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Satan's "fall"
page: 2share:
Here's what Laz's research has come up with (part of my book-length manuscript):
Chapter 14 of Isaiah is mostly about Israel, Babylon, Assyria, and God’s judgment on each. In the midst of all this are some verses about “Lucifer.” Now we met up with Satan in the book of Job, and my KJV noted there that the name means “the adversary,” which strikes me as a title, not a name. Yet here in Isaiah, most folks think it is the same person being referred to, but no this time it’s Lucifer, and my KJV states that it literally means “Day Star.” Going from the Adversary to the Day Star is quite a leap, and it’s not likely to be the same person. Note that the context for this passage begins in verse 4: “That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon…” Then in verse 13, “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.” Two verses later, however, judgment is given: “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit [grave].” In verse 16 the question is raised, “…is this the man…?” Now most of us have been taught that Satan is a spirit being, but this passage shows this person to be mortal. For this reason I believe the person referred to in this passage to be NOT Satan, but the king of Babylon. I don’t care to stretch every text I can find to promote my thesis, unlike some. By the end of this essay, I think we will have found that Satan is a fairly minor character in the story, as he should be.
Now for the serious Bible student, I’d like to add a note of caution, to stay alert for the sleight-of-hand we so often find. First, as we saw above, is the bad translation: Adversary to Satan and Day Star to Lucifer. Then we get the bad interpretation, usually taken in a verse or two ripped from its proper context - in the present case, to point out the Devil wherever possible. Often, a look at the surrounding text will support the given interpretation, or not. If you understand the message and themes of the whole Word of God, you will tend to notice when “theo-illogical” tricks are being pulled.
Chapter 14 of Isaiah is mostly about Israel, Babylon, Assyria, and God’s judgment on each. In the midst of all this are some verses about “Lucifer.” Now we met up with Satan in the book of Job, and my KJV noted there that the name means “the adversary,” which strikes me as a title, not a name. Yet here in Isaiah, most folks think it is the same person being referred to, but no this time it’s Lucifer, and my KJV states that it literally means “Day Star.” Going from the Adversary to the Day Star is quite a leap, and it’s not likely to be the same person. Note that the context for this passage begins in verse 4: “That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon…” Then in verse 13, “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.” Two verses later, however, judgment is given: “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit [grave].” In verse 16 the question is raised, “…is this the man…?” Now most of us have been taught that Satan is a spirit being, but this passage shows this person to be mortal. For this reason I believe the person referred to in this passage to be NOT Satan, but the king of Babylon. I don’t care to stretch every text I can find to promote my thesis, unlike some. By the end of this essay, I think we will have found that Satan is a fairly minor character in the story, as he should be.
Now for the serious Bible student, I’d like to add a note of caution, to stay alert for the sleight-of-hand we so often find. First, as we saw above, is the bad translation: Adversary to Satan and Day Star to Lucifer. Then we get the bad interpretation, usually taken in a verse or two ripped from its proper context - in the present case, to point out the Devil wherever possible. Often, a look at the surrounding text will support the given interpretation, or not. If you understand the message and themes of the whole Word of God, you will tend to notice when “theo-illogical” tricks are being pulled.
a reply to: Lazarus Short
I'm not certain who you are referring to but I know I personally have done nothing of the sort. Adversary is what satan means in Hebrew, I assure you that and that Lucifer Day Star Light Bringer or Venus, however you choose to translate it changes absolutely nothing. You should be specific with your accusations as it is rather chicken ish of you to not address whoever you meant specifically so they can address what is... slight of hand? What is that? An insult in the guise of a bad metaphor.
You impress no one.
Might I add that your use of the term "theo-illogically is neither cute, funny or accurste. My guess is your in the field of theology and somehow attached to Christianity. Nevertheless I wont be replying to directly again, so as not to waste my time. Life is too precious to mettle with fools and the like. Good day to you.
I'm not certain who you are referring to but I know I personally have done nothing of the sort. Adversary is what satan means in Hebrew, I assure you that and that Lucifer Day Star Light Bringer or Venus, however you choose to translate it changes absolutely nothing. You should be specific with your accusations as it is rather chicken ish of you to not address whoever you meant specifically so they can address what is... slight of hand? What is that? An insult in the guise of a bad metaphor.
You impress no one.
Might I add that your use of the term "theo-illogically is neither cute, funny or accurste. My guess is your in the field of theology and somehow attached to Christianity. Nevertheless I wont be replying to directly again, so as not to waste my time. Life is too precious to mettle with fools and the like. Good day to you.
edit on 29-2-2016 by Gezus because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Gezus
The Fall of Lucifer ('bearer of the light') in later Christian theology seems to be a Midrashic expansion extracted from 2 main texts, Isaiah 14:12-15 & Hezekiel 28:11-17
In the King James translation, verse 12 reads:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Here is where we find the name Lucifer. The term Lucifer was popularized in English from this King James translation. However, the name does not come from the Hebrew or even from the Greek translation (Septuagint), but from the fourth century AD Latin translation of this verse:
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.
But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words: lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring." So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light. The same word is used in other places in the Latin Vulgate to translate Hebrew terms that mean "bright," especially associated with the sky:
Job 11:17: And your life will be brighter than the noonday; its darkness will be like the morning.
I have included the Masoretic text of the Hebrew consonantal text (c. 1009 CE) as well as an English translation for reference in this discussion.
Isaiah 14:12-15
ֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ לָאָרֶץ, חוֹלֵשׁ עַל-גּוֹיִם
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the Dawn ! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the Gentiles !
וְאַתָּה אָמַרְתָּ בִלְבָבְךָ, הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶעֱלֶה--מִמַּעַל לְכוֹכְבֵי-אֵל, אָרִים
כִּסְאִי; וְאֵשֵׁב בְּהַר-מוֹעֵד, בְּיַרְכְּתֵי צָפוֹן
And thou saidst in thy heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, above the stars of El will I exalt my Throne, and I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the North (Zaphon)
אֶעֱלֶה, עַל-בָּמֳתֵי עָב; אֶדַּמֶּה, לְעֶלְיוֹן.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.'
אַךְ אֶל-שְׁאוֹל תּוּרָד, אֶל-יַרְכְּתֵי-בוֹר
Yet thou shalt be brought down to the nether-world, to the depths of She'ol !"
Ezekiel 28:11-17
כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, אַתָּה חוֹתֵם תָּכְנִית, מָלֵא חָכְמָה וּכְלִיל יֹפִי.
"Thus saith YHWH Elohim; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. "
בְּעֵדֶן גַּן-אֱלֹהִים הָיִיתָ, כָּל-אֶבֶן יְקָרָה מְסֻכָתֶךָ אֹדֶם פִּטְדָה וְיָהֲלֹם תַּרְשִׁישׁ שֹׁהַם וְיָשְׁפֵה, סַפִּיר נֹפֶךְ, וּבָרְקַת וְזָהָב; מְלֶאכֶת תֻּפֶּיךָ וּנְקָבֶיךָ בָּךְ, בְּיוֹם הִבָּרַאֲךָ כּוֹנָנוּ.
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of EL; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: "
אַתְּ-כְּרוּב--מִמְשַׁח, הַסּוֹכֵךְ; וּנְתַתִּיךָ, בְּהַר קֹדֶשׁ אֱלֹהִים הָיִיתָ--בְּתוֹךְ אַבְנֵי-אֵשׁ, הִתְהַלָּכְתָּ.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of EL; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
תָּמִים אַתָּה בִּדְרָכֶיךָ, מִיּוֹם הִבָּרְאָךְ, עַד-נִמְצָא עַוְלָתָה, בָּךְ
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
וָאֲחַלֶּלְךָ מֵהַר אֱלֹהִים וָאַבֶּדְךָ כְּרוּב הַסֹּכֵךְ, מִתּוֹךְ אַבְנֵי-אֵשׁ.
I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
גָּבַהּ לִבְּךָ בְּיָפְיֶךָ, שִׁחַתָּ חָכְמָתְךָ עַל-יִפְעָתֶךָ; עַל-אֶרֶץ הִשְׁלַכְתִּיךָ
Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness; I have cast thee to the ground,
Yet the 'morning star' has some Messianic aspects as well :
2 Peter 1:19: "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day should dawn, and the Day Star arise in your hearts:"
Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and Morning Star
The Fall of Lucifer ('bearer of the light') in later Christian theology seems to be a Midrashic expansion extracted from 2 main texts, Isaiah 14:12-15 & Hezekiel 28:11-17
In the King James translation, verse 12 reads:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Here is where we find the name Lucifer. The term Lucifer was popularized in English from this King James translation. However, the name does not come from the Hebrew or even from the Greek translation (Septuagint), but from the fourth century AD Latin translation of this verse:
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.
But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words: lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring." So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light. The same word is used in other places in the Latin Vulgate to translate Hebrew terms that mean "bright," especially associated with the sky:
Job 11:17: And your life will be brighter than the noonday; its darkness will be like the morning.
I have included the Masoretic text of the Hebrew consonantal text (c. 1009 CE) as well as an English translation for reference in this discussion.
Isaiah 14:12-15
ֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ לָאָרֶץ, חוֹלֵשׁ עַל-גּוֹיִם
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the Dawn ! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the Gentiles !
וְאַתָּה אָמַרְתָּ בִלְבָבְךָ, הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶעֱלֶה--מִמַּעַל לְכוֹכְבֵי-אֵל, אָרִים
כִּסְאִי; וְאֵשֵׁב בְּהַר-מוֹעֵד, בְּיַרְכְּתֵי צָפוֹן
And thou saidst in thy heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, above the stars of El will I exalt my Throne, and I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the North (Zaphon)
אֶעֱלֶה, עַל-בָּמֳתֵי עָב; אֶדַּמֶּה, לְעֶלְיוֹן.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.'
אַךְ אֶל-שְׁאוֹל תּוּרָד, אֶל-יַרְכְּתֵי-בוֹר
Yet thou shalt be brought down to the nether-world, to the depths of She'ol !"
Ezekiel 28:11-17
כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, אַתָּה חוֹתֵם תָּכְנִית, מָלֵא חָכְמָה וּכְלִיל יֹפִי.
"Thus saith YHWH Elohim; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. "
בְּעֵדֶן גַּן-אֱלֹהִים הָיִיתָ, כָּל-אֶבֶן יְקָרָה מְסֻכָתֶךָ אֹדֶם פִּטְדָה וְיָהֲלֹם תַּרְשִׁישׁ שֹׁהַם וְיָשְׁפֵה, סַפִּיר נֹפֶךְ, וּבָרְקַת וְזָהָב; מְלֶאכֶת תֻּפֶּיךָ וּנְקָבֶיךָ בָּךְ, בְּיוֹם הִבָּרַאֲךָ כּוֹנָנוּ.
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of EL; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: "
אַתְּ-כְּרוּב--מִמְשַׁח, הַסּוֹכֵךְ; וּנְתַתִּיךָ, בְּהַר קֹדֶשׁ אֱלֹהִים הָיִיתָ--בְּתוֹךְ אַבְנֵי-אֵשׁ, הִתְהַלָּכְתָּ.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of EL; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
תָּמִים אַתָּה בִּדְרָכֶיךָ, מִיּוֹם הִבָּרְאָךְ, עַד-נִמְצָא עַוְלָתָה, בָּךְ
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
וָאֲחַלֶּלְךָ מֵהַר אֱלֹהִים וָאַבֶּדְךָ כְּרוּב הַסֹּכֵךְ, מִתּוֹךְ אַבְנֵי-אֵשׁ.
I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
גָּבַהּ לִבְּךָ בְּיָפְיֶךָ, שִׁחַתָּ חָכְמָתְךָ עַל-יִפְעָתֶךָ; עַל-אֶרֶץ הִשְׁלַכְתִּיךָ
Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness; I have cast thee to the ground,
Yet the 'morning star' has some Messianic aspects as well :
2 Peter 1:19: "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day should dawn, and the Day Star arise in your hearts:"
Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and Morning Star
edit on 29-2-2016 by Sigismundus because: stutteringg commputerr keyyboardddddddd
a reply to: Gezus
No links or anything? How about something to support your claims? We are suppose to take your word, and only your word since you provided nothing to back up your claims, that these really are "f*** ups" as you put it, or perhaps you do not know what you are talking about and are just parroting someone else's words?
No links or anything? How about something to support your claims? We are suppose to take your word, and only your word since you provided nothing to back up your claims, that these really are "f*** ups" as you put it, or perhaps you do not know what you are talking about and are just parroting someone else's words?
originally posted by: 5StarOracle
Nope you are confused Gezus...
Lucifer existed in heaven and in the garden where things were perfect...He tried to destroy first in the garden and was cast down... Later he and his minions tried again to corrupt on earth and so they did infecting the pure blood of men causing the hybrid nephilm... The flood was caused and wiped almost all of them out the watchers helped after the flood one of the infected rose to power He was Nimrod or Asshur the hunter of men a murderous scum... It was he who built the tower of Babylon and was Satan in the flesh...The Lord came back down and confounded the people stupefied and scattered them across the earth...And so because of these new languages The memory and worship was continued by these people in thier new lands but they called him by different names... Osirus Apollyon Baal abbadon Zeus Saturn Venus Enlil Chronos Marduk etc he is the Father of Lies and all false religions... He has died his tomb has been found his dna has been taken his mortal wound shall be healed...All of this was done in attempt to spoil the pure blood of man in attempt to prevent Jesus to be born a true man.... So you see in those days there was great evil and they were playing with DNA... So as in the days of Noah so to will the end of days be... Nimrod is going to be brought back to life this is the Antichrist watch him to gain power in whatever country has his throne... here's a hint It was once Hitlers throne of power it has moved several times... I could ramble on but what's the point everybody thinks they know something or believes nothing at all... know this though... the time is short...
the throne of pergamon
Nimrod-Osirus-Apollyon-the antichrist and king of the nwo
I am very intrigued by what you have to say.
I think you should start a thread of your own.
You made more scene than what is in this one.
originally posted by: Gezus
a reply to: Lazarus Short
I'm not certain who you are referring to but I know I personally have done nothing of the sort. Adversary is what satan means in Hebrew, I assure you that and that Lucifer Day Star Light Bringer or Venus, however you choose to translate it changes absolutely nothing. You should be specific with your accusations as it is rather chicken ish of you to not address whoever you meant specifically so they can address what is... slight of hand? What is that? An insult in the guise of a bad metaphor.
You impress no one.
Might I add that your use of the term "theo-illogically is neither cute, funny or accurste. My guess is your in the field of theology and somehow attached to Christianity. Nevertheless I wont be replying to directly again, so as not to waste my time. Life is too precious to mettle with fools and the like. Good day to you.
Are you just looking to be insulted, or do you really not understand what a book/manuscript excerpt means? What it means is that it was certainly not addressed to you or to your post. Thicken your skin, man, and while you're at it, learn to punctuate.
a reply to: Gezus
You did this earlier, almost word for word, but as areyousirius360.
The name Lucifer is pre-Catholic.
A 'Lucifer' is Latinization, of a Greek translation of the original Hebrew.
The Hebrew word was Heylel, meaning "shining one/light bearer". Both Ezekiel and Isaiah mentioned it, and they wrote about 800 before Christ.
The Greek translation was "Heosphorus", meaning "bringer of dawn". This was translated as such 300 years before Christ.
The Latin translation was "Lucifer", meaning "morning star" or "light bringer" but also has connotation with the planet Venus. This was translated 382 years after Christ but it wasn't made the official Catholic Bible until the Council of Trent in 1545. So it wasn't "Catholic" until 1,163 years after it was translated.
But, as usual, you have been banned again.
You did this earlier, almost word for word, but as areyousirius360.
The name Lucifer is pre-Catholic.
A 'Lucifer' is Latinization, of a Greek translation of the original Hebrew.
The Hebrew word was Heylel, meaning "shining one/light bearer". Both Ezekiel and Isaiah mentioned it, and they wrote about 800 before Christ.
The Greek translation was "Heosphorus", meaning "bringer of dawn". This was translated as such 300 years before Christ.
The Latin translation was "Lucifer", meaning "morning star" or "light bringer" but also has connotation with the planet Venus. This was translated 382 years after Christ but it wasn't made the official Catholic Bible until the Council of Trent in 1545. So it wasn't "Catholic" until 1,163 years after it was translated.
But, as usual, you have been banned again.
(post by Mankind removed for a manners violation)
a reply to: 5StarOracle
I don't talk to stargazers and astral projecting lunatics. I'm just trying to learn a have fun. You seem angry, I wish you the best but seriously, lay off...whatever your on. Seriously. Get help.
And on that note, this is good bye, have a nice day and no, I wont need your 'help' but I hope you have a great day your an awesome person God bless you.
A
I don't talk to stargazers and astral projecting lunatics. I'm just trying to learn a have fun. You seem angry, I wish you the best but seriously, lay off...whatever your on. Seriously. Get help.
And on that note, this is good bye, have a nice day and no, I wont need your 'help' but I hope you have a great day your an awesome person God bless you.
A
originally posted by: Mankind
a reply to: chr0naut
Latin, the language Lucifer is from, wasnt even in existence at the time of Isaiahs penning. And the Jews weren't speaking Greek then either. So I will go ahead and file you under "doesn't know jack" file in my mind and move on.
I never suggested that the Latin and Greek translations were coincident with Isaiah or Ezekiel. I did date the translations in my post, so I'll assume you did not actually comprehend it.
But Erwin Schrödinger's cat wasn't even a kitten when the dinosaurs walked the Earth, so I'll file your rebuttal as 'wildly beside the point' and ignore you, gnosisfaith (or whatever your name of the moment is).
edit on 1/3/2016 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)
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-@TH3WH17ERABB17- -Q- ---TIME TO SHOW THE WORLD--- -Part- --44--
Dissecting Disinformation • 3353 • : Thoughtful3 -
Nigel Farage now the Most Favoured UK Politician
Regional Politics • 7 • : NorthOS -
President-Elect TRUMP Picks Former Florida A.G. PAM BONDI to be U.S. Attorney General.
2024 Elections • 58 • : WeMustCare -
Well, here we go red lines crossed Biden gives the go ahead to use long range missiles
World War Three • 330 • : putnam6 -
Little Johnny and Larry should team up
General Chit Chat • 4 • : ColeYounger2 -
Montelukast affects brain, caused 5 year old to attempt suicide
Medical Issues & Conspiracies • 11 • : marg6043 -
President-Elect DONALD TRUMP's 2nd-Term Administration Takes Shape.
Political Ideology • 240 • : WeMustCare