on the Dromond being Saracens,whom we called infdels of Mohammed, among them a good many black men,who put up a strong resistance.

Earling,honored aimer of spears,eagerly advanced toward the vassel in victory,with banners of blood;the black worriors,brave lads we captured or killed,crimsoning our blades,busy with this Dromond business our blades we bloodied on the blacks.

A few of the swarthy Norsemen could very well be descendants of the earlier archaic population or newcomers captured then integrated into the population, we know from history that when the Norsemen now proper Christians called Normans took over Sicily they integrated the Moors into their administration , this was the Hohenstaufen dynasty formed under Roger II who took Sicily away from them he did the smart thing of not side lining them but made them valuable allies.

Yohannis Moor viser of Sicily under Roger II his over lord,

A Black Norman Knight ,
This pic is from David Mc Ritchies book Blacks in Britain ancient and Modern, he lays out dark skinned northerners about 100yrs ago, will look for quotes if I can find some.

a reply to: Shiloh7

ts very interesting to think that there may be genetic similarities between Scandinavians and Siberians. I rather think though that the Siberians must have been terrific travellers and we in the West don't know the extent of their travel and trade because of the past blocked relationship with Russian which existed for decades. Our past is so shrouded so I suspect many ideas about it are going to have to change as we do more genetic testing.

Well there is a reason that Europe and Asia is combined in anthropological terms as Eurasia, this was bought home fully to me recently when I met a young Afghani couple that I mistook for Japanese.

a reply to: Spider879

Realistically speaking, there were people from many different locations abroad all over Europe during the times previous to, and after the Roman occupation of Britain. Many were travellers, in it for the thrill, or under orders, many were salespersons, caught in a storm and tossed off course from a regular trade route.

It is only in these modern times that we find the concept difficult, because we have been misled so thoroughly by certain aspects of western culture, including most notably the period during which slavery became acceptable for a time. Much propagandist nonsense was spread at the time, which managed to cause something entirely natural (the idea that people from all over the world were not strangers to our ancestors), to become unbelievable.

It is the case that people of various skin tones were often made welcome in Europe and Britain in the deeper mists of time, and were not treated as any different to anyone else.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I'm finding that to be the case all over the world , while trying not to get into hyper diffusionism. the below is from David Mc Ritchie over a hundred years ago.
The Theory.

Fairy Euhemerism, as developed by MacRitchie attempts to rationally explain the origin of fairies in British folklore and regards fairies as being a folk-memory of a "small-statured pre-Celtic race" or what Tylor theorised as possible folk memories of the aborigines of Britain.MacRitchie's theory subsequently became known in the late 19th century by folklorists as the "Ethnological or Pygmy Theory". The euhemeristic theory of fairies became considerably popular through MacRitchie's key works The Testimony of Tradition (1890) and Fians, Fairies and Picts (1893).Different theories however in the late 19th century and early 20th century surfaced concerning the racial origin of the proposed dwarf aborigines of Britain and these theories ranged from proposing that they were real African Pygmies, Eskimos or a short statured Mediterranean race. MacRitchie himself argued in his Testimony of Tradition, under a chapter subheading entitled "A Hairy Race" (p. 167) that they were somewhat connected to the Lapps or Eskimos, but were a distinct race because of their very long beards, concluding: "one seems to see the type of a race that was even more like the Ainu than the Lapp, or the Eskimo, although closely connected in various ways with all of these" (p. 173). In MacRitchie's view the indigenous population of Britain were thus a "quasi-European" Ainu race, with minor Mongoloid traits who he considered ancestral to the Picts, a view earlier proposed by Walter Scott.The identification of fairies with Picts, MacRitichie based primarily on the earlier accounts by Adam of Bremen and the Historia Norwegiæ which describe the Picts of Orkney as "only a little exceeding pygmies in stature".MacRitchie also discovered through the The Orcadian Sketch-Book by Walter Traill Dennison (1880) that legends across Scotland describe the homes (usually underground dwellings) of the fairies as "Pict's Houses" and so he believed the Picts were literally the basis of fairies in British folklore
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Spider879

I am not religious in the conventional sense whatsoever but something in the bible that has always fascinated me is the bit in Genesis that says "the world was fully populated then". Now in my mind were this so then I expect people were travelling all over the world trading and generally moving if either they felt like a change or had to for some reason.

As a family we have moved a number of times either for work or other reasons such as we chose to.

What we do have is a huge gap in our historical past and so much we can't explain, which for those of us who are curious about it, would be great if we could fill in some of the blanks that our history academics seem selectively blind to.

Something I remember at school being told about was that the Celts in Ireland were often red headed etc etc (I had a catholic schooling), but I knew a lot of Irish who were dark haired and eyed. But apparently part of the Spannish Armada sailed around the Irish coast and sunk so many appear to have settled there hence just a small reason for different genetics to become amalgamated into the people of that area. Throughout history I expect this has happened. I know my cousin had his dna tested and his branch of the family came from Eastern Europe originally and gradually moved throughout Europe to England dating back some considerable time even with a knight (something he is very proud of).

I think the problem surfaced around the time of the European slavery era.
There were plenty of black people in England, but they were ignored by painters etc.
The Royal Navy in 1805 was 15% manned by former slaves, Wellington's army in 1815 had 10% or thereabouts.
Those that survived their service to the crown settled down and over time their descendents became more white until these days some people are shocked to discover that they had black ancestors.

As for Beowulf, return to the shield lands...What a risible attempt at drama that was, I couldn't bear it anymore after episode 3. They even tried to make the titles look like Game of Thrones...How pathetic. Such a pity that the writers for that were obviously rejects from some fanfic forum.

Vikings, on the other hand...Makes Sunday special

a reply to: Spider879

Is it possible these stories/myths came from ancient Egypt? Or have a similar source?

Just read an article about a possible trade connection in ancient times between the people of the North(Scandinavia) and the South(N-Africa).
Beads Found in 3,400-year-old Nordic Graves Were Made by King Tut's Glassmaker

a reply to: Shiloh7

I feel the same way every time that I see a biblical epic on TV (or in theaters) and the 'holy lands' are filled with bright-white actors. But to me, that is more understandable, especially in the older movies, because of the America was back then (although I'm not at all condoning it)--modern movies, though, I don't give a pass.

But in contemporary films, to take what is relatively accepted facts (like the color of people's skin in certain areas of the world at certain time periods) and misrepresent that in the name of a multi-cultural agenda that some people think needs pushed into our psyche is, to me, unacceptable.

I just wish that history could be portrayed accurately the vast majority of the time, but sadly, accuracy is often (but not always) set aside in favor of drama and political correctness. I find that to be massively disappointing.

Yes, there were people from all over Eurasia and Africa that intermingled and crossed paths and whatever, so I guess in the instance of the OP, it would depend on how that group of dark-skinned people are portrayed in the show as to whether or not it was even remotely believable--but then again, I'm no anthropologist or expert on migration patterns and melanin levels throughout human history, so maybe I'm basing my concerns on antiquated information.

But I do know this fairly confidently--melanin levels in the skin are a direct result of generations of exposure to different levels of direct sunlight. Obviously, the farther away from the equator, the lower the levels of melanin in the skin, so it would stand to reason that there would not be an indigenous population of dark-skinned people that far north of the equator.

originally posted by: intergalactic fireBeads Found in 3,400-year-old Nordic Graves Were Made by King Tut's Glassmaker

King Tut?!

He's my favorite honky...

originally posted by: intergalactic fire
a reply to: Spider879

Is it possible these stories/myths came from ancient Egypt? Or have a similar source?

Just read an article about a possible trade connection in ancient times between the people of the North(Scandinavia) and the South(N-Africa).
Beads Found in 3,400-year-old Nordic Graves Were Made by King Tut's Glassmaker

Wow!! dude this is deserving a thread all on it's own, but I would caution against direct contact not that it's totally out if the question, just that a relay type system of trade is more probable , as for Northern Mythologies being sourced from KMT I think not, although some characters from other African Mythologies are very similar , example Thor have similar characteristics as Shango the God of Lightning , and Esu Elegba is a trickster god not unlike Loki but in any case I think it would be a stretch to link the two, but great find tho for beads connection..

a reply to: Spider879

It is actually old news as this was a re-posted article from last year Ancient Egyptian blue glass beads reached Scandinavia
but it raises some questions both on religious believe, global trade connections and knowledge in general.
How far did these trade routes go? What knowledge was kept from the original sources of the material? What trade/travel stories were told at the markets which maybe evolved into myths?

The Egyptian beads in a Norse grave is not very surprising as there was a heavy Norse population in Constantinople from the 10th century on. These Norseman were the Varangian guard. As they were based in Constantinople in is by no small leap to say there was an abundance of Egyptian artifacts being traded there. It has also been proven that before then Norseman travelled to that area, not by a sea route through the Mediteranean but by the river system, through Russia. In saying that you could suppose they did not just travel south but east as well.
That being said archeologists have found a population (blue eyed, blond people) that lived in the Taklamakan region (that's northern China) hundreds of years ago.
As for traded goods I have a coin from the 3rd century that was found near my home in the middle of England that was minted in Antioch. Now with the coin must have come people and goods. So without much guessing if these goods and people could come 3000 miles west from Antioch then goods and people could have come 3000 miles from the south of Antioch, ergo- goods and people could have travelled 6000 miles from southern Africa to middle England.
Also in the Roman army they had cohorts that were made up of men from their provinces like Carthage and Egypt and I would think they would have had a few black warriors among them and as was the Roman way these foriegn cohorts were only used on the far flung sections of their empire so an Egyptian company could have been stationed in Gaul or England.

a reply to: crayzeed

Yes off course you are right I just posted on European Mummies in a thread couple of days ago, and some one just reminded me that Thuya ,Tut's gramps on his mom's side did carry D2S1338 = 27 Swedish and NW Spain per popSTR ,

Although very low in comparison to his central African connection none the less is still present , and I may have been overly cautious in my response to intergalactic fire about direct trade, I may have been showing my temporal bias, for the Phoenicians did trade tin in places like Cornwall and where they went the kemetians could too , keeping in mind they were subject to the them for most of their history.