Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago?

a reply to: punkinworks10

No, I haven't been on his blog for a couple of weeks so thanks for bringing that to my attention. It's definitely an interesting perspective. I said it a long time ago, that when genetics got to the point where we can amplify the smallest fragments and isolate the contaminants, we were all going to be in for a big surprise and that our paleo history was going to look very different in a few decades. The days of referring to the history of our genus as a family tree are fast coming to an end. It's going to look more like a braided stream when all the pieces fall into place and. I would argue that it's looking like such already. I just finished Svante Paabo's book on Neanderthals and the whole beginning of the book goes into detail about how they were able to finally get a sample when nobody thought it would be possible and then the painstaking effort he and his team went through to get I depend at verification of those results.

a reply to: peter vlar

I do believe that even more surprises in store for athropology in the future.
We are just starting to unravel the knot.
I'll have to add that to the read list.
I've been reading some interesting little tidbits about neaderthals from french sites.
One of the things that caught my attention, was the fairly large variety of nocturnal animals, such as mice and voles, in their middens. It re enforced my opinion that neanderthal were a semi noctural or diurnal hunters. Their eye and brain structure seem to be adapted to low light conditions. Imagine just how dark it must have been in those cold forests.
I also had another thought after reading a paper on how the neanderthal shoulder is built in such a fashion that limits their ability to throw over hand, we find very early atl atls in populations that either have a highlevel of HSN ancestry(native americans) or lived in a region that had HSN persistance (northern spain and france and the solutreans). Is the atl atl a HSN invention to be able to throw a spear over a longer distance, as their habitat changed from forest, where they could hide and ambush prey, to tundra where there was nothing to hide you from the prey.

I was also surprised to find that beveled ivory rods have been found at some HSN sites in france, just like you find at solutrean sites in france.

I've got a couple books I need to finish. I started Clube and Napiers "The Cosmic Serpent" and an obscure book on cataclysm mythos from around the world, just before i got my new puppy. Man its like having a kid, but she's growing up quick so I'll get back to them soon. "The Cosmic Serpent" is very good and lays the astronomical foundations for the YDB event, and subsequent encounters with the debris of the broken comet.

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: peter vlar

I do believe that even more surprises in store for athropology in the future.
We are just starting to unravel the knot.

The better the resources and testing methods become, the more and faster the data is becoming available. The current work being done is moving quicker than the Leakeys did in the 40's and 50's. It's the most interesting time for Anthropology since I started studying Australopithecines in 10th grade.

I'll have to add that to the read list.

Considering that it's written by one of the worlds most important evolutionary geneticists, it's not anywhere near as dry and boring as you would think.

I've been reading some interesting little tidbits about neaderthals from french sites.
One of the things that caught my attention, was the fairly large variety of nocturnal animals, such as mice and voles, in their middens. It re enforced my opinion that neanderthal were a semi noctural or diurnal hunters. Their eye and brain structure seem to be adapted to low light conditions. Imagine just how dark it must have been in those cold forests.

Yeah, the Increased size of their visual cortex along with the sheer volume of the occipital orbit is a pretty good indicator of their ability to function in much lower light levels than we are used to today.

I also had another thought after reading a paper on how the neanderthal shoulder is built in such a fashion that limits their ability to throw over hand, we find very early atl atls in populations that either have a highlevel of HSN ancestry(native americans) or lived in a region that had HSN persistance (northern spain and france and the solutreans). Is the atl atl a HSN invention to be able to throw a spear over a longer distance, as their habitat changed from forest, where they could hide and ambush prey, to tundra where there was nothing to hide you from the prey.

The oldest atlatl I know of is 400 KA and from Germany. It was thought to have been used by Heidelbergensis but with the new genetic data indicating an Archaic HN at 430 KA in Sima de Los Hueros this could very well be an invention of HN. There certainly were no HS anywhere at all let alone Europe 400 KA so it makes me rethink my usual stance regarding the loss of social communicative skills with the visual cortex taking up more room. If they were using atlatl's they would have been able to organize more complex hunting strategies.

I was also surprised to find that beveled ivory rods have been found at some HSN sites in france, just like you find at solutrean sites in france.

Please post links if possible. I haven't heard of that previously.

I've got a couple books I need to finish. I started Clube and Napiers "The Cosmic Serpent" and an obscure book on cataclysm mythos from around the world, just before i got my new puppy. Man its like having a kid, but she's growing up quick so I'll get back to them soon. "The Cosmic Serpent" is very good and lays the astronomical foundations for the YDB event, and subsequent encounters with the debris of the broken comet.

I'll have to check that out since the YD is a recurring topic. Off topic but, what kind of pup did you acquire?

a reply to: peter vlar

Peter the bit about beveled rods was in a write up about a french site, that has become sort of a neanderthal national park, with exhibits and recreations. Ive been try to back track it, it might have been on Donsmaps.Ive got a theory about the origins of the ivory rods, they were originally used a thrusting spear point, specifically for thick hided animals like elephants and rhino. Ivory is much more resiliant than stone and would be less likley to break and penetrate further before binding up in the hafting materials. When you look at the primitive points they would only be able to penetrat a couple of inches before they ran into the hafting, thus stopping any further penetration. While a 12" long thin ivory point would go in 9-10" before hitting hafting.
It would also make for safer hunting. You go in as a group the mammoth gets stabbed deeply a few dozens times, then you let nature and blood loss doe the work and wait for it to die. This hunting strategy can be seen in african hunters with their long thin spear points.
I was unaware of the 400,00k year old atl atl. That is very fascinating, i was aslo just reading something where possible bolo balls were found at one spanish site.
My new puppy is a small pit, she was a stray that came in through the pet door and jumped in bed with me a few months ago. I was going to take her to the pound, but she found my lost truck keys, that had been lost for a week, on the day she showed up.

a reply to: punkinworks10

Ok, I have to admit an error on my end. I should have known it was too good to be true! I was going off of memory regarding 400 KA atlatl in Germany. The article I had read was discussing the history of Atlatl's and was talking about the oldest spears found in Germany at 400 KA and attributed them to Heidelbergensis. I somehow condensed early spears in with Atlatl so I was very wrong here and the oldest Atlatl are still relatively new at around 30 KA. Leave it to Wikipedia to give me the correct answer more clearly than the source material!

a reply to: peter vlar

I was just reading something, today, about atl atls and they were saying the oldest know example is from north africa and is about 25-40 ky old

According to archaeological evidence, the atlatl first made its appearance between 25 000 and 40 000 years ago in the region that today encompasses Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia. From here, it radiated outwards to Europe, Australia, Asia, and eventually the New World.

This page has a really good atl atl section

Atl Atls and woomeras

I'm leaning to an older age for atl atls, and the african ones are the radiated technology, as the early native american populations had already split from continental eurasian people by the time the atl atl shows up in europe, and there is evidence that native americans had the atl atl when they arrived. There are points coming from california, and nevada that are clearly atl atl points and are older than when beringia was open to south.