Answers for Atheists

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Want to break down that hour and half video for me?

If it's about opinions and belief without and real proof then I'll pass thanks.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777

originally posted by: TerryDon79
So, has anyone seen any "proof" of god in this thread yet?

I haven't, unless I missed something?

A supernatural entity, mathematician, physicist,not bound by space or time.

Francis Collins - The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence of Belief

youtu.be...

Is there evidence for belief? Are science and faith consistent ways of seeing the world? Join us as Dr. Francis Collins, world-renowned geneticist, physician, and Former Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute at the National Institutes of Health shares his journey from atheism to faith, propelled by science. His talk is followed by a Q&A session. The Veritas Forum at Caltech, 2009.

This guy is certainly a genius in the field of genetics, but i have poured over this lecture many times and at no point does he present any evidence for god. He only presents the complexity of life and claims that it couldn't have been done by anything else except the biblical god. He never shows why that is the case. This is a classic argument from incredulity.

He cannot imagine it any other way therefor he is obviously right in his assumptions.


This was a huge fail when it came out years ago.

Feel free to post the most convincing pieces of his argument. So they can be torn apart.

network.asa3.org...

American Scientific Affiliation

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
network.asa3.org...

American Scientific Affiliation

Yes it is.

I fail to see your point.

Is it that scientists can have faith in god? No one says that they can't.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
network.asa3.org...

American Scientific Affiliation

Yes, we know that many scientists believe in god. What we want to know is why. What is the evidence that they use to justify their position?

It's also important to point out that even these scientists cannot come to any consensus about the properties of these various gods which they believe in.

a reply to: Stormdancer777

Let me preface this with acknowledging that Dr. Collins is a brilliant geneticist as well as one of the nicest people I have ever had the pleasure to meet. But if you had watched the video, you would know that he starts speaking at 19 seconds in and its at 47 seconds that he states he isn't giving any proof tonight regarding god.

I fail to see how this is an appropriate rebuttal to someone asking where the proof of god or gods is within this thread if Dr. Collins begins his 90 minute lecture by stating that he isn't going to be offering any proof. Why? Because he knows there is no proof. He has faith.

His faith never crossed over into his work as a geneticist nor did it come into play or provide any conflict at the HGP because when working, he was a consummate professional who always utilized the scientific method. As someone who understands how science works and what the threshold is for proof, you're never going to find him offering any proof of what he has faith in. He can believe there is a god while simultaneously acknowledging that there is no proof of such.

I like to go outside ànd look into the sky, and try to grasp the fact, I EXIST, I'm in the universe, a spectator, conscious of something so grand, yet we take it for granted.

WHY?

WHY WAS I granted this experience?

For nothing?

A place reserved for us. To learn, to grow, to comprehend,

Why do we search and research, what are we looking for, What are we trying to remember, to figure out?

Night

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
I like to go outside ànd look into the sky, and try to grasp the fact, I EXIST, I'm in the universe, a spectator, conscious of something so grand, yet we take it for granted.

WHY?

WHY WAS I granted this experience?

For nothing?

A place reserved for us. To learn, to grow, to comprehend,

Why do we search and research, what are we looking for, What are we trying to remember, to figure out?

Night

I am also in awe of the universe and consequently my own existance as well as all life. It really is complex. I have never felt the need to ascert that something granted me this experience or that it was reserved for me by some being. I have never thought that there was some hidden purpose or secret being kept from me. Why do you ascribe these properties to the universe?

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
I like to go outside ànd look into the sky, and try to grasp the fact, I EXIST, I'm in the universe, a spectator, conscious of something so grand, yet we take it for granted.

WHY?

WHY WAS I granted this experience?

For nothing?

A place reserved for us. To learn, to grow, to comprehend,

Why do we search and research, what are we looking for, What are we trying to remember, to figure out?

Night

It's really not about you, or me, or anyone else.
None of us are that important.
We're the products of chance.

The rest comes down to 'the human condition' and wishful thinking.

Essentially, no one will notice when you're dead. The same applies to all of us.

The Universe doesn't care.

Much of the argument for and against god would fade away if those of faith would admit, it is simply that. Faith.
Secondly, If they would stop trying to convince everyone they somehow know this god personally, and their religion is the only one that is right. All others have been deceived.

Not many atheists will refuse to concede the possibility of an entity that fits the description of "god". Sure, it's possible. But the moment someone of faith tries to convince the atheist they must believe in their version of that entity, or suffer the consequences, the battle is on. Pretending you know this entity by reading a book written by men is delusional to an atheist.

If you believe, awesome. Good for you. Leave those who don't believe alone. Don't treat them like the next gem in your crown if you can convert them. And certainly don't tell them they're eternally damned by your deity. Your faith is a personal matter. Don't try to run everyone elses life with it. My lack of faith is also a personal matter, and I don't care if you believe in god. I'm happy for you. It's your right, just as it is mine. Lets leave it at that, and we'll all get along a lot better.

But that's not going to happen, is it? Because...religion.

a reply to: aorAki

Just to play the devil's advocate prove it.

I think you will find its nearly impossible to speak for what the universe does or does not or if it cares or doesn't care.

I think it can be summed up with this from Kant
Phenomena are the appearances, which constitute the our experience; noumena are the (presumed) things themselves, which constitute reality. All of our synthetic a priori judgments apply only to the phenomenal realm, not the noumenal. (It is only at this level, with respect to what we can experience, that we are justified in imposing the structure of our concepts onto the objects of our knowledge.) Since the thing in itself (Ding an sich) would by definition be entirely independent of our experience of it, we are utterly ignorant of the noumenal realm.

originally posted by: Klassified
Much of the argument for and against god would fade away if those of faith would admit, it is simply that. Faith.
Secondly, If they would stop trying to convince everyone they somehow know this god personally, and their religion is the only one that is right. All others have been deceived.

Not many atheists will refuse to concede the possibility of an entity that fits the description of "god". Sure, it's possible. But the moment someone of faith tries to convince the atheist they must believe in their version of that entity, or suffer the consequences, the battle is on. Pretending you know this entity by reading a book written by men is delusional to an atheist.

If you believe, awesome. Good for you. Leave those who don't believe alone. Don't treat them like the next gem in your crown if you can convert them. And certainly don't tell them they're eternally damned by your deity. Your faith is a personal matter. Don't try to run everyone elses life with it. My lack of faith is also a personal matter, and I don't care if you believe in god. I'm happy for you. It's your right, just as it is mine. Lets leave it at that, and we'll all get along a lot better.

But that's not going to happen, is it? Because...religion.

Completely agree.

I have no problem with deism or pantheism/spinozaism. Never have been evangalized by one and sometimes consider myself on the boarder of agnostic atheist or pantheist, even consider deism.

When I go to church with my grandma I get reminded how odd the whole thing seems to me. I wasn't raised religious so I am not angry with it but it doesn't move me much at all.

I am with Sam Harris that there are practices meditation and self searching that are not religious that have merit but it's just not for me.

a reply to: luthier


Nice one, though for the most part I can't decant Kant.

Essentially though, it doesn't matter, as for all intents and purposes (incense and porpoises for the New Agers) it 'appears' that the Universe doesn't care.

It's not like every time someone dies a star appears and Unicorns fart rainbows...

a reply to: luthier

Brilliant!! Ya gotta dig Kant man, dude was on his game.

He's right. We give everything it's meaning. Not because we somehow dictate or give meaning to reality itself but to our experience of that reality. On it's own reality is meaningless or it just is what it is. Our experience of it is where meaning is found.

originally posted by: randyvs
I thought a while before posting this and I went ahead
with only one real interest." I hope this helps "

In the words of King Crimson: "Confusion will be my epitaph".

I would counter that you didn't actually give this much thought at all, and in fact sat around thinking you were thinking, but not actually thinking.

You have no answers.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: luthier

Brilliant!! Ya gotta dig Kant man, dude was on his game.

He's right. We give everything it's meaning. Not because we somehow dictate or give meaning to reality itself but to our experience of that reality. On it's own reality is meaningless or it just is what it is. Our experience of it is where meaning is found.

Nice paraphrase of Kant.

a reply to: aorAki

I understand. You mean a guy with a beard isn't keeping score. I was just saying who really knows.

Another wise remark from Kant was the metaphysics is a dark ocean without shores or lighthouses strewn with many a philosophical wreck.

It's just an unscientific subject by nature. Not to say it doesnt take thought and reason to think through but science not so much. Which makes it a messy debate even without books and superstitions.

a reply to: mOjOm

Love him. Even the pictures of the guy he has an alien size head.

Over 300 years and philosophers still are in awe of the guy.

Spinoza too. Love that guy.

originally posted by: luthier

Another wise remark from Kant was the metaphysics is a dark ocean without shores or lighthouses strewn with many a philosophical wreck.

I love how these great thinkers of history worded stuff. Like Mark Twain would be another example. They have such a smooth and insightful way of wording how messed up reality can be. Or at least how we try and define it anyway.

a reply to: luthier

I'll have to check him out. That doesn't ring a bell.

One of my favorites of Kant is "What is Enlightenment". He really gives a no BS as to what it means without all the woo that is often attributed to such words.